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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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Brusna

deezell wrote: »

Is it possible on the Drayton app to group devices, so they all share the same schedule? On Tado you can add TRVs to a zone, they'll use their own temperature measurment, but take their settungs from the common schedule. Otherwise it's nightmare. Imagine a 7 day schedule with maybe 10 TRVs and stats, that's 70 daily schedules to edit. I've only Sat, Sun, Mon-Fri, on two zones. Thats still 6 schedules, plus the Away schedules when out.
Perhaps the Drayton Away feature will provide the functionality you need. I note they're flagging improvements in this area with the introduction of IFTTT integration.
https://wiser.draytoncontrols.co.uk/blog/ifttt-meet-wiser

I can’t see a way to group device’s to use the same schedule on the Drayton Wiser app but I only have two devices on two different circuits. Maybe captainshamroc who posted above can let us know if this is possible.

Yeah it looks like the ifttt away mode will be my best bet. I’ll have a go at setting it up and report back.

captainshamroc

Brusna wrote: »

I can’t see a way to group device’s to use the same schedule on the Drayton Wiser app but I only have two devices on two different circuits. Maybe captainshamroc who posted above can let us know if this is possible.

Yeah it looks like the ifttt away mode will be my best bet. I’ll have a go at setting it up and report back.

I don't use scheduling much with the exception of 1 or 2 rooms in the morning over the winter so its not much of a big deal for me. I don't think this is available but with the fact that they do add new features I would expect it at some stage.You could fire off a question to tech support. They are fairly responsive.

This review brings up the same point.
https://www.automatedhome.co.uk/reviews/drayton-wiser-smart-heating-controls-review-part-4-1-year-older-much-wiser.html

Brusna

captainshamroc wrote: »

I don't use scheduling much with the exception of 1 or 2 rooms in the morning over the winter so its not much of a big deal for me. I don't think this is available but with the fact that they do add new features I would expect it at some stage.You could fire off a question to tech support. They are fairly responsive.

This review brings up the same point.
https://www.automatedhome.co.uk/reviews/drayton-wiser-smart-heating-controls-review-part-4-1-year-older-much-wiser.html

Thanks for the link. Reading the comments in that article it’s clear that this is an issue for a lot of users so hopefully it will be addressed in a future update.

I tried out ifttt to setup an away schedule using time and date and it works ok. It’s not ideal though and a messy way to do it but it’ll do for now.

bobbyg

bobbyg wrote: »

I am in the process of doing a house extension and attic conversion, we are switching to a combi boiler and changing all the current rads to new ones. I am wondering what would be our best option for smart controls. We have google home throughout the house so would the nest thermostat be the best option. Does this allow us zone the heating, sorry I am completely clueless with this sort of stuff.

Sorry to bump this but can anyone offer any advice? I am completely clueless with this and it is hard to find the answers in this thread as it is so large.

championc

bobbyg wrote: »

Sorry to bump this but can anyone offer any advice? I am completely clueless with this and it is hard to find the answers in this thread as it is so large.

I too have a combi, and have had for over 20 years. I also have installed a full Tado system of Smart TRV's on all Rads, making them all basically individual zones. I had an upstairs, downstairs zone value, but that's permanently open.

Most people look to separating upstairs from downstairs, but if you have a north / south orientation, the south facing side will invariably be warmer, so separation front and back might actually make more sense. So this is why, in my opinion, the Tado makes for a perfect solution. Of course, upstairs will benefit from any heating below. Smart TRV's keep temperature far more constant than mechanical TRV's

garo

+1 to what championc said. In order to zone the heating you need to have a valve installed that will control the flow of water from the boiler to either zone. If you want two zones you can go with an S-plan or Y-plan system. Note that installing a valve will require labour plus parts and depending on how difficult the job is could cost a few hundred. You will then need something to control the two zones for which you have a number of alternatives including the Nest.

The alternative is - which I recommend - to install smart TRVs on every radiator - since you are getting new rads this would be a perfect time to do so. This will allow you to control the temperature in every room.

The three best products for smart TRVs control+scheduling are:
1) Honeywell Evohome
2) Tado
3) Drayton Wiser
in roughly decreasing order of cost. The controller alone would cost from 150-300 euros. Smart TRVs would be 50-80 per TRV. You can get them cheaper on discount offers and bundle deals. You do not need a hot water control as you are switching to a combi boiler. That will save you money.

bobbyg

Cheers that's really helpful.

spicymchaggis

garo wrote: »

+1 to what championc said. In order to zone the heating you need to have a valve installed that will control the flow of water from the boiler to either zone. If you want two zones you can go with an S-plan or Y-plan system. Note that installing a valve will require labour plus parts and depending on how difficult the job is could cost a few hundred. You will then need something to control the two zones for which you have a number of alternatives including the Nest.

The alternative is - which I recommend - to install smart TRVs on every radiator - since you are getting new rads this would be a perfect time to do so. This will allow you to control the temperature in every room.

The three best products for smart TRVs control+scheduling are:
1) Honeywell Evohome
2) Tado
3) Drayton Wiser
in roughly decreasing order of cost. The controller alone would cost from 150-300 euros. Smart TRVs would be 50-80 per TRV. You can get them cheaper on discount offers and bundle deals. You do not need a hot water control as you are switching to a combi boiler. That will save you money.

This is my thoughts an approach exactly. This would allow you for the controls upgrade grant which is €750, the evohome controller is £250 on amazon and a 4 pack of trvs is £200 so the grant should offset a lot of this. There is labor involved. A combi boiler and smart controls fitted should also be entitled to carbon credits.

garo

A new boiler is eligible for a 100 euro grant. Definitely ask the person installing the new boiler and rads if they are SEAI approved and would claim the grant for you. Since you are getting new rads make sure you put in TRV compatible bodies. You don't want to have to change the bodies after the rads have been installed with dumb valves.

https://theevohomeshop.co.uk/radiator-valves/47-honeywell-valencia-v120-15a-manual-radiator-valve-15mm-angled.html
or this:
https://www.screwfix.ie/p/honeywell-home-valencia-vt117-15a-white-angled-trv-15mm-x-g-/184FV

Note the second has a TRV head as well while the first is valve body only.
Whatever you buy, make sure it is compatible with the smart TRV head you go for.

deezell

bobbyg wrote: »

Sorry to bump this but can anyone offer any advice? I am completely clueless with this and it is hard to find the answers in this thread as it is so large.

Did I not answer this about 6 posts ago, #2130?

bobbyg

deezell wrote: »

Did I not answer this about 6 posts ago, #2130?

Sorry don't know how I missed that, cheers.

garo

deezell wrote: »

Did I not answer this about 6 posts ago, #2130?

Never should have doubted the master!

deezell

garo wrote: »

Never should have doubted the master!

Yes, the Craftsman tops the Apprentice, but the Master Bates them all !

bobbyg

deezell wrote: »

Did I not answer this about 6 posts ago, #2130?

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I think I will go with the Tado system. Is this what i need to buy? I haven't spoken to the plumber yet as he wont be back on site till next week. https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Smart-Thermostat-Starter-Kit/dp/B07YCY3T1S?th=1 and this https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Radiator-Thermostat-Vertical-mounting/dp/B07FYS7GC4/ref=pd_lpo_60_img_2/260-7255590-8181663?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07FYS7GC4&pd_rd_r=3172398d-60ae-49e8-8d69-c8396973bf00&pd_rd_w=kYsTi&pd_rd_wg=6zmSD&pf_rd_p=7b8e3b03-1439-4489-abd4-4a138cf4eca6&pf_rd_r=B1A9G0R0N2FJJNENN29J&psc=1&refRID=B1A9G0R0N2FJJNENN29J If I undersrand correctly this will cover me for 6 rooms or is that overkill?

lucast2007us

What would the cost be roughly for a plumber to replace say a old style "Manuel control valve"(the ones with + and - symbol on it) to a "TRV " valve on 10 radiator's?

championc

bobbyg wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I think I will go with the Tado system. Is this what i need to buy? I haven't spoken to the plumber yet as he wont be back on site till next week. https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Smart-Thermostat-Starter-Kit/dp/B07YCY3T1S?th=1 and this https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Radiator-Thermostat-Vertical-mounting/dp/B07FYS7GC4/ref=pd_lpo_60_img_2/260-7255590-8181663?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07FYS7GC4&pd_rd_r=3172398d-60ae-49e8-8d69-c8396973bf00&pd_rd_w=kYsTi&pd_rd_wg=6zmSD&pf_rd_p=7b8e3b03-1439-4489-abd4-4a138cf4eca6&pf_rd_r=B1A9G0R0N2FJJNENN29J&psc=1&refRID=B1A9G0R0N2FJJNENN29J If I undersrand correctly this will cover me for 6 rooms or is that overkill?

You MAY need the Extension Kit. It is the wired control box to the boiler if the Room Stat isn't wired.

The price for the two TRV's Starter Kit looks good but I managed to get 2 x Quattro packs @ £179 each. I found these
https://electrical-showroom.co.uk/tado-smart-radiator-thermostat-quattro-kit-vertical

garo

lucast2007us wrote: »

What would the cost be roughly for a plumber to replace say a old style "Manuel control valve"(the ones with + and - symbol on it) to a "TRV " valve on 10 radiator's?

It is over half a day's worth of work I think. I'd be looking at 200-300? I could be off by a fair bit though.

deezell

garo wrote: »

It is over half a day's worth of work I think. I'd be looking at 200-300? I could be off by a fair bit though.

The big issue is if your old valves are Union type, with a big nut on the valve to the 'tail' pipe screwed into the radiator.
10mm_radiator_valve_2-jpg.128778

If the TRV valve has the same union connection to the rad tail, and the same 1/2" compression nut to the rising pipe, with the nut of the same thread gauge, then you'd just need to drain the system and swap the valve body for the similarly connected TRV body.

Unfortunately, it's unlikely to be that easy. Virtually all TRV valve bodies use a compression fitting, not a flush union, at the rad end. This require removing the old valve tail from the rad, often seized and stuck. At the rising pipe end, the existing valve nut is unlikely to be a match in thread gauge or depth to the compression fitting on the TRV valve body, so the old compression nut and it's compressed ring have to be removed from the rising pipe, time consuming. I've only ever seen one TRV valve body, a Drayton one, with a union fitting to the rad, and this is sold complete with manual TRV head, for a whopping £44/€50, and It has only 3/4 thread on the pipe end, requiring a compression fitting adapter.

Replacement compression TRV valve bodies can be bought for as little as £4/€5.

https://www.stevensonplumbing.co.uk/myson-trv2way-valve-body.html
These take a bit of work as described above, I experienced difficult to remove union rad spigot, and mismatch of thread on the riser compression nuts, requiring replacement of the nut and ring. Plumber could easily spend a day on ten rads, but as least the bodies are cheap.

graememk

Bit of backgound:

in 2013, replaced the open fire with an inset stove, Charnwood SLX45, Has 4 boiler tappings.

When installed one pair is connected to a coil in the hotwater tank via gravity, and a circulation pump for the Rads.

Second pair is connected only to a coil in the tank (Originally connected to oil, but oil is only used to give a boost in the morning or wif we are away. So oil is only connected to the rads)

I also have a pump connected to this circuit.Prob not needed but is useful to quickly heat the water in the summer, (There is also solar tubes on the roof)

I setup temperature sensors ( for flow and return of the 2 circuits) and relays (to control the pumps) to a raspberry pi, with a mysql db for logging and a python script to read the sensors and run the pumps, Worked well for a couple of years, then the sd card died and I didnt have a backup. So that is lost to the sands of time now.

I never removed the old manual pipe thermostats as a fail safe for the system. So have been running on that for the last few years. Not a big deal but feel that it can be better.

So I have resurrected the Pi, and going to leave the pi to just reporting information and and acting on orders.

I am using MQTT to transmit the sensor readings to another Raspberry Pi running emoncms (I also have an emonEVSE and will be linking up a monitor for electricity soon.) I intend on doing the control from Node red.

All but the radiators in the bathroom and ensuite are TRV's. and all are currrently set at about 2/3 and running. I have been going around them all the last few days checking for stuck valve.

Had the fire running well for a while last night to get some good information to try and figure out a good control algorithm.

So: What I am asking is how long should a pump run for, instead of hitting 60/70c on the output, kicking in, some rads get a rush of hot water, cooler water coming in and knocking the pump off.

ie threshold is reached, run for 5 -10 mins to try and equalise and then reevaluate.

In winter, the fire rarely goes out but its air supply is cut down during the day until the evening, ashes are taken out, opened up etc. So a time element can be incorporated into it too, more likely to run for longer in the evening.

Attached is a screenshot of last nights burn, I set the pumps to constant for about an hour at 8ish, and the dip was when I realised a radiator was stuck closed. taking the TRV off and back on sorted it.

Fire was then turned down and left to idle the rest of the night.

deezell

Without getting into the technicalities of your bespoke software system which is used to monitor and operate the pumps, I would draw your attention to the issue of thermal shock with solid fuel only systems, and methods of eliminating this stove efficiency challenging phenomenon. Thermal shock occurs in a stove because the rad pump doesn't circulate until the boiler head exceeds 65°. Below this the heated water is circulating by convection through the HW tank coil, and cooled return temperatures are generally in the high forties or at equilibrium if the HW tank is fully heated. The temperature in the boiler jacket has a low gradient top to bottom, and stays steady as the mean temperature rises and triggers the pump stat. The sudden rush of cold radiator water at sub 20° creates a steep gradient in the jacket, causing mechanical creaks, sometimes steam hammer noises, and sudden cooling of the lower stove chamber fuel burn, which can affect stove efficiency and response to damper adjustments, especially if the stove has a thermocouple controlled damper.

There are simple plumbing solutions to this, and especially if you have a dual system with a cross connected oil boiler. Ideally you let the stove heated water circulate by convection to a blending tank or neutraliser. At 60° the pump will come on and force this flow, and at 65° a seperate pump from the blender will take the heated water from the blender to the rads. The cold rad return never goes directly to the bottom of the stove, but is mixed with the circulating stove (or oil) heated water and a return to the stove is tapped off midway in the blender space. There are a good few plumbing scenarios in blended stove/oil setups, but they are generally very simple to operate and give very smooth transfer from the stove. Suitable relay boxes for the pumps can be configured to allow the stove interrupt an oil boiler operating off a normal or smart room thermostat, such that the contribution of the stove to system is undetectable in terms of room temperature variations, and will only be noticed if a very strong fire is allowed to burn in excess of the system demand, say on a mild evening when room temperatures are near or at setpoints with little demand on the oil boiler.

Have a look at this,
https://www.oxyvent.com/how-it-works/solid-fuel/

Also have a look at the layouts and examples on the NRGAwareness site.
https://www.nrgzone.ie/schematics-2/

graememk

Haven't had time to fully read but that's exactly what I needed, a push in the right direction

(Also software is still in my head other than the monitoring!)

Anything I do should be better than the traditional pipe stat.

edit: got some time to read it a few times.

Will investigate the current pipe layout but currently (on the rads circuit) I think it comes from the stove into a T with a coil connected to one side and then the rad pump to the other. (the oil system is then T'd onto that line then, with a motorised valve on pipe coming from the oil.

Hot water tank is right beside the fire maybe no more than 2 ft away max.

Don't really want to change anything physically, but will be able to pull heat from the hot water tank in-directly to keep the temp of the water in the stove hotter.

Dont think i will be able to eliminate thermal shock, but will be able to reduce it. I will attempt to get the control done soon, and poke a bit more at it.

Thanks!

john_doe.

Attached is a wiring diagram for a system containing a stove and a drayton 3 channel. there used to be a Lex box there for tying the wiring together but it had become damaged so instead of replacing it directly , got a small PLC for similar cost and was implementing the logic in that , which the lex box done

Logic is below:

If stove stat is on - turn on pump stove
If drayton chanel 1 is on calling for heat-turn on boiler pump
If drayton chanel 3 is on calling for heat-turn on boiler pump

turn on boiler if stove stat is off AND
if drayon channel 1 OR channel 3 OR (drayton hot water and cylinder stat) is calling for heat

Turn on hot water pump if drayton h/W is calling and cyclinder stat is on

turn on pump zone 1 if drayton ch1 is on or stove stat is on
turn on pump zone 2 if drayton ch3 is on or stove stat is on

hope logic makes sense and works , will get an electrician to wire it and check

punisher5112

Hi, anyone any recommendations for immersion so can control times etc...

lucast2007us

Does the Netatmo control hot water and heating or just the heating?

punisher5112

lucast2007us wrote: »

Does the Netatmo control hot water and heating or just the heating?

Just the one.

iba

Hi,

I'm considering buying the Tuya ZigBee Radiator Valves but I'm not sure if they will fit on my radiators.

From what I read there seems to be three types of radiator valves that the Tuya ones can fit to, namely, RA, RAV and RAVL. I could be wrong about this, so please feel free to correct me.

So will they fit on my radiators. I don't know what type of valve I have on my radiators so I attach a pic.

Thanks

iba

deezell

iba wrote: »

Hi,

I'm considering buying the Tuya ZigBee Radiator Valves but I'm not sure if they will fit on my radiators.

From what I read there seems to be three types of radiator valves that the Tuya ones can fit to, namely, RA, RAV and RAVL. I could be wrong about this, so please feel free to correct me.

So will they fit on my radiators. I don't know what type of valve I have on my radiators so I attach a pic.

Thanks

No, your rad valves are rotary type, like a tap, not suitable for any brand of TRV. TRV valves are a push down pin valve. You'll need to change the valve bodies on your radiators on one end of each rad. See my previous post #2149

iba

deezell wrote: »

No, your rad valves are rotary type, like a tap, not suitable for any brand of TRV. TRV valves are a push down pin valve. You'll need to change the valve bodies on your radiators on one end of each rad. See my previous post #2149

Thanks very much Deezel you have been very helpful.

Can I ask is this what I'd have to change them to:

https://www.stevensonplumbing.co.uk/...alve-body.html

and why only on one end - is it the end where you control the heat from i.e. turn on and off?

Thanks

deezell

iba wrote: »

Thanks very much Deezel you have been very helpful.

Can I ask is this what I'd have to change them to:

https://www.stevensonplumbing.co.uk/...alve-body.html

and why only on one end - is it the end where you control the heat from i.e. turn on and off?

Thanks

Just one end, youll only fit one TRV on each rad, the lockshield valve at t'other end is left on and open.

That valve body in the link is 1/2" compression both sides, which your rotary valves appear to be, so if the compression nuts' threads are a match, then it could be an easy swap, re-using the existing nuts already retained on the pipe riser and the rad spigot. Experience tells me even then the thread depth and pipe insert distance can differ, meaning the new body may not seal even if the nut thread gauge is the same, neccitating the removal of the old compression rings from the rad and riser in order to use the new body's nuts. Tedious and tricky for a DIYer.

As regards the body type, that one is a standard M30 thread by 1.5mm depth. Most manual or smart TRVs will fit straight on retrained by the TRV screw ring. However, the Chinese TRVs you are contemplating seem to be manufactured with Danfoss RA clamp on fittings. You would require Danfoss RA valve bodies for a direct fit, such as these.

While it is possibly to adapt these valve bodies to take M30 x 1.5 TRV heads, I'm not certain if you can get the reverse adaptor, RA TRV heads to the common M30 threaded valve body, so if you buy these heads you will need these valve bodies.
Apart from the cost and difficulty of obtaining and fitting these RA bodies, (they dont have a pipe compression fitting, just a f/m 1/2" pipe thread, requiring a brass adaptor, and your rad spigots will need removing), your'e making your TRV bodies off standard for most other TRV heads, requiring plastic head adaptors if you were to later fit Tado or Wiser or other M30 x 1.5 heads. That would look really ugly, with an M30 TRV to an RA adaptor to a RA valve body to a 1/2" gb-to-compression adaptor to your rising pipe.
There must be plenty of low cost TRVs with the M30 fitting, I'd avoid the ones you're considering which are likely manufactured as an electronic upgrade for existing RA bodied Danfoss installations.
Here's a link to Tuya M30 equipped Zigbee TRVs, this is what you want, they'll fit straight to those inexpensive M30 replacement valve bodies.
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4001039187695.html