How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Truthvader wrote: »

"and that those dissident and belligerent unionists/loyalists are a thing of the past"

Yep that's the real problem right there. GFA or no GFA wanting to be British is never acceptable

Wanting to kill to be British is the problem which is what belligerent Uionism and Loyalist has threatened and does threaten to do. The last time they threatened (Carson etc) they were acceded to and look what happened?

Oh wait, I forgot, Truthvader believes that had no consequences or something something...

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can't do anything for this level of simple lying about realities. This is entering Gemma Doherty territory now. You claim the conflict/war is an 'excuse' now?

Does that mean it never happened as Gemma would have us believe?

A reminder of what the GFA was Truth -

The Good Friday Agreement (GFA), or Belfast Agreement (Irish: Comhaontú Aoine an Chéasta or Comhaontú Bhéal Feirste; Ulster-Scots: Guid Friday Greeance or Bilfawst Greeance),[1] is a pair of agreements signed on 10 April 1998 that ended most of the violence of the Troubles, a political conflict in Northern Ireland that had been ongoing since the 1960s.

Again...killing by anyone is always wrong...even if you have 'no choice'. That includes the killing that takes place in conventional wars.

It is wrong to continue as it was wrong to begin.

To continue LYING outright about my position you need to find a post where I have said the IRA were correct Truth...like everyone else in the conflict/war, what they did was wrong.
I am more interested in looking at why it happened so we can make sure it never happens again and that those dissident and belligerent unionists/loyalists are a thing of the past.

"and that those dissident and belligerent unionists/loyalists are a thing of the past"

Yep that's the real problem right there. GFA or no GFA wanting to be British is never acceptable

Pogue eile wrote: »

Brady will also be released in about 24 years time, will you consider him to be redeemed on release or are you just making this sh*t up as you go???

Probably not but he will be a bit more redeemed than the likes of Dessie Ellis and Gerry Adams enjoying a happy retirement after a life of murder

Pogue eile

Truthvader wrote: »

They should be "redeeming themselves" in prison along with the likes of Aaron Brady

Brady will also be released in about 24 years time, will you consider him to be redeemed on release or are you just making this sh*t up as you go???

Truthvader wrote: »

Ah Francie's old "conflict/war" excuse wheeled out again plus the carefully constructed doublespeak

"If you continue killing and resorting to or exhorting violence then you remain wrong."

TRANSLATION. The killing and resorting to violence is only really wrong if you continue. Before that is "wrong" but a different kind of "we had no choice"/" it was partitions fault" wrong. A kind of forgivable understandable misdemeanor

And who decides when it should stop? Why are the dissidents and bombers of Omagh not entitled to continue? We still don't have United Ireland so why is it wrong for them to continue ? Terrible thing about Lyra McKee but ...partition the PSNI provoked etc etc. Is it just when Gerry Adams is satisfied?

Not good enough. Anyone who would murder or mutilate another human being going about their business is a scumbag and a Bobby Storey scumbag is as reprehensible as Shankill Butcher scumbag - though I wonder will we see the same glorious pageant of a "funeral" when the next Loyalist thug checks out.

I can't do anything for this level of simple lying about realities. This is entering Gemma Doherty territory now. You claim the conflict/war is an 'excuse' now?

Does that mean it never happened as Gemma would have us believe?

A reminder of what the GFA was Truth -

The Good Friday Agreement (GFA), or Belfast Agreement (Irish: Comhaontú Aoine an Chéasta or Comhaontú Bhéal Feirste; Ulster-Scots: Guid Friday Greeance or Bilfawst Greeance),[1] is a pair of agreements signed on 10 April 1998 that ended most of the violence of the Troubles, a political conflict in Northern Ireland that had been ongoing since the 1960s.

Again...killing by anyone is always wrong...even if you have 'no choice'. That includes the killing that takes place in conventional wars.

It is wrong to continue as it was wrong to begin.

To continue LYING outright about my position you need to find a post where I have said the IRA were correct Truth...like everyone else in the conflict/war, what they did was wrong.
I am more interested in looking at why it happened so we can make sure it never happens again and that those dissident and belligerent unionists/loyalists are a thing of the past.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I view everyone who killed/resorted to violence as wrong...everybody. How many times do I need to say this?

Are they 'wrong' forever and a day...no, just like anyone who is involved in conflict/war, like many who ran this state up until their deahs by natural causes, you have a chance to redeem yourself. If you continue killing and resorting to or exhorting violence then you remain wrong.

They should be "redeeming themselves" in prison along with the likes of Aaron Brady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I view everyone who killed/resorted to violence as wrong...everybody. How many times do I need to say this?

Are they 'wrong' forever and a day...no, just like anyone who is involved in conflict/war, like many who ran this state up until their deahs by natural causes, you have a chance to redeem yourself. If you continue killing and resorting to or exhorting violence then you remain wrong.

Ah Francie's old "conflict/war" excuse wheeled out again plus the carefully constructed doublespeak

"If you continue killing and resorting to or exhorting violence then you remain wrong."

TRANSLATION. The killing and resorting to violence is only really wrong if you continue. Before that is "wrong" but a different kind of "we had no choice"/" it was partitions fault" wrong. A kind of forgivable understandable misdemeanor

And who decides when it should stop? Why are the dissidents and bombers of Omagh not entitled to continue? We still don't have United Ireland so why is it wrong for them to continue ? Terrible thing about Lyra McKee but ...partition the PSNI provoked etc etc. Is it just when Gerry Adams is satisfied?

Not good enough. Anyone who would murder or mutilate another human being going about their business is a scumbag and a Bobby Storey scumbag is as reprehensible as Shankill Butcher scumbag - though I wonder will we see the same glorious pageant of a "funeral" when the next Loyalist thug checks out.

jh79 wrote: »

Can i assume from this post you view the likes of Jock and Storey as equivalent to Wright and Adair?

I view everyone who killed/resorted to violence as wrong...everybody. How many times do I need to say this?

Are they 'wrong' forever and a day...no, just like anyone who is involved in conflict/war, like many who ran this state up until their deahs by natural causes, you have a chance to redeem yourself. If you continue killing and resorting to or exhorting violence then you remain wrong.

Pogue eile

Truthvader getting an awful kicking here

:D The only reply he seems to have is to put random phrases in inverted commas!!

Truthvader wrote: »

As usual you attempt to lie your way out.

Anytime I post on this topic I always to make sure to include reference to Loyalist/ Brit criminality (notwithstanding the fact that no-one here is promoting or justifying the Gleannane gang or any of the thuggery on the Loyalist side). As before anyone can review your posting history and view the excuses and equivocation throughout. It was all "partitions" fault, some people "had no choice" Warrington "got results" and on and on with relentless ducking and doublespeak

And running through it all the toxic fault-line of a useless Nationalist fantasy that everything will be great forever when "we" achieve a United Ireland

Partition is the cause of the divisions on this island Truth. Fact. Everything leads back to it.

Your silence on collusion, the ignoring of the operation of a sectarian bigoted state, your silence on the continued attempts to hold on to aspects of that state 'supports' those things.
Your insistence on blaming one side puts you on the other side sadly.

I blame all sides for what happened and I hold those with the most responsibility to the highest account for what happened. All of it was wrong and depraved not just the work of the guys and gals under your now legendary bed.

Nor will you find anywhere in my posting (And that is also a challenge for you to demonstrate) where I have ever said that things will be 'great forever' in a UI. In fact I remember posting that things will be a challenge and we will still have the day to day problems of running a country.

You are lying again, in your assassination attempt. It seems to be all you can do.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So it is just your select crowd who should be commemorated/remembered?

On shivers to think what kind of a state you would construct Truth...how long would it last before it too went up in flames.

Anyone can review my posting history, if they find one post condoning violence then please post it.
Your post above is condoning the violence of one side while selectively condemning others.

That is good old fashioned cold hypocrisy of the highest order.

Can i assume from this post you view the likes of Jock and Storey as equivalent to Wright and Adair?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So it is just your select crowd who should be commemorated/remembered?

On shivers to think what kind of a state you would construct Truth...how long would it last before it too went up in flames.

Anyone can review my posting history, if they find one post condoning violence then please post it.
Your post above is condoning the violence of one side while selectively condemning others.

That is good old fashioned cold hypocrisy of the highest order.

As usual you attempt to lie your way out.

Anytime I post on this topic I always to make sure to include reference to Loyalist/ Brit criminality (notwithstanding the fact that no-one here is promoting or justifying the Gleannane gang or any of the thuggery on the Loyalist side). As before anyone can review your posting history and view the excuses and equivocation throughout. It was all "partitions" fault, some people "had no choice" Warrington "got results" and on and on with relentless ducking and doublespeak

And running through it all the toxic fault-line of a useless Nationalist fantasy that everything will be great forever when "we" achieve a United Ireland

Truthvader wrote: »

B*LLOCKS. You have been a full time apologist and cheerleader for Sinn Fein IRA. Fully trained up in the coded language of Gerryadamspeak with the usual all inclusive cop out phrases such as "It was all wrong" and "we have all suffered". Even going so far as to pretend sociopathic thugs and killers "had no choice"

There is no "all". Depraved and warped individuals who can put a bomb in a pub full of people they have never met or shoot a man in front of his family - or shoot protesters on Bloody Sunday are individually culpable and responsible for the choices they make.

As per other threads I invite all to go through your posting history and judge for themselves

Not getting away with it.

So it is just your select crowd who should be commemorated/remembered?

On shivers to think what kind of a state you would construct Truth...how long would it last before it too went up in flames.

Anyone can review my posting history, if they find one post condoning violence then please post it.
Your post above is condoning the violence of one side while selectively condemning others.

That is good old fashioned cold hypocrisy of the highest order.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The RIC have a public commemoration every year. Are you unaware of that?
Nobody has ever objected to them having that nor the MoJ or others attending it.

I have said before here that ALL should be allowed to commemorate their dead with respect.

BTW, you are WRONG AGAIN I never supported violence of any kind. I think it was ALL wrong from the get go and those who created the circumstances for it.

B*LLOCKS. You have been a full time apologist and cheerleader for Sinn Fein IRA. Fully trained up in the coded language of Gerryadamspeak with the usual all inclusive cop out phrases such as "It was all wrong" and "we have all suffered". Even going so far as to pretend sociopathic thugs and killers "had no choice"

There is no "all". Depraved and warped individuals who can put a bomb in a pub full of people they have never met or shoot a man in front of his family - or shoot protesters on Bloody Sunday are individually culpable and responsible for the choices they make.

As per other threads I invite all to go through your posting history and judge for themselves

Not getting away with it.

Brendan Bendar

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Hold on.....are you asking Francie for proof that he didn't post something? What do you want him to do, quote his entire posting history!?

I've no idea whether Francie did or did not object to the MoJ going to commemorations, but asking someone to prove they didn't say something? That is so devoid of logic that it is almost incomprehensible.

This is the sort of standard you'd be kicked off a secondary school debate club for, Mark. If you're making an assertion that Francie has said something, you're responsible for providing evidence that he has done so.

40k posts, uhmm... wouldn’t fancy goin through that lot.

Lad could sink into a swamp of turgity.

eire4

Well it is increasingly looking more and more like come January 1 next there will be no trade deal in place between the UK and the EU. This will certainly be dreadful for everyone in Ireland on top pf the economic hits caused by the pandemic. But it will be interesting to see what happens after the dust settles and how this affects things in terms of Irish reunification.

At last our partitionists, who have the exact same message as Alex, have a political party to support them.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/inevitable-nationalists-lose-border-poll-both-sides-border-says-dup-mla-2980251

Randy Archer

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

How very civil war of you 'pick a side, or else'.

The forces of the state did a fair bit of murdering themselves. My opinion on killing is clear, it is a bad thing that shouldn't happen.

Oh absolutely not as was made clear by the many RIC men who quit or became informers for the IRA. The ones who stuck it out must have hated their fellow countrymen, why else would they stay there?

Ha , whataboutry

There wasn’t a lot of sympathy from the public Towards the IRA over Ballyseedy . After all, it was the IRA Anti Treaty people, who refused to accept the vote of the people (Collins pulled a fast one on that by only realising the IFS Constitution on the same day) The first to kill their enemy - Four Courts might be classed as the beginning of the war, but a IFS Officer was shot and killed in Athlone during a stand off a few weeks earlier .

Free State we’re responding to similar tactic from IRA weeks earlier who had planted bombs . Saying all that, it’s a surprise that Paddy Daly ,one of Collins Squad Members, never got a bullet years later .

Refuse the recognise the State and it’s forces and go and attack them and even it’s elected members of Dáil Éireann....you are going to need a massive violin with that excuse

So, you use Ballyseedy to deflect the actions of the IRA in peace time. Typical Shinner .

BonnieSituation

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Hold on.....are you asking Francie for proof that he didn't post something? What do you want him to do, quote his entire posting history!?

I've no idea whether Francie did or did not object to the MoJ going to commemorations, but asking someone to prove they didn't say something? That is so devoid of logic that it is almost incomprehensible.

This is the sort of standard you'd be kicked off a secondary school debate club for, Mark. If you're making an assertion that Francie has said something, you're responsible for providing evidence that he has done so.

It's not the first time Mark has resorted to such nonsense and yet when he's asked to clarify something he already said we get the fabled "I already answered that".

It's almost like he has different standards for others than he has for himself.

Fionn1952

markodaly wrote: »

Show us where you did not object to the Minister of Justice going to these commemorations.
After all, you ALWAYS back up your posts, now don't you.

Hold on.....are you asking Francie for proof that he didn't post something? What do you want him to do, quote his entire posting history!?

I've no idea whether Francie did or did not object to the MoJ going to commemorations, but asking someone to prove they didn't say something? That is so devoid of logic that it is almost incomprehensible.

This is the sort of standard you'd be kicked off a secondary school debate club for, Mark. If you're making an assertion that Francie has said something, you're responsible for providing evidence that he has done so.

markodaly wrote: »

Then its obvious.
You don't if ever back up what you say.

I didn't claim that I didn't object Mark...I said 'nobody ever objected to the RIC annual commemoration'.

You mean NI is not ruled by Westminister anymore?
:D

Yes it is.
They stated that they no longer had a selfish or strategic interest in Northern Ireland though and stated that it was for the people of the island of Ireland to decide their future.
When that was negotiated with a still fully armed group, the IRA agreed that they would accept the majority decision if a border poll was held at regular intervals.
In return for the demilitarisation of northern Ireland and the renaming and restructuring of the disgraced sectarian and partisan police force the IRA agreed to disarm and did.

I can provide backup for any of the statements above.
If you have time could you link to a statement of 'surrender' by any opf the players above by way of back-up? Cheers.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Show you were I didn't do something?

Then its obvious.
You don't if ever back up what you say.

Misrepresented facts for the purpose of taunting.

You mean NI is not ruled by Westminister anymore?

markodaly wrote: »

Show us where you did not object to the Minister of Justice going to these commemorations.
After all, you ALWAYS back up your posts, now don't you.

Show you were I didn't do something?

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Facts are taunts now?
Oh Dear!

Misrepresented facts for the purpose of taunting.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

where did I claim to have supported him?
I didn't object to the annual RIC commemoration, is what I said.. backed up by the abscence of objection.

Show us where you did not object to the Minister of Justice going to these commemorations.
After all, you ALWAYS back up your posts, now don't you.

And that is a good example of the aforementioned partitionist taunting. Same kind of thing your allies - belligerent unionists engage in.

Facts are taunts now?
Oh Dear!

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I dont think anybody, unionist nationaliat catholic protestant or partionist should be allowed to intentionally offend Mark...you do obviously.

Show me a law where it says that?
There is no right to not be offended.
However, your words are kinda chilling.

Wrong again. Not agreeing to kick an inevitable down the road and actually making division harder to cure may have led to war or it might not have.

Oh good, another Walter Mitty view of history.
Tell me, how do you think Ireland could have avoided the resumption of war in 1921 if it didn't agree to the Anglo-Irish Treaty? Genuinely tell us!

On the same token you think partion was easily avoided, now you are telling us we could have had a UI with no war with the Brits or Unionists.
Hilarious stuff. Even your allies on this thread are not even siding with you on this one.

Again, you said, 'Whatever it took'. That obviously means violence and war, so to say you are anti war when you specially advocated war in 1921 rings hollow now.

I am against the use of violence that doesn't make me a hat doffer or a subservient yes man just because it is the easy way out.

So, you disagree with the Provo campaign of violence now?
A man of peace but blowing up a 3 year old toddler is fair game!
I don't think you are fooling anyone with those words.

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

A copout but to be expected.

How very civil war of you 'pick a side, or else'.

Traitors who target and kill Gardai and Irish Defence Force personnel?
"Meh, don't really have an opinion on it"

The forces of the state did a fair bit of murdering themselves. My opinion on killing is clear, it is a bad thing that shouldn't happen.

But RIC Men?
"All post 1918 RIC men though hate their country-men"

Oh absolutely not as was made clear by the many RIC men who quit or became informers for the IRA. The ones who stuck it out must have hated their fellow countrymen, why else would they stay there?

markodaly wrote: »

Oh, so you don't back up a claim.
Another fast u-turn.

Can you back up your last claim where you supported the MOJ going to a RIC commemoration?

where did I claim to have supported him?
I didn't object to the annual RIC commemoration, is what I said.. backed up by the abscence of objection.

I do object to them being given a state commemoration though as I would to the IRA or UVF getting one.

Facts of history, like Partition happened and that SF/PIRA gave up most of their arms, surrendered and agreed to Westminister and British rule in NI for the foreseeable future? That little factoid?

Parition was inevitable.

And that is a good example of the aforementioned partitionist taunting. Same kind of thing your allies - belligerent unionists engage in.

markodaly wrote: »

You are deliberately mischaracterizing what happened.
As soon as the state was involved in the RIC commemeration, people like you lost their minds.
Hell, you don't want people to wear a Poppy and that they should be force to remove them if asked, comparing it to a Swastika.

I dont think anybody, unionist nationaliat catholic protestant or partionist should be allowed to intentionally offend Mark...you do obviously.

Odd, as the other day you said the IRA of 1921 should have done 'whatever it took' to secure a UI and NOT signed the Anglo-Irish treaty.....
Is this now a pacifist position? ROFL.

"Im non-violent but we should wage war on the British/Unionists for the 6 counties"
Does.Not.Computre Francie

Wrong again. Not agreeing to kick an inevitable down the road and actually making division harder to cure may have led to war or it might not have.
I am against the use of violence that doesn't make me a hat doffer or a subservient yes man just because it is the easy way out.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here's how it works Mark...if I don't back up a claim then you need to challenge me on it.

Oh, so you don't back up a claim.
Another fast u-turn.

Can you back up your last claim where you supported the MOJ going to a RIC commemoration?

I don't ignore significant facts of history (like an overt threat of war from another country or a suprematist political and religious ideology changing the voting system etc etc) to arrive at a biased narrative.

Facts of history, like Partition happened and that SF/PIRA gave up most of their arms, surrendered and agreed to Westminister and British rule in NI for the foreseeable future? That little factoid?

Parition was inevitable.