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Asti strike action

Bobtheman

So according to reports we are to be balloted. Have tunned out of Asti events last few years because of the members cowardice. And a lack of leadership from headquarters/SC. I was surprised to hear about a ballot. To me it came out of the blue.
I do believe the issues are important.
I will vote yes to strike action.
I see a ballot being carried 60-40.

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[Deleted User]

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Why should teachers put themselves in danger in unsafe working conditions that breach every recommended NPHET guideline?

If it was a case of my health, or some parents having to look after their own children, then I know what I'd do.

Every worker who has gone back to work has done so with some risk to their health, but they get on with it.

If parents have to stay at home without pay, there will be no sympathy for you. You think parents of fifth and sixth years will support a strike that means their kids miss more school?

beauf

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Why should teachers put themselves in danger in unsafe working conditions that breach every recommended NPHET guideline?

If it was a case of my health, or some parents having to look after their own children, then I know what I'd do.

Lots of people have had to make that choice months ago.

But its certainly a good time to test if online computer based training works, in conjunction with Parent working from home. Of course the parent will have better oversight on whats been taught also. Better metrics etc.

jimmytwotimes 2013

beauf wrote: »

There are certain ways to think outside the box.

You don't need to have people in changing rooms in schools either, you can do PE outside.

https://extra.ie/2020/09/20/news/irish-news/school-outside-lessons-dublin

Absolutely but I'm not a principal.

The point being, these things aren't being done and some teachers are p1ssed off over it

Padre_Pio

beauf wrote: »

Lots of people have had to make that choice months ago.

But its certainly a good time to test if online computer based training works, in conjunction with Parent working from home. Of course the parent will have better oversight on whats been taught also. Better metrics etc.

I don't think anyone had to make that choice in the same regard.

HCP in fairness are trained and are more familiar with PPE, and dealing infections (in spite of MRSA) That said, hospitals were emptied at the start of COVID. People were avoiding hospitals so much, the government had to release a statement actually telling people to go to hospital if they needed to.

Everywhere else is limiting number, queue systems, sanitiser, tables in restaurants spaced out, getting people in and out ASAP. Nursing homes are still locked down. Pubs are still closed until this week (again limited numbers) and not opening in Dublin at all.
Many people are still working from home and will likely be until next year.

amacca

beauf wrote: »

Have that done that since March? Kids and teens have been hanging around each other all summer. Has it caused a spread. If not why not. We've really only seen an increase since adults increased contact with each. I'm not saying it hasn't happened with younger kids. But its not reflected in the stats. (that we are are aware of).

No I don't think they have been doing that since March tbh

I don't believe they have been indoors with up to 30 other teenagers in a room for six hours a day in a building with over a thousand other students sharing the general space around them etc etc

Again I hope you are right but I think they have respiratory tracts like everyone else which makes them just as much of a risk and they are more likely to be asymptomatic carriers and not adhere to hygiene/social distancing as well as some adults (hopefully a majority of adults although looking around me I'm not sure that the adults are any better)...so that makes them more of a risk in my eyes

I suppose time will tell....but the waters/stats might be muddied by the way information etc is being ...whats the right word to indicate not being freely shared + not gathering the information in the first place so it won't be recorded (again it might not be feasible money wise to test willy nilly so i'm not necessarily criticising that but keeping teachers/classmates and parents in the dark surely deserves a bit of debate on the pros and cons/motivation)

we will see if the problem gets bad enough I suppose enough people will question where its coming from...I kind of think schools are another very significant link in the chain they've connected up in full

Padre_Pio

beauf wrote: »

Some schools are using school halls and other workaround as overflow halls.

I don't understand this comment.
I suppose I can safely assume that everyone here has spent at least a decade in school, and the last 6 months observing social distancing.

Can anyone confidently say the schools they were in could accommodate social distancing for all their student, with the same number of teachers?

You'd have to triple the classroom size of my primary and secondary.

Also the "some schools" comment is nonsense. There must be some cohension or strategy that ALL schools need to meet. What's the point of doing things by halves? Should we accept that certain schools are exempt from social distancing?

beauf

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I don't think anyone had to make that choice in the same regard.

HCP in fairness are trained and are more familiar with PPE, and dealing infections (in spite of MRSA) That said, hospitals were emptied at the start of COVID. People were avoiding hospitals so much, the government had to release a statement actually telling people to go to hospital if they needed to.

Everywhere else is limiting number, queue systems, sanitiser, tables in restaurants spaced out, getting people in and out ASAP. Nursing homes are still locked down. Pubs are still closed until this week (again limited numbers) and not opening in Dublin at all.
Many people are still working from home and will likely be until next year.

Schools also emptied.

Nursing homes are locked down for a good reason. We hardly need to repeat why...again...

Many people not working from home, never have.

All these places have reopened in limited ways. In Dublin its obviously gone backwards.

So what increase in schools is causing them to stop after 3 weeks.

[Deleted User]

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I don't think anyone had to make that choice in the same regard.

There in will be your handicap. Not understanding or accepting that virtually everyone has had to make that choice, but out of necessity it wasn’t really a choice at all. We have to get on with it. That is why you will struggle to get public support from anyone who has gone back to work.

Out of interest, if you do refuse to work due to Covid, do you continue to be paid or will you have to go on PUP? If parents have to stop working/get paid due to strike action, while you get paid, the public will justifiably be livid.

beauf

amacca wrote: »

No I don't think they have been doing that since March tbh

I don't believe they have been indoors with up to 30 other teenagers in a room for six hours a day in a building with over a thousand other students sharing the general space around them etc etc

Again I hope you are right but I think they have respiratory tracts like everyone else which makes them just as much of a risk and they are more likely to be asymptomatic carriers and not adhere to hygiene/social distancing as well as some adults (hopefully a majority of adults although looking around me I'm not sure that the adults are any better)...so that makes them more of a risk in my eyes

I suppose time will tell....but the waters/stats might be muddied by the way information etc is being ...whats the right word to indicate not being freely shared + not gathering the information in the first place so it won't be recorded (again it might not be feasible money wise to test willy nilly so i'm not necessarily criticising that but keeping teachers/classmates and parents in the dark surely deserves a bit of debate on the pros and cons/motivation)

we will see if the problem gets bad enough I suppose enough people will question where its coming from...I kind of think schools are another very significant link in the chain they've connected up in full

Well its a test isn't it. It either works or it doesn't. Unless you try how will we know.

Padre_Pio

beauf wrote: »

Schools also emptied.

Nursing homes are locked down for a good reason. We hardly need to repeat why...again...

Many people not working from home, never have.

All these places have reopened in limited ways. In Dublin its obviously gone backwards.

So what increase in schools is causing them to stop after 3 weeks.

I covered your points.
Many schools cannot reopen in limited ways. Is that an acceptable risk?

Regarding increase, I would imagine it's the same increase causing Dublin to re-enter a limited lockdown.
Teachers (and everyone) are entitled to work in a safe environment. NPHET and the HSE defined what that was. Many schools cannot meet that definition and their calls for clarification have been ignored.

Advice was given to schools (you can see it on the gov.ie website) but the jist of the advice is "do the best you can".

Treppen

beauf wrote: »

What % it kids in the age range you are teaching get covid? Those that get it what % get it in school.

How many teachers have got it in school.

They don't seem to give out those statistics. But if they did you think it would ease people's concerns. Or at least make them have an informed opinion.

If a kid gets in and no one in their class has it then it suggests they didn't get it in school. Etc. Thus far when someone in a class gets it, it a school it doesn't seem to spread any further. As they let the classes and school go back to work. Like wise in kids sports GAA etc.

It's hard to make an informed opinion without information, or give an informed comment. I hope the unions are well informed enough about this to act on it appropriately.

That sounds a bit like the Luke O Neil position which was jumped on by Micheal Martin at the end of August.
i. e. 'So far kids only contract the virus at home so schools should be safe'
.
.
.
Completely ignoring the fact that there's no evidence because kids hadn't been to school since March 13th!

beauf

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I don't understand this comment.
I suppose I can safely assume that everyone here has spent at least a decade in school, and the last 6 months observing social distancing.

See this is where you have a problem. Most people have indeed spent at least decade and longer in school, then college etc. They will have experience of it as parents. Many will have dealt with far more complex environments than a school. That's not to dismiss it. Its a tough environment.

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Can anyone confidently say the schools they were in could accommodate social distancing for all their student, with the same number of teachers?

You'd have to triple the classroom size of my primary and secondary.

There are workarounds. you have to think outside of the box.

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Also the "some schools" comment is nonsense. There must be some cohension or strategy that ALL schools need to meet. What's the point of doing things by halves? Should we accept that certain schools are exempt from social distancing?

Schools are social distancing. if you are in a school that has done nothing then thats a local issue.

But I don't get the defeatist attitude out of the gate.

Treppen

Interesting!
Haven't heard any mention of the ballot in the news all day. Maybe I missed it.

Did Brendan O Connor or 1pm show mention it today?

Polka_Dot

beauf wrote: »

Well its a test isn't it. It either works or it doesn't. Unless you try how will we know.

Why should it be treated as a test at all? I appreciate that there is no simple or overall solution, but there was plenty of time between the 13th of March and when schools reopened to consider how we could reopen safely. The reality was a set of vague guidelines 3 weeks before we opened, which at first did not even recommend face coverings until that was challenged by the unions. Of course we will have to see how things work, but the way you put it sounds like you are okay with thousands of lives being gambled as a "test."

amacca

beauf wrote: »

Well its a test isn't it. It either works or it doesn't. Unless you try how will we know.

I'm not sure I understand you?......it is being tried, this is playing out right now, time will tell if they are significant when it comes to the spread of the disease

The experiment is playing out right now.......typing unless you try when the thing is already happening seems a bit moot...they have been trying, they are open

unless you think you are making some sort of moral point here:)

beauf

amacca wrote: »

No I don't think they have been doing that since March tbh

I don't believe they have been indoors with up to 30 other teenagers in a room for six hours a day in a building with over a thousand other students sharing the general space around them etc etc

Again I hope you are right but I think they have respiratory tracts like everyone else which makes them just as much of a risk and they are more likely to be asymptomatic carriers and not adhere to hygiene/social distancing as well as some adults (hopefully a majority of adults although looking around me I'm not sure that the adults are any better)...so that makes them more of a risk in my eyes

I suppose time will tell....but the waters/stats might be muddied by the way information etc is being ...whats the right word to indicate not being freely shared + not gathering the information in the first place so it won't be recorded (again it might not be feasible money wise to test willy nilly so i'm not necessarily criticising that but keeping teachers/classmates and parents in the dark surely deserves a bit of debate on the pros and cons/motivation)

we will see if the problem gets bad enough I suppose enough people will question where its coming from...I kind of think schools are another very significant link in the chain they've connected up in full

Well you could decide never to have 30 kids in a room ever again, unless you test first comprehensively that it won't be a problem. But you can't test it as you won't allow them in the room in the first place. Nice catch 22.

Maybe it will be a problem. How do you plan on finding out?

beauf

Treppen wrote: »

That sounds a bit like the Luke O Neil position which was jumped on by Micheal Martin at the end of August.
i. e. 'So far kids only contract the virus at home so schools should be safe'
.
.
.
Completely ignoring the fact that there's no evidence because kids hadn't been to school since March 13th!

Another strawman. Kids have been in contact with other. There is evidence.

You are just choosing to ignore it unless it exactly the same.

Padre_Pio

beauf wrote: »

Many will have dealt with far more complex environments than a school. That's not to dismiss it. Its a tough environment.

There are workarounds. you have to think outside of the box.

Schools are social distancing. if you are in a school that has done nothing then thats a local issue.

But I don't get the defeatist attitude out of the gate.

I don't understand? Complex environments? I would have though an environment which has historically suffered for aging facilities and overcrowding and is now back at 100% occupancy AND being asked to social distance would be very complex.

"Workarounds" sounds very much like Boris Johnson's "technological border solutions". If there are workarounds, they should applied fairly and uniformly. As I said above, the only workaround right now is do the best you can.

Many schools are not capable of social distancing and following government guidelines, that's why this thread exists.

beauf

amacca wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand you?......it is being tried, this is playing out right now, time will tell if they are significant when it comes to the spread of the disease

The experiment is playing out right now.......typing unless you try when the thing is already happening seems a bit moot...they have been trying, they are open

unless you think you are making some sort of moral point here:)

The thread is about the strike. If you shut down the schools now. What will you have tried.

spurious

Christ.

Closing this again to deal with rubbish.

**edit
Open again, but enough with the childish sniping and digs.
The issue is how Covid-19 is being addressed (or not) in schools, teacher and pupil safety and whether or not to strike or take other action.

beauf

Is there an official list published some where of what the specific issues that that are on the ballot. Or is that a members only list.

amacca

beauf wrote: »

The thread is about the strike. If you shut down the schools now. What will you have tried.

Who is shutting them down now?

Its a ballot, if ...if they are shut down its not happening tomorrow...there will be another couple of weeks to run before a shutdown ..that and the two to three weeks beforehand that have already been tried....like I said time will tell.

.thats more time for that data to build up....if its being fully and accurately recorded I suppose

You seem to think im advocating for an immediate shutdown as if that could even happen.

You seem pretty riled up for person just debating an issue if you dont mind me saying ..and you seem to be under the illusion that teachers are responsible for making the rules regarding when they return and the manner of that return .

beauf

I'm simply asking what statistics is this ballot on...

Not sure how simply asking a questions, or exploring the issues in discussion is being riled up. Even if I was, it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. Are we not allowed ask questions in a thread about education....

jimmytwotimes 2013

beauf wrote: »

I'm simply asking what statistics is this ballot on...

Not sure how simply asking a questions, or exploring the issues in discussion is being riled up. Even if I was, it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. Are we not allowed ask questions in a thread about education....

Stats as in school cases?

Most only open 2 wks so there won't be much.

Prob not a good idea to wait for the horse to bolt (if it does, might not) and then vote.

I think a lot of schools think things could be organised much better. Voting on that doesn't require statistics?

Bobtheman

Dav010 wrote: »

Just what the country needs, a teachers strike which causes students to miss more school time and forces parents to take time off work. Grandparents won’t be there to help out this time.

Tone deaf guys. I cannot see public sympathy coming down on your side.

Sorry but I don't give a flying ****. Its about health and lives. You don't win a dispute by getting the public on side. You get it by pissing them off. Unfortunately a lot of teachers raised on the bull**** propagated by the independent believe they are lucky to have any old job at all. Remember joe public thought we'd have a soft landing and Eamon gilmore would save them from all cutbacks.So forgive me if I don't give a **** what you or joe public thinks !

Bubbaclaus

Bobtheman wrote: »

Sorry but I don't give a flying ****. Its about health and lives. You don't win a dispute by getting the public on side. You get it by pissing them off. Unfortunately a lot of teachers raised on the bull**** propagated by the independent believe they are lucky to have any old job at all. Remember joe public thought we'd have a soft landing and Eamon gilmore would save them from all cutbacks.So forgive me if I don't give a **** what you or joe public thinks !

And the above is why the general public's opinion of public sector unions has soured greatly in the last few decades.

Bobtheman

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

And the above is why the general public's opinion of public sector unions has soured greatly in the last few decades.

<snip abuse>
Union membership has declined across all sectors last 20 years - result gig culture and zero hour contracts. I have seen the working man generally screwed . But you keep buying the independent and wondering why this nation is so ****ed up in terms of housing etc
A union is to be feared. You don't want to be loved.
Look what that did to LPTs
Now I block you. <snip abuse>

spurious

Two day break from the forum for Bobtheman. No need for personal abuse.

Bubbaclaus

Any word from the primary school unions?

The Belly

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Any word from the primary school unions?

not yet but unions across the board are starting up