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Asti strike action

Bobtheman

So according to reports we are to be balloted. Have tunned out of Asti events last few years because of the members cowardice. And a lack of leadership from headquarters/SC. I was surprised to hear about a ballot. To me it came out of the blue.
I do believe the issues are important.
I will vote yes to strike action.
I see a ballot being carried 60-40.

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Blondini

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

It's about ensuring the country still has a minimal amount of function in all the key areas. Also remaining open at level 5 would be hospitals, grocery stores, garda stations, post offices, nursing homes, public transport, GPs, pharmacy, fire stations etc etc. So it is about ensuring that the vital resources in the country continue to function at all times.

None of the above include poorly ventilated, crowded, busy spaces with sometimes 1000 people packed in. Additionally, in secondary schools, a lot of the young people are adult size.

is_that_so

ulsen wrote: »

As I understand it, the Union has tried to talk with the department, the department has ignored them. Teachers aren't going out on strike straight away, this is to ballot teachers so that the option of going on strike is there if the department of education continue to ignore the unions legitimate concerns.

Well they'll look a whole lot worse if they ballot for it especially when the rest of the country is working hard together. There's always time for talking. A quote from a man who never gave up!

When people are divided, the only solution is agreement - John Hume

mirrorwall14

The size of secondary schools in particular is just not understood. Ours has 780 students across two buildings. We are bursting at the seams, almost all classrooms in use every single class period. We’ve managed to base the first years entirely in their rooms but that’s not possible with options and levels with all other year groups. So the fifth, sixth, TYs are based out of one building as much as possible (options still an issue) and first/second/third out of the other. But the whole year group is essentially a pod which is 150 students. And the second/third years are on the same floor of one building and are sharing bathrooms. I don’t know how you wouldn’t consider the whole of 2nd/3rd close contacts if there was a case tbh.

There are more people in our two buildings than have been allowed meet anywhere else. And our senior cycle students are full grown adults. 1m social distancing from the shoulder on the diagonal (to be sure they are as close as possible to fit us in) means you can barely walk straight between the rows of desks. It’s not remotely comparable to classrooms I’ve seen in other countries tbh

mirrorwall14

And to add, the lack of transparency is horrifying. How many cases were there in the Celbridge outbreak? How many teachers? How many students? What were the systems in place? None of that is published. It’s barely been covered. Compare that to the meat factory wall to wall coverage, add in the drogheda school all being told the app was wrong and it practically feels like a cover up just to make sure we stay at work regardlezz

rainbowtrout

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I assume there are restrictions on visitors to schools also? I would be astounded if not.

Hospitals tend to be quite crowded in certain departments. Particularly in ED. Aren't 30% of COVID cases medical staff?

Oh there's restrictions on visitors, but are there 500+ people coming and going every day in a nursing home like there is in a school? I doubt it.

I couldn't comment on A&E numbers, but anecdotally the numbers visiting A&E plummeted during lockdown.

Not sure why you are determined to imply that schools are not a problem.

ulsen

is_that_so wrote: »

Well they'll look a whole lot worse if they ballot for it especially when the rest of the country is working hard together. There's always time for talking. A quote from a man who never gave up!

When people are divided, the only solution is agreement - John Hume

Optics, and how things look to the rest of the country, doesn't and shouldn't be the concern of the union, especially when it comes to the health, wellbeing and working conditions of it's representatives- teachers. Nicely intended quotes won't get the department of education to talk- unfortunately it takes the threat of strikes or legal action to make the department listen.

Bubbaclaus

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Oh there's restrictions on visitors, but are there 500+ people coming and going every day in a nursing home like there is in a school? I doubt it.

I couldn't comment on A&E numbers, but anecdotally the numbers visiting A&E plummeted during lockdown.

Not sure why you are determined to imply that schools are not a problem.

Where am I implying that? Seems you are putting words into my posts that arent there.

I haven't seen much in the way of practical solutions being proposed in this thread, which is why I was asking about what proposals people have in the first place.

If a secondary school is wedged with 800 pupils and it is being proposed to strike over that, fair enough that there are concerns, but what is the solution?

is_that_so

ulsen wrote: »

Optics, and how things look to the rest of the country, doesn't and shouldn't be the concern of the union, especially when it comes to the health, wellbeing and working conditions of it's representatives- teachers. Nicely intended quotes won't get the department of education to talk- unfortunately it takes the threat of strikes or legal action to make the department listen.

Well, this looks exactly like the kind of approach to make people listen. It's not a nicely intended quote - it's where disputes end up and he knew it. Better to keep talking than have to go through the communication failure of a strike to do so. Optics or not teachers will really not come out of it well if they choose a strike.

SligoBrewer

Teachers won't come out of it well if they get covid.

Mardy Bum

It is great to see the union actually do its job. Ireland is becoming a corporate state in the same vein as the US so whenever any union puts its a head above the parapet it will be blasted by the full force of the neoliberal regime.

Members should hold their heads high. Irish students are among the most literate on the planet and we are producing well rounded individuals who find success across the world. Other sectors in our economy are failing through poor management and leadership (HSE cough).

jimmytwotimes 2013

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

If a secondary school is wedged with 800 pupils and it is being proposed to strike over that, fair enough that there are concerns, but what is the solution?

Any ideas other than a full return don't seem to have been entertained.

One idea- a 4-day week for students and a 5-day week for teachers. Rotate the day each year group misses so no subject is disproportionately hit on existing timetable (they're hardly going to redo timetables now). This wud reduce student capacity by 29% each day, free up space on buses, free up room to make classes smaller for students on site and less crowds in corridors on yards etc.

When at home, the students cud have work assigned, email teachers during their timetabled slot on that day or maybe have a remote lesson one day a week, broadband permitting (still a massive issue in rural areas)

Basically anything other than a full return and just hoping for the best.

The above wud be very easy to implement.

Bobtheman

I don't think most teachers are in favor of shutting schools wholesale. Some movement on high risk teachers and investment in IT might mollify us. Perhaps an inspection system too ?
But bottom line is current bull**** local arrangements can't be a national plan.
Plus the ASTI has raised the issue of school mgt pulling fast ones in terms of work practices.

shesty

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

And to add, the lack of transparency is horrifying. How many cases were there in the Celbridge outbreak? How many teachers? How many students? What were the systems in place? None of that is published. It’s barely been covered. Compare that to the meat factory wall to wall coverage, add in the drogheda school all being told the app was wrong and it practically feels like a cover up just to make sure we stay at work regardlezz

As a parent, this is driving me nuts.Chinese whispers and secrecy around it all, what is the point?I have heard crazy things from fellow parents in the last 2 weeks, crazy theories being formed as a result of 'he said, she said' and hearsay.This nonsense of keeping everyone in the dark has absolutely no benefit, it does nothing to contain people's worries or fears.Unless therejs something the Dept and HSE have to hide on their side, even basic information like school X has one positive case and 2 weeks later "school X is now clear "(at present obviously).I see a number back on this thread here of 155 cases in schools.....but how many of those are now passed and the school is back to normal?It doesn't make sense to be making a big secret out of it, we all know it is happening.

Bubbaclaus

Mardy Bum wrote: »

It is great to see the union actually do its job. Ireland is becoming a corporate state in the same vein as the US so whenever any union puts its a head above the parapet it will be blasted by the full force of the neoliberal regime.

Members should hold their heads high. Irish students are among the most literate on the planet and we are producing well rounded individuals who find success across the world. Other sectors in our economy are failing through poor management and leadership (HSE cough).

Careful you don't fall off that pedestal. Don't think it is appropriate to be bashing other parts of the public sector on this thread, particularly one that has been front and centre working through the pandemic and putting the wellbeing of others ahead of their own.

Bobtheman

I think it's not fair to compare say a school to a hospital.
HSE certainly has poor leadership. The waiting lists are proof enough of that but by and large they have performed well in the current crisis.
But that gratitude won't wash when you are told your 3 year old must wait two years for speech therapy.

beauf

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We don't know that yet. We are only back a three weeks. If a student gets covid, by the time they show symptoms, are tested, and isolate, it will probably be another week before other students show symptoms.

Also what has to be taken into account (and isn't) is that many of these students are mixing at lunchtime without masks on, and outside school.

Three weeks back is too soon to have any definitive statistics on schools.

Kids have been mixing since march? Lots of sorts clubs back a decent amount of time. They should know the stats from kids presenting in with symptoms a very long time now. They wouldn't have been stopped back if kids mixing was a significant risk .

We've already had cases in schools, tested and returned.

rainbowtrout

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Where am I implying that? Seems you are putting words into my posts that arent there.

I haven't seen much in the way of practical solutions being proposed in this thread, which is why I was asking about what proposals people have in the first place.

If a secondary school is wedged with 800 pupils and it is being proposed to strike over that, fair enough that there are concerns, but what is the solution?

It's the comparison with other public services which remained open during the height of the lockdown, you are comparing schools to post offices and pharmacies, which are in no way providing the same service or dealing with the same volume of people over the course of the day or all at once.

rainbowtrout

The_Dazzler wrote: »

Been doing that since March in hospital. At least teachers got as few months off. worked from home

FYP.

Padre_Pio

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Where am I implying that? Seems you are putting words into my posts that arent there.

I haven't seen much in the way of practical solutions being proposed in this thread, which is why I was asking about what proposals people have in the first place.

Fortunately, a teacher's job is to teach, not come up with national disease prevention strategies.

That's the job of NPHET and the HSE, who have been woefully silent on the matter.

jimmytwotimes 2013

beauf wrote: »

Kids have been mixing since march? Lots of sorts clubs back a decent amount of time. They should know the stats from kids presenting in with symptoms a very long time now. They wouldn't have been stopped back if kids mixing was a significant risk .

We've already had cases in schools, tested and returned.

What clubs have a few hundred members?

Most sports clubs are not using changing rooms and kids arrive dressed for the sport in question. Certain schools are still using changing rooms for some reason. This is the problem with local arrangements. One school I know of, in our locality, still use changing rooms, lockers, dont give mask breaks and prohibit class taking place outdoors, seems daft to me

The pinch points in schools are crowding on buses, changing rooms, corridors, canteens and classrooms. None of these compare to training with 30 kids outdoors during the summer. (most of these areas shud have been addressed but haven't been as far as I can I see)

Bubbaclaus

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Fortunately, a teacher's job is to teach, not come up with national disease prevention strategies.

That's the job of NPHET and the HSE, who have been woefully silent on the matter.

I see. So the proposed strike is coming with no solutions? That seems odd to me.

Although "that's not my job" does seem to be prevalent in the public sector across the board in Ireland, so not overly surprised to see the phrase popping up here.

amacca

beauf wrote: »

Kids have been mixing since march? Lots of sorts clubs back a decent amount of time. They should know the stats from kids presenting in with symptoms a very long time now. They wouldn't have been stopped back if kids mixing was a significant risk .

I hope you are correct

I cant logically see how you could be mind you....id have thought they would be a huge risk for causing spread

They are more likely to be asymptomatic carriers correct? Then when they go back to their homes with the best will in the world + hygiene one would have to imagine the virus will spread to siblings/parents.....then they bring it with them to other locations etc

jetfiremuck

Ok. Lets say for s&g that teachers are coming down with covid or suspected covid in the coming winter months left and right and upon investigation etc was found in the schools population and the lack of adequate prevention measures. What then? They are out of substitute teachers....now what..........well. Is it the teachers fault or.....get on with it from the clowns in Gov.

jetfiremuck

Thank god my mother retired before all this. If any teacher is near retirement age in a year or two......id recommend bailing now. Its not worth it. Health wise imo.

Padre_Pio

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I see. So the proposed strike is coming with no solutions? That seems odd to me.

Although "that's not my job" does seem to be prevalent in the public sector across the board in Ireland, so not overly surprised to see the phrase popping up here.

But in this instance it is entirely justified. The issues have been described in this thread. It's up to NPHET, the HSE and the dept. of education to come up with a solution.

Colleges across the country are moving partially or entirely online.
Engineering courses with 30 contact hours a week are down to 6 or 7 hours to enable social distancing, with the remainder online.

Maybe that's the solution? Of course this means parents will probably need to be home to look after children too young to mind themselves, but I suppose the responsibility of the school is to educate, not babysit.

Polka_Dot

Definitely think this needs to go ahead but expecting zero sympathy. There simply is no comparison with any other job sector. I'm happy to be in the classroom, I'm happy to do my job, but I'm not happy with the prevention measures in place. Particularly the secrecy and the changing definition of "close contact" for teachers/students.

Mardy Bum

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Careful you don't fall off that pedestal. Don't think it is appropriate to be bashing other parts of the public sector on this thread, particularly one that has been front and centre working through the pandemic and putting the wellbeing of others ahead of their own.

Irish teachers are amongst the the best on the planet despite having one of the lowest investment rates in the OECD. Irish teachers are not babysitters.

We will uphold our already diminished conditions as they are rather than letting them deteriorate to the point where every second newspaper article is lamenting the state of the sector (which is the position currently held by the HSE).

beauf

amacca wrote: »

I hope you are correct

I cant logically see how you could be mind you....id have thought they would be a huge risk for causing spread

They are more likely to be asymptomatic carriers correct? Then when they go back to their homes with the best will in the world + hygiene one would have to imagine the virus will spread to siblings/parents.....then they bring it with them to other locations etc

Have that done that since March? Kids and teens have been hanging around each other all summer. Has it caused a spread. If not why not. We've really only seen an increase since adults increased contact with each. I'm not saying it hasn't happened with younger kids. But its not reflected in the stats. (that we are are aware of).

jimmytwotimes 2013

beauf wrote: »

Have that done that since March? Kids and teens have been hanging around each other all summer. Has it caused a spread. If not why not. We've really only seen an increase since adults increased contact with each. I'm not saying it hasn't happened with younger kids. But its not reflected in the stats. (that we are are aware of).

Playing outdoors and being in a school environment are not comparable. Why does this argument keep coming up?

jetfiremuck

And what about the parents that have no issue sending a kid to school dosed with calpol knowing the child is sick.........will that change do you think?