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Random EV thoughts.....

Old diesel

The main motors forum has the motors chat thread for the little things one would like to say but might not justify a thread.

Thought it might be an idea for here re hybrids and EV stuff.....

To kick off - i wonder if a new measurement for EVs might be assuming a start trip at 100 percent......

A how much range do you get with a 15 minute stop.

With a 350 kw charging a Porsche Tayman might do very well with getting on for 400 miles...

A Leaf 62 not so good.

Obviously where a car can do more then 50 kw charging we would need both a 50 kw and a whatever the cars top rate is figure*.

*IF chargers are available

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JohnC.

Sport EV company Rimac are apparently buying Bugatti from VAG.

Meanwhile, Porsche, part of VAG, have increased their stake in Rimac, and are thought to be angling to buy it.

Must all be arranged by Christopher Nolan.

slave1

Personally I can't stand them, it's like giving up smoking at the weekends only....PHEVs

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54170207

liamog

Let's say your a car enthusiast and like to change into new cars, its an expensive hobby but you can afford it.

If you pay 50k cash, you've just sank all of your money into a costly item that will lose value.
If you use HP or an unsecured loan to pay the 50k, then you've made the same monetary commitment but with interest on top.
If you use PCP you've agreed to buy X percentage of the car over 3 years, in the case of a GMFV set at 45%, you've basically decided to buy 55% of the vehicle. Aftet the three years are up you are are given a guaranteed option price to purchase the remainder.

So for example with our Ioniq (simplified to remove interest), we obtained a car that cost 26k by agreeing to spend 18k (and a Punto). At the end of the term I then had to decide if I wanted to buy a 3 year old Ioniq for 8k.

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

I'd rather put the risk on the bank than myself

I've heard Mad_Lad say the same, but I don't get this.

In PCP, how is the bank taking on any risk? Isn't the borrower deemed credit worthy? Isn't the car the guaranteed asset?
The car will be comprehensively insured so no difference if stolen etc.?

Unless the car's value drops to under 45% in three years, which is unlikely, I don't see it?

Added to that, the initial deposit will go a long way towards covering the huge initial depreciation, so even if the borrower stopped paying after 6 months, with the car resold at 20% loss from new, they'd still break even/profit.

Happy to be shown what I'm missing?

Water John

jaxxx wrote: »

Full electric or hybrid? I'd be driving max 50km a day, if even; probably closer to just over half that.

Being facetious I'd say an electric bike under the bike to work scheme.
Really, have you any long journeys, or is it all urban driving and just yourself?
Don't know if they're going to import any Citreon Ami.
https://www.completecar.ie/car-news/article/9873/Citroen-Ami-two-seat-electric-car-unveiled

jaxxx

Full electric or hybrid? I'd be driving max 50km a day, if even; probably closer to just over half that.

liamog

Black_Knight wrote: »

Would it make you reconsider?

For me, I don't plan to hold a car till it depreciates to €0, when buying new I'd rather put the risk on the bank than myself, so tend to only look at the deposit+monthlies as the cost of the car, and plan to have put aside another 10% deposit at the end of the term.

If you look at a normal PCP with a 45% GMFV (roughly what BMW are offering on the Mini) then the car goes from being €536/month with a €3,500 deposit to being €566/month with a €3,700 deposit, assuming that they use the same future value percentage over the 3 years it only costs me an extra €1,280. (36*30 + 200)
So in truth I'd probably still do it.

Black_Knight

jhegarty wrote: »

So SR+ goes up and Performance goes down.

I guess it makes more sense on ice cars. Everything goes up

jhegarty

liamog wrote: »

VRT is calculated on 14% of the OMSP (Open Market Selling Price) which is some kind of magic number decided by the importer.
The VRT rebate then returns the first €5,000.

So for instance my Mini Electric has €5772.82 VRT the first €5,000 is excluded meaning I only pay €772.82.
If they change the rate to 7% and remove the rebate, I'd have to pay €2,861.41 VRT.

And on a Model 3 :

SR+ Base Price : € 55,800 (vrt logic I don't get)
14% = €7812 - €5000 = € 2812
7% = €3906

Performance Base Price : € 75,000 (vrt logic I don't get)
14% = €10500 - €5000 = € 5500
7% = €5250

So SR+ goes up and Performance goes down.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

VRT is calculated on 14% of the OMSP (Open Market Selling Price) which is some kind of magic number decided by the importer.
The VRT rebate then returns the first €5,000.

So for instance my Mini Electric has €5772.82 VRT the first €5,000 is excluded meaning I only pay €772.82.
If they change the rate to 7% and remove the rebate, I'd have to pay €2,861.41 VRT.

Would it make you reconsider?

Black_Knight

Water John wrote: »

Our Ioniq was priced at €48K gross, paid €37K.

Given the talk of tapering the 5k grant, that 37k could be 41k after the budget. And we thought 37k was a rip off for the new ioniq. (I thought it was 35k actually, no??)

liamog

VRT is calculated on 14% of the OMSP (Open Market Selling Price) which is some kind of magic number decided by the importer.
The VRT rebate then returns the first €5,000.

OMSP Definition for New Cars

The value for VRT of a new vehicle on sale in the State which is supplied by a
manufacturer or sole wholesale distributor, is the price, inclusive of all taxes and
duties, declared to the Commissioners, in the prescribed manner, by the
manufacturer or distributor, which, in his/her opinion, a vehicle of that model and
specification, including any enhancements or accessories fitted or attached thereto
or supplied therewith by such manufacturer or distributor, might reasonably be
expected to fetch on a first arm’s length sale thereof in the open market in the State
by retail.

So for instance my Mini Electric has €5772.82 VRT the first €5,000 is excluded meaning I only pay €772.82.
If they change the rate to 7% and remove the rebate, I'd have to pay €2,861.41 VRT.

Water John

Our Ioniq was priced at €48K gross, paid €37K.

graememk

Water John wrote: »

The car dealership usually look after the paperwork on SEAI and VRT and you pay the net price.

Yeah of course thats their job.

I was just wondering how the VRT was actually calculated. for instance, the E Niro, its sitting at about 41k or so will that car lose all the VRT rebate?

(doesnt matter to me, i have my car. Just interested in the math)

amadangomor

cannco253 wrote: »

Interesting article about Scotland EV loans - would this ever happen here?

"Scotland’s government will extend the Low Carbon Transport Loan to cover used EVs for the first time, starting on September 28. The extension will now enable an individual or business to obtain a loan of up to £20,000, interest free, over five years."

https://electrek.co/2020/09/15/scotland-interest-free-government-loans-used-evs/?fbclid=IwAR0krxGIBKCyY_Vi4Aoa4OvFspEnwHGNu1uk7MKrqerZY0y43zlAiazYpdw

I would jump at this if it happened here.

With the government's ability to borrow very cheaply at the moment it wouldn't cost them too much to roll it out.

Black_Knight

Laviski wrote: »

when budget is out will make for some reading.
grant to be tapered off for car's above 40k, nothing for anything 50k+
changes to the motor tax, EV should benefit but ICE cars will pay more.

What EV is there for less than 40k pre grants? Not sure any EV is an economical buy without the grants. Id4, enyaq, neither will be affordable here.

Water John

The car dealership usually look after the paperwork on SEAI and VRT and you pay the net price.

graememk

Laviski wrote: »

when budget is out will make for some reading.
grant to be tapered off for car's above 40k, nothing for anything 50k+
changes to the motor tax, EV should benefit but ICE cars will pay more.

Well no mention of the grant in the rumours, but the VRT exemption is.

What way is the VRT calculated on new electric cars?

Say private buyer walks in and buys a car for 40k

in that 40k there is a VRT rebate of 5k and an SEAI grant of 5k

Is VRT calculated on the non grant price, Looking on the revenues website, its percentage payable of the open market selling price.

So the same new car without the seai grant and VRT rebate would be 50k? So 7000 euro of VRT? 14% of 50k

Then the SEAI grant comes off it, and then also the VRT rebate comes off it, and we're back to 40k?

Laviski

when budget is out will make for some reading.
grant to be tapered off for car's above 40k, nothing for anything 50k+
changes to the motor tax, EV should benefit but ICE cars will pay more.

MJohnston

And that's not true of Scotland?

slave1

Whatever chance we had of that is blown with Covid costs, we're gonna be a poor country for quite a while

cannco253

Interesting article about Scotland EV loans - would this ever happen here?

"Scotland’s government will extend the Low Carbon Transport Loan to cover used EVs for the first time, starting on September 28. The extension will now enable an individual or business to obtain a loan of up to £20,000, interest free, over five years."

https://electrek.co/2020/09/15/scotland-interest-free-government-loans-used-evs/?fbclid=IwAR0krxGIBKCyY_Vi4Aoa4OvFspEnwHGNu1uk7MKrqerZY0y43zlAiazYpdw

liamog

As implemented by Fastned at the moment it's just using the MAC address as a distinct identifier. The ISO 15118 Plug&Charge system is much more complex. It's all based on PKI, if you want to geek out on it, here's an interesting report https://www.elaad.nl/uploads/files/Exploring_the_PKI_for_ISO_15118_in_the_EV_charging_ecoystem_V1.0s2.pdf

MJohnston

markpb wrote: »

MAC addresses for computers are very predicable. Are CCS MAC addresses any different?

They have the same upper 24-bit manufacturer addressing, but I don't think you can predict anything beyond that (that's a guess though!) and network sniffing is the only practical way of getting a valid MAC to misuse (remember you'd have to guess not only a specific car, but one that has been registered with that exact auto-charging network).

This could all be solved with a bit of simple 2-factor authentication though — car is plugged in, MAC address matches, owner of car matching MAC address gets an app notification or text to tell them that charging will start in 1 minute.

If they do nothing, charging starts. If they respond that it's fraud, then charging does not start, the charging cable locks to the car, and the cops get called (maybe the last two parts are overkill).

markpb

MJohnston wrote: »

Otherwise you'd have to guess the MAC address of a valid car, which would be very difficult.

MAC addresses for computers are very predicable. Are CCS MAC addresses any different?

MJohnston

Here's a white paper on the insecurity of EV chargers:
https://www.usenix.org/system/files/sec19-baker.pdf

There's a section 9.3 that's relevant to this discussion. Essentially, the charging stations themselves are the weak link, as their network communications can be snooped to capture MAC addresses of valid cars charging.

Otherwise you'd have to guess the MAC address of a valid car, which would be very difficult.

Silent Running

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I can guarantee someone's going to try

...or is already doing it, but keeping quiet about it for obvious reasons.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

Probably, but I expect it's going to take a lot of resources to figure out how I'm looking forward to your presentation at DEF CON.

I can guarantee someone's going to try

liamog

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I wonder can I spoof the MAC address to bill the charging to someone else

Probably, but I expect it's going to take a lot of resources to figure out how

I'm looking forward to your presentation at DEF CON.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

It can read the MAC address of the network adapter used as part of the communications when setting up the connection. Plug&Charge is due in the next year or so, which allows digital certificates to be exchanged to identify the charging account. I believe Tesla already use a similar system for billing.

i.e. certificate on the car handles the identification and billing.

I wonder can I spoof the MAC address to bill the charging to someone else