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Random EV thoughts.....

Old diesel

The main motors forum has the motors chat thread for the little things one would like to say but might not justify a thread.

Thought it might be an idea for here re hybrids and EV stuff.....

To kick off - i wonder if a new measurement for EVs might be assuming a start trip at 100 percent......

A how much range do you get with a 15 minute stop.

With a 350 kw charging a Porsche Tayman might do very well with getting on for 400 miles...

A Leaf 62 not so good.

Obviously where a car can do more then 50 kw charging we would need both a 50 kw and a whatever the cars top rate is figure*.

*IF chargers are available

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graememk

Water John wrote: »

The car dealership usually look after the paperwork on SEAI and VRT and you pay the net price.

Yeah of course thats their job.

I was just wondering how the VRT was actually calculated. for instance, the E Niro, its sitting at about 41k or so will that car lose all the VRT rebate?

(doesnt matter to me, i have my car. Just interested in the math)

Water John

Our Ioniq was priced at €48K gross, paid €37K.

liamog

VRT is calculated on 14% of the OMSP (Open Market Selling Price) which is some kind of magic number decided by the importer.
The VRT rebate then returns the first €5,000.

OMSP Definition for New Cars

The value for VRT of a new vehicle on sale in the State which is supplied by a
manufacturer or sole wholesale distributor, is the price, inclusive of all taxes and
duties, declared to the Commissioners, in the prescribed manner, by the
manufacturer or distributor, which, in his/her opinion, a vehicle of that model and
specification, including any enhancements or accessories fitted or attached thereto
or supplied therewith by such manufacturer or distributor, might reasonably be
expected to fetch on a first arm’s length sale thereof in the open market in the State
by retail.

So for instance my Mini Electric has €5772.82 VRT the first €5,000 is excluded meaning I only pay €772.82.
If they change the rate to 7% and remove the rebate, I'd have to pay €2,861.41 VRT.

Black_Knight

Water John wrote: »

Our Ioniq was priced at €48K gross, paid €37K.

Given the talk of tapering the 5k grant, that 37k could be 41k after the budget. And we thought 37k was a rip off for the new ioniq. (I thought it was 35k actually, no??)

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

VRT is calculated on 14% of the OMSP (Open Market Selling Price) which is some kind of magic number decided by the importer.
The VRT rebate then returns the first €5,000.

So for instance my Mini Electric has €5772.82 VRT the first €5,000 is excluded meaning I only pay €772.82.
If they change the rate to 7% and remove the rebate, I'd have to pay €2,861.41 VRT.

Would it make you reconsider?

jhegarty

liamog wrote: »

VRT is calculated on 14% of the OMSP (Open Market Selling Price) which is some kind of magic number decided by the importer.
The VRT rebate then returns the first €5,000.

So for instance my Mini Electric has €5772.82 VRT the first €5,000 is excluded meaning I only pay €772.82.
If they change the rate to 7% and remove the rebate, I'd have to pay €2,861.41 VRT.

And on a Model 3 :

SR+ Base Price : € 55,800 (vrt logic I don't get)
14% = €7812 - €5000 = € 2812
7% = €3906

Performance Base Price : € 75,000 (vrt logic I don't get)
14% = €10500 - €5000 = € 5500
7% = €5250

So SR+ goes up and Performance goes down.

Black_Knight

jhegarty wrote: »

So SR+ goes up and Performance goes down.

I guess it makes more sense on ice cars. Everything goes up

liamog

Black_Knight wrote: »

Would it make you reconsider?

For me, I don't plan to hold a car till it depreciates to €0, when buying new I'd rather put the risk on the bank than myself, so tend to only look at the deposit+monthlies as the cost of the car, and plan to have put aside another 10% deposit at the end of the term.

If you look at a normal PCP with a 45% GMFV (roughly what BMW are offering on the Mini) then the car goes from being €536/month with a €3,500 deposit to being €566/month with a €3,700 deposit, assuming that they use the same future value percentage over the 3 years it only costs me an extra €1,280. (36*30 + 200)
So in truth I'd probably still do it.

jaxxx

Full electric or hybrid? I'd be driving max 50km a day, if even; probably closer to just over half that.

Water John

jaxxx wrote: »

Full electric or hybrid? I'd be driving max 50km a day, if even; probably closer to just over half that.

Being facetious I'd say an electric bike under the bike to work scheme.
Really, have you any long journeys, or is it all urban driving and just yourself?
Don't know if they're going to import any Citreon Ami.
https://www.completecar.ie/car-news/article/9873/Citroen-Ami-two-seat-electric-car-unveiled

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

I'd rather put the risk on the bank than myself

I've heard Mad_Lad say the same, but I don't get this.

In PCP, how is the bank taking on any risk? Isn't the borrower deemed credit worthy? Isn't the car the guaranteed asset?
The car will be comprehensively insured so no difference if stolen etc.?

Unless the car's value drops to under 45% in three years, which is unlikely, I don't see it?

Added to that, the initial deposit will go a long way towards covering the huge initial depreciation, so even if the borrower stopped paying after 6 months, with the car resold at 20% loss from new, they'd still break even/profit.

Happy to be shown what I'm missing?

liamog

Let's say your a car enthusiast and like to change into new cars, its an expensive hobby but you can afford it.

If you pay 50k cash, you've just sank all of your money into a costly item that will lose value.
If you use HP or an unsecured loan to pay the 50k, then you've made the same monetary commitment but with interest on top.
If you use PCP you've agreed to buy X percentage of the car over 3 years, in the case of a GMFV set at 45%, you've basically decided to buy 55% of the vehicle. Aftet the three years are up you are are given a guaranteed option price to purchase the remainder.

So for example with our Ioniq (simplified to remove interest), we obtained a car that cost 26k by agreeing to spend 18k (and a Punto). At the end of the term I then had to decide if I wanted to buy a 3 year old Ioniq for 8k.

slave1

Personally I can't stand them, it's like giving up smoking at the weekends only....PHEVs

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54170207

JohnC.

Sport EV company Rimac are apparently buying Bugatti from VAG.

Meanwhile, Porsche, part of VAG, have increased their stake in Rimac, and are thought to be angling to buy it.

Must all be arranged by Christopher Nolan.

September1

Kramer wrote: »

Unless the car's value drops to under 45% in three years, which is unlikely, I don't see it?

Happy to be shown what I'm missing?

This is what you are missing. In unlikely case car drops below 45% your losses would be limited. Like insurances it protects you from event that is most likely not to happen.

Few years ago there was quite a slump in EV values and many LEAF owners were in position where best option for them was to return car and if they liked it buy it back for fraction of final payment.

Earlier I think at some point of crisis a decade ago many regular buyers were left with cars worth less than outstanding finance.

I would guess most typical would be if car expected to be nice is found to have some flaw which causes its second hand value to collapse.

Theses events are outliers, but when they happen you get some protection from high unexpected depreciation.

MJohnston

Haven’t been able to try them out yet but iOS 14 has a couple of new features for EV users:

- Apple Maps now contains EV routing, range calculation and stuff. Actually don’t think this is available in Ireland yet ugh
- CarPlay now supports EV apps, although presumably no apps will have time to update yet.

Kramer

September1 wrote: »

This is what you are missing. In unlikely case car drops below 45% your losses would be limited.

Taking into account at least a 10% deposit, or trade in to at least 10% initially, a car would have to lose 2/3rds of its value in the 3 year PCP term, before there would be any risk to the finance provider/company.
That doesn't even take into account any payments/interest the borrower will have paid in the 3 years.

I understand there were great deals years ago on PCP, especially relating to 24kWh Leafs, but I very much doubt multi-billion €uro finance companies, with whole departments of actuaries & economists, are exposing themselves to much risk.

PCP is obviously hugely profitable for them & manufacturers - most UK main dealers now make next to nothing from cash sales, the profit is in the loans/finance/PCP.

It's like PHEVs though - if you can make it work for you, so much the better.
I'm not knocking it, but still see it as a tool to maximise profit, not unburden borrowers from risk.

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

I understand there were great deals years ago on PCP, especially relating to 24kWh Leafs, but I very much doubt multi-billion €uro finance companies, with whole departments of actuaries & economists, are exposing themselves to much risk.

At the end of the day it's a gamble, the structure of the PCP with it's GMFV means the finance house can get a car into a customers hands for a cheaper monthly price, as you've seen it's a low risk gamble on behalf of the manufacturers behalf.

The bit I really don't understand is when people place 30% deposits on low interest PCPs, if VW bank are offering you a loan at 1.9%, and you have a mortgage at 2.5%, it makes way more sense to put the 20% of the car purchase into paying your mortgage early instead of tying it up as a car payment. I was always taught to pay debts in order of interest rates, highest ones first.

unkel

liamog wrote: »

The bit I really don't understand is when people place 30% deposits on low interest PCPs, if VW bank are offering you a loan at 1.9%, and you have a mortgage at 2.5%, it makes way more sense to put the 20% of the car purchase into paying your mortgage early instead of tying it up as a car payment. I was always taught to pay debts in order of interest rates, highest ones first.

In general that's a good rule of thumb, but in practice, if you default on your car's payment, your car will be repossessed in no time. Default on your mortgage and nothing like that is going to happen. Also a house is essential and it is an asset, that's likely to keep its value well, quite likely to increase in value over time. Most cars depreciate like there is no tomorrow and if you have a car on PCP, you're only renting it, you don't own it, it can not even be called an asset.

liamog

unkel wrote: »

In general that's a good rule of thumb, but in practice, if you default on your car's payment, your car will be repossessed in no time. Default on your mortgage and nothing like that is going to happen. Also a house is essential and it is an asset, that's likely to keep its value well, quite likely to increase in value over time. Most cars depreciate like there is no tomorrow and if you have a car on PCP, you're only renting it, you don't own it, it can not even be called an asset.

If fear of repossession was a motivator, I'd be even less likely to recommend a 30% deposit, in that case it's better to keep the money as a rainy day fund. With the low interests rate on offer I think it's worth the extra cost to maintain a cash fund.

unkel

The cash fund for a rainy day would be a lot bigger if one paid for one's cars outright, rather than waste money on financing charges :pac:

September1

Kramer wrote: »

I understand there were great deals years ago on PCP, especially relating to 24kWh Leafs, but I very much doubt multi-billion €uro finance companies, with whole departments of actuaries & economists, are exposing themselves to much risk.

PCP is obviously hugely profitable for them & manufacturers - most UK main dealers now make next to nothing from cash sales, the profit is in the loans/finance/PCP.

Well, in tracker mortgages in Ireland were a case of "multi-billion €uro finance companies" exposing themselves to too much risk. Of course PCP are not like that, and let me say it again, it is very unlikely that you would end up in such situation. All examples I gave you were extreme outliers of car market.

I think I also read somewhere that in the end dealers are on the hook in case car is returned at the end of PCP, so maybe risk is not even with financial institutions.

[Deleted User]

MJohnston wrote: »

Haven’t been able to try them out yet but iOS 14 has a couple of new features for EV users:

- Apple Maps now contains EV routing, range calculation and stuff. Actually don’t think this is available in Ireland yet ugh
- CarPlay now supports EV apps, although presumably no apps will have time to update yet.

Apple maps contains EV routing, = no. I'm surprised though because we've so few chargers it would be easy map out lol.

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

The cash fund for a rainy day would be a lot bigger if one paid for one's cars outright, rather than waste money on financing charges :pac:

How would cash reserves be bigger if you spend it on a car ? yes, it's good to have cash rather than tie it up in a car and pay per month, yes you pay interest, need to have a balance, not everyone can have the cash to buy a car and keep more cash in the bank.

The best way to keep cash is of course not to buy any car or buy a cheap old car.

garo

Deleted User wrote: »

The best way to keep cash is of course not to buy any car or buy a cheap old car.

I have a cheap old 2003 Renault Megane if someone wants to buy

In 8 years it will be eligible for classic insurance

liamog

More signs the CircleK "get it" when thinking about charging infrastructure and how it can impact their bottom line

The Laval, Quebec-based convenience store giant will add charging stations at locations on the west coast of the U.S. and Canada and in its home province, Chief Executive Officer Brian Hannasch said in an interview Wednesday. Longer term, the company wants to expand into at-home vehicle charging in North America, as it’s doing in Norway.

“We’ll have chargers deploying in the next 12 months in Canada and in the U.S.,” said Hannasch, whose company has outlets in 48 of the 50 states. “Our goal will be to follow the path we’re on in Norway.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-16/circle-k-owner-plans-electric-car-charging-push-in-u-s-canada

Genghis

First morning to use the remote heating function today. Whilst loving the feature, I hate giving way to the oncoming Winter.

the_amazing_raisin

Genghis wrote: »

First morning to use the remote heating function today. Whilst loving the feature, I hate giving way to the oncoming Winter.

Likewise, although it's scorching outside at the moment. It's a proper Irish autumn now, weather is mental and the weathermen are having nervous breakdowns

JohnC.

Plugsurfing has been updated to work with CarPlay. You can start a charge from your car’s screen. Still have to get out to plug it in though.

It’ll be interesting if ABRP gets updated. They appear to have wanted to in the past and with iOS 14 they should be able to, I think.

AndyBoBandy

I've often wondered how/why Nissan never expanded their EV offerings (in this market anyway) after the success of the Leaf?

You'd have thought, given the success of their Qashqai crossover, it would have been ripe for conversion to full EV? Stick a 62kWh battery in it, and compete with the Kona on more fronts.. I can't imagine it would require too many mods to put a battery under the floor? Hyundai were able to do it with the Kona (BEV/Hybrid/ICE variants), so why didn't Nissan do similar*

*I assume being a rather large car maker, they crunched the numbers and somehow decided it wasn't worth it.