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How do you convince people god exists?

ILoveYourVibes

How do you in history?

And how do you do it now?

With all the evidence etc.

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auspicious

Create a zeitgeist by inculcating a fear of established-positive-moral ineptitude that results in never ending pain for eternity.

auspicious

It's not original but it has been proven to work. I can't see why it couldn't work in the future.
...

bobbyy gee

in the old days the priests and nuns would beat it into you
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qj6XAvuRn4Q

realdanbreen

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

How do you in history?

And how do you do it now?

With all the evidence etc.

Surely it is up to God to convince us that he/she exists?
If there is a God why would he/she be playing so hard to get.

8kczg9v0swrydm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Surely it is up to God to convince us that he/she exists?
If there is a God why would he/she be playing so hard to get.

You could say that God is somewhat hidden, but in fact He has left plenty of signs of His presence. An example is the beautiful ordering of nature around us - things just seem to fit well, retain proportions and inspire man with a sense of awe at their sheer beauty.

Moreover, the existence of God is discoverable through reason alone (without recourse to the Bible). This has been shown by many of the finest minds throughout the centuries, most notably Aristotle, Aquinas and Anselm of Canterbury.

At the same time, faith in God is a gift from God. It is given to those who are genuinely open to it. This means that their intellects are directed at discovering the truth - ie. their mind's directing question is 'what is the truth of this or that situation, even if it is something detrimental to myself?'.

We need to be lovers of truth.

Mark Hamill

Ty Straight Villa wrote: »

You could say that God is somewhat hidden, but in fact He has left plenty of signs of His presence. An example is the beautiful ordering of nature around us - things just seem to fit well, retain proportions and inspire man with a sense of awe at their sheer beauty.

Except for the ludicrously vast amount of the universe that is empty space, you mean. It's like people who talk about the wondrous order of nature aren't aware how much of the universe is completely empty and viciously lethal to anything alive.

Ty Straight Villa wrote: »

Moreover, the existence of God is discoverable through reason alone (without recourse to the Bible). This has been shown by many of the finest minds throughout the centuries, most notably Aristotle, Aquinas and Anselm of Canterbury.

We have done this before, haven't we? Discussed the supposed "reason" that can justify the existence of god. I am still waiting for this "reason", if you want to continue from our last post.

Ty Straight Villa wrote: »

At the same time, faith in God is a gift from God. It is given to those who are genuinely open to it. This means that their intellects are directed at discovering the truth - ie. their mind's directing question is 'what is the truth of this or that situation, even if it is something detrimental to myself?'.

We need to be lovers of truth.

Ah, so if no-one else recognises the "reason" in your argument, it's because god hasn't cheated for them and made them believe, it's not because your "reason" is leakier than a sieve. Convenient that, isn't it? It's also something that a lot of people who believe in completely contradictory gods will say, that their god has given them faith. How do I, as an outsider, tell which of you actually has any "reason" without any gift of faith?

Humberto Salazar

Being conscious of your own self. How can you be you? Surely there was a purpose that brought 'you' into being? Why not someone else? Why the very time we're in now? Randomness is a cop out answer. There is a dimension behind this. All answers must wait till we leave this one though.

realdanbreen

Ty Straight Villa wrote: »

You could say that God is somewhat hidden, but in fact He has left plenty of signs of His presence. An example is the beautiful ordering of nature around us - things just seem to fit well, retain proportions and inspire man with a sense of awe at their sheer beauty.

Moreover, the existence of God is discoverable through reason alone (without recourse to the Bible). This has been shown by many of the finest minds throughout the centuries, most notably Aristotle, Aquinas and Anselm of Canterbury.

At the same time, faith in God is a gift from God. It is given to those who are genuinely open to it. This means that their intellects are directed at discovering the truth - ie. their mind's directing question is 'what is the truth of this or that situation, even if it is something detrimental to myself?'.

We need to be lovers of truth.

What about the billions of humans who lived and died before Jesus came along to tell us about God? What became of them?

Peregrinus

realdanbreen wrote: »

What about the billions of humans who lived and died before Jesus came along to tell us about God? What became of them?

DCE has already answered this one:

Ty Straight Villa wrote: »

. . . the existence of God is discoverable through reason alone . . .

Hotblack Desiato

Ty Straight Villa wrote: »

We need to be lovers of truth.

That's the reason I'm an atheist.

Hotblack Desiato

Humberto Salazar wrote: »

Surely there was a purpose that brought 'you' into being? Why not someone else?

If any other one of the millions of sperm had made it to the egg, you wouldn't have been born, someone else might have. You might not want to face the fact, but it is a fact that we are all here by chance.

If your mother had met someone else... if she'd rolled over and gone to sleep that night... if you were one of the 25-30% of pregnancies that naturally miscarry early... etc

But you're looking at it from the wrong end of the telescope to be frank. Assuming your existence had an inevitability and has an inherent purpose.

nozzferrahhtoo

Ty Straight Villa wrote: »

An example is the beautiful ordering of nature around us - things just seem to fit well, retain proportions and inspire man with a sense of awe at their sheer beauty.

That is circular. The evidence that a god created things the way they are, is the things the way they are? You are using the question itself as evidence for itself.

Ty Straight Villa wrote: »

Moreover, the existence of God is discoverable through reason alone

Adumbrate that reasoning for me/us then. I genuinely hope it is more coherent and less fallacious than the circular reasoning above.

[Deleted User]

amazingly, "how can there *not* be a god?" ~waves hands~ doesn't convince anyone who doesn't necessarily equate complexity with divine intent

the idea that even accepting a steering force on the complexity we cannot explain (and there will always be the "why" question, even as a staunch atheist i will allow that the human condition probably insists upon it) means that the catholic/christian god is therefore implied is......look ive to be honest lads its lego-level stuff

whats that you say? brilliant people who have been brought up from infancy into a society that rewards demonstrable expressions of compliance with the dominant cultural and political order of that time have written in support of that existing order?

well colour me shocked.

appeal to authority, claims that unsolved questions prove any god (much less *your god* in particular) add nothing to a debate but imo they do underline how shallow a person's interest in examining where their own beliefs come from- it's real "that'll do" level answers.

Hotblack Desiato

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

That is circular. The evidence that a god created things the way they are, is the things the way they are? You are using the question itself as evidence for itself.

Douglas Adams memorably wrote about that - a sentient puddle would believe the hole in the ground must have been created for it, because it fits in it perfectly!

auspicious

As regards to the proofs offered for example by Aquinas, these are limited to our universe and its laws. I was going to add the puddle analogy but Hotblack Desiato just did.

NaFirinne

Just pondering this idea.... If God created the Universe and the world - then really the Universe is kind of like a virtual world that we human might be able to create in games.

So Looking at the Creation account -

Creation Day 1 (Genesis 1:1-5)
God created the heavens and the earth. “The heavens” refers to everything beyond the earth, outer space. The earth is made but not formed in any specific way, although water is present. God then speaks light into existence. He then separates the light from the dark and names the light “day” and the dark “night.” This creative work occurs from evening until morning – one day.

So God Coded and developed the Universe and the building blocks of planets - ie Earth. So he initializes the game engine.

2. He writes the code for light and integrates it into his new game engine.

3. Then rather then having light every where he codes it into Light sources so we can have both dark and light.

So he managed to code all that in one day. Not bad really.

Now I could go on with the rest of the account of creation, it really strike me that rather then looking at our surroundings from our point of view. If you look at the rest of the account of creation from a Game creator / Programmers point of view it's very close to how an actually game universe or virtual world would actually be developed.

Day 2 - God - Codes up the how the atmosphere works and adds in moisture and water.

Day 3 - God codes up the land, continents and seas - I wonder at this point is he using the unreal engine or the unity engine.

Day 4 - God codes up all the stars and heavenly bodies. And initializes the thread to allow them to run. He also creates the Moon and the sun in relations to the earth. - This can only make sense if this is actually game development here - I mean it is the sequence you would do it in.

Day 5 - God uses something better then Adobe to create all the life in water and insects

Day 6 - God then uses the same software to create all the land creatures. And finally creates Humans as the NPC's to his world.

Day 7 God Rests.

That account does not make sense in terms of science that we know. It can only really make sense to me in terms of developing a virtual world and the only example I have of that is a Computer Game world.

Does the creation account make sense if it was simply the sequence of coding up and developing a game world?

Then if we are the npc's inside that virtual world then looking from within that world we can only really know about how the world runs We would not be able to see past that world.

The world was initially created as a safe paradise in which we could live freely. And God roamed around from time to time to speak with us.

Then we went against god - the problem that God has here is that he has to leave our presence as when you go against God you go against creation and I guess there is some universal law that means if you go against creation and are in the presence of God in his true form you die.

Then he decided to Join the world in First Person Perspective but again we went against him and just had him killed.

I wonder how the game plays out in the end.

Hotblack Desiato

Is there a poke for infinite lives?

Hyzepher

Plode wrote: »

It is a volume of 60–70 books, by many authors, written over millennia, that repeats the same message consistently.

But it doesn't - it's full of contradictions

Hotblack Desiato

It's also been significantly massaged/edited over the years.

NaFirinne

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Is there a poke for infinite lives?

Want the God mode Cheat?

NaFirinne

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's also been significantly massaged/edited over the years.

Are you talking about the various translations?

You have to study the texts in the original Languages to get the proper meanings for sure. But this is quite normal in proper bible studies.

We also have the dead sea scrolls which give us a good indication that these have not been altered in thousands of years.

Also the original texts use the number 7 to prevent alterations from the original message and this spans throughout the books of the bible.

So while the bible may have been penned by multiple people, they did so through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

NaFirinne

Hyzepher wrote: »

But it doesn't - it's full of contradictions

It may have apparent contradictions, however usually when these are studied in more detail you gain great insights into their meanings any many of these apparent contradictions are gems of knowledge.

nozzferrahhtoo

NaFirinne wrote: »

So while the bible may have been penned by multiple people, they did so through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The use of the word "So" at the start here is interesting. It seems to imply that the unsubstantiated assertion about an unsubstantiated entity after the "So" somehow follows from the things said in the sentences before the "So".

Absolutely nothing you said before the "So" lends even a modicum of credence to the assertion after it however. So.... it might be nice if you adumbrate the reasoning linking the two for us.

Kaybaykwah

NaFirinne wrote: »

Just pondering this idea.... If God created the Universe and the world - then really the Universe is kind of like a virtual world that we human might be able to create in games.

I wonder how the game plays out in the end.

Answer; a puddle.

Hotblack Desiato

NaFirinne wrote: »

Are you talking about the various translations?

No doubt there are translation errors, but no not really, it's what books have been included and excluded.

So while the bible may have been penned by multiple people, they did so through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Ah jaysus, you're being serious?

NaFirinne

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No doubt there are translation errors, but no not really, it's what books have been included and excluded.

Ah jaysus, you're being serious?

How else would you explain the mathematical consistency of the books?

nozzferrahhtoo

Ah the old "If you can not offer an explanation then my explanation is credible" trick. We get that one on occasion here when theists wander in. Usually of the form "If you do not think there is a god then how do you explain existence???".

You can either substantiation your claims.... or you can not. People not having a claim of their own does not lend credence to yours. Rather, such deflections are as transparent as a recently well cleaned window.

antiskeptic

NaFirinne wrote: »

It may have apparent contradictions, however usually when these are studied in more detail you gain great insights into their meanings any many of these apparent contradictions are gems of knowledge.

But isn't the case, in your belief system (and mine btw) that you have to be able to 'see' before you can discern such things. 'Blind' people, not being able to see, means not even study would allow them to discern.

Heck, even a believer is going to have trouble wading through Numbers. And it's not as if different believers don't arrive at completely different 'gems of knowledge'.

Not a big problem in my book, God is more interested in our showing our work than producing the right answer - but you can appreciate the athiests objection.

Well founded in the main. They would discard IKEA instructions if perceived to be as problematic - never mind a book purporting to be the book of life.

Hotblack Desiato

NaFirinne wrote: »

How else would you explain the mathematical consistency of the books?

Do you mean the four gospels which contradict each other?

NaFirinne

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Do you mean the four gospels which contradict each other?

No that's not what I'm talking about at all.

How did the writers of the bible maintain the mathematical consistency throughout the old testament and new testament in terms of the number 7?

If your unfamiliar with what I'm talking about, this is a good start into studying it....but only a start

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hOKA9fR2p4

The bible is a book that deserves proper study if your going to be talking about it.

Now if you want to discuss contradictions in the four gospels...well these are suppose to be eye witness accounts of the Life of Jesus....so being eye witness accounts you would expect to see some inconsistencies....however none of these would take away the truth of the gospel. More over they actually prove that these are actual eye witness accounts of the Life of Jesus.