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Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

Soarer

Thought I'd start a new thread seeing as I too lazy couldn't find another one.

The ol' fella has the Outlander PHEV, and is looking to get a home chargepoint for it. She's 16A Type 1, but I'm suggesting he goes for a 32A Untethered Type 2 Charger to futureproof himself.
He's gonna go through the €600 SEAI grant, sooooo......
Where would/could/should he buy?
Can he buy or does it have to go through the electrician?
Can he buy from the UK and claim the grant?
Can he/sparky buy secondhand, and just put in a total price of X "for supply and install" to claim the grant?
Have Irish suppliers bumped up their prices because if the grant?

Basically he's bugging the shizzle out of me about it, and I haven't a clue. It was a lot simpler without the grant! :P

Mod Note:
I'm going to apply a small part of the Electrical Forum charter to this thread.
This thread is intended as a consumer level thread to discuss the requirements, installation and operation of home charge points.
Posts containing info that a poster has done electrical work and that they are not a REC (Registered Electrical Contractor) will be allowed, but posts advocating work to be done without engaging a REC will removed or snipped. Use the report function if you believe a post is advocating works that are not allowed.

Although it is illegal for anyone other than a REC to carry out restricted electrical works the act of learning how this work is carried out, learning the various regulations relating to this work and acquiring technical knowledge is permitted. Answering electrical questions should not misinterpreted as encouraging people from taking this work on themselves.
What we want to avoid is answers to posts that simply advise the posters to employ the services of a REC without offering any other advice, assistance or making any explanation. This is most unhelpful, discourages discussion and can lead to promoting commercial organizations / companies (which is not permitted). Explaining an issue and making someone aware of potential risks In addition to advising that an REC is engaged is far more helpful.

Repeatedly stating that a REC is required in response to a particular conversation without any further substantial info will result in cards.

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Comments

Gforcemurphy

Quick question:

I am conscious that I needed to have the grant approval before getting work done. However, I didn’t appreciate that this rule necessarily extended to the purchase of a charge point. Looking at my letter of offer I see that this seems to be the case, they consider any purchase prior to the start date to be ineligible. My online Zappi purchase predates my start date by two days. Am I in the sheeeeat?

JBinWaterford

Gforcemurphy wrote: »

Quick question:

I am conscious that I needed to have the grant approval before getting work done. However, I didn’t appreciate that this rule necessarily extended to the purchase of a charge point. Looking at my letter of offer I see that this seems to be the case, they consider any purchase prior to the start date to be ineligible. My online Zappi purchase predates my start date by two days. Am I in the sheeeeat?

I'm no lawyer/SME, but I purchased a Zappi knowing we 100% hit grant criteria, and had own (accredited) sparks fit it. Tho I didn't arrange installation until I had grant offer.

Kramer

Gforcemurphy wrote: »

My online Zappi purchase predates my start date by two days. Am I in the sheeeeat?

You'll be fine. They don't need any invoice/receipt/proof of purchase, just the electrician's certs & form you fill in with the total amount you paid (€600+).

Risteard81

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Can I have the isolator inside behind where the charger is going?

It must be within 2m of the EVSE. So realistically a rotary isolator outside.

TitianGerm

May not be the correct place to post so move if necessary mod.

I'm planning on getting my charger installed on the side wall of my house beside the main ESB meter. The Fuse Box is in the utility room at the far side of the house.

Does the installer need to run the cabling from the fuse box or can they hook in from the meter?

I also have outdoor lights that are about 5 meters from the meter. Can the installer extend the cable from here either?

I can add a photo later to explain better.

McHonda

TitianGerm wrote: »

May not be the correct place to post so move if necessary mod.

I'm planning on getting my charger installed on the side wall of my house beside the main ESB meter. The Fuse Box is in the utility room at the far side of the house.

Does the installer need to run the cabling from the fuse box or can they hook in from the meter?

I also have outdoor lights that are about 5 meters from the meter. Can the installer extend the cable from here either?

I can add a photo later to explain better.

I had the same issue as you and I was consistently told no, you can not hook in from the meter. Others here seem to have gotten around that. Assuming you want the full 7.2kw you will need a 32a cable with it's own breaker on fuseboard to charger. It was minus craic coming up with a route with my electrician but we got there in the end.

yop

McHonda wrote: »

I had the same issue as you and I was consistently told no, you can not hook in from the meter. Others here seem to have gotten around that. Assuming you want the full 7.2kw you will need a 32a cable with it's own breaker on fuseboard to charger. It was minus craic coming up with a route with my electrician but we got there in the end.

What breaker did they put in for you?

TitianGerm

McHonda wrote: »

I had the same issue as you and I was consistently told no, you can not hook in from the meter. Others here seem to have gotten around that. Assuming you want the full 7.2kw you will need a 32a cable with it's own breaker on fuseboard to charger. It was minus craic coming up with a route with my electrician but we got there in the end.

Ah feck.

I'll have to see what they say so. Herself will go mad if they need to drill holes everywhere :pac:

Cyrus

TitianGerm wrote: »

Ah feck.

I'll have to see what they say so. Herself will go mad if they need to drill holes everywhere :pac:

if you want the grant itll have to come from the main board.

if you dont im sure you can find someone to do it the way you want.

Risteard81

It cannot and must not come from the meter cubicle. This is expressly prohibited and is also a breach of ESB requirements as well as the National Wiring Rules.

TitianGerm

Cyrus wrote: »

if you want the grant itll have to come from the main board.

if you dont im sure you can find someone to do it the way you want.

I've a cousin who's an electrician so I'll have him take a look.

The installer could run the cable up from the fuse board and into the floorboards for the first floor but that would mean lifting carpets to bring the cable across the house.

How thick is the wire actually? They could go straight up to the attic and back out beside the black plastic pipe for the ensuite toilet.

KCross

TitianGerm wrote: »

I'm planning on getting my charger installed on the side wall of my house beside the main ESB meter. The Fuse Box is in the utility room at the far side of the house.

Does the installer need to run the cabling from the fuse box or can they hook in from the meter?

Technically you cannot run a second cable off (or inside) the meter box.

What you can do is add a second consumer unit next to the meter box and switch the feed from the meter into that new consumer unit and then feed the rest of the house from that new consumer unit and also feed the charge point off that new consumer unit... does that make sense? That is a legit way to do it and wont require any wiring around the house but it will mean a new box on your outside wall.

TitianGerm wrote: »

I also have outdoor lights that are about 5 meters from the meter. Can the installer extend the cable from here either?

No, very unlikely a bunch of lights have a cable thick enough to take a 32A charge point. The charge point needs a dedicated cable and RCBO of its own particularly if you want the draw the grant for it.

Ultimately, get your registered electrician to advise and ensure they understand the grant requirements.

TitianGerm

KCross wrote: »

Technically you cannot run a second cable off (or inside) the meter box.

What you can do is add a second consumer unit next to the meter box and switch the feed from the meter into that new consumer unit and then feed the rest of the house from that new consumer unit and also feed the charge point off that new consumer unit... does that make sense? That is a legit way to do it and wont require any wiring around the house but it will mean a new box on your outside wall

Ultimately, get your registered electrician to advise and ensure they understand the grant requirements.

So I could add another Meter in the wall box and hook the house to that?

On a side note - if anyone can recommend an electrician from Wexford who has experience installing chargers then that would be great.

KCross

TitianGerm wrote: »

So I could add another Meter in the wall box and hook the house to that?

No, it will be a new box next to the meter box. You are not supposed to put anything into the meter box.

The meter box feeds the new box (instead of the consumer unit in your house) and then the new box feeds the house. The new box can then also feed the charge point as it will be right there next to the charge point.

The existing cable that runs from your meter box to the consumer unit in the house can be reused so it shouldnt require a new cable to be run through the house.

TitianGerm

KCross wrote: »

No, it will be a new box next to the meter box. You are not supposed to put anything into the meter box.

The meter box feeds the new box (instead of the consumer unit in your house) and then the new box feeds the house. The new box can then also feed the charge point as it will be right there next to the charge point.

The existing cable that runs from your meter box to the consumer unit in the house can be reused so it shouldnt require a new cable to be run through the house.

Ok so I think I have it now.

1. Disconect the cable from the meter into the house.
2. Install a new unit (fuse board?) In the wall box beside the meter.
3. Wire the new unit to the original cable running into the house.
4. Wire the new unit to the meter.
5. New cable and fuse from the new unit to power the wall charger.
6. Install home charger.

Is that right?

sekond

Installer arrived today to intall the chargepoint (the Opel/Energia deal), only to say that there was considerable upgrade work that needs to be done. We've been waiting since the end of July for this, which is very frustrating. So another thousand euro worth of work that needs to be put into the house before it can be installed.

So just a heads up to anyone going with this deal that they don't survey the house in advance, they do it when they turn up to do the install.

KCross

TitianGerm wrote: »

Ok so I think I have it now.

1. Disconect the cable from the meter into the house.
2. Install a new unit (fuse board?) In the wall box beside the meter.
3. Wire the new unit to the original cable running into the house.
4. Wire the new unit to the meter.
5. New cable and fuse from the new unit to power the wall charger.
6. Install home charger.

Is that right?

Yup, that’s it.

Mickeroo

sekond wrote: »

Installer arrived today to intall the chargepoint (the Opel/Energia deal), only to say that there was considerable upgrade work that needs to be done. We've been waiting since the end of July for this, which is very frustrating. So another thousand euro worth of work that needs to be put into the house before it can be installed.

So just a heads up to anyone going with this deal that they don't survey the house in advance, they do it when they turn up to do the install.

What kind of upgrades do you need? Is it a very old house?

TitianGerm

KCross wrote: »

Yup, that’s it.

Great thanks a million for that.

That really does seem like the best option for my house.

TitianGerm

TitianGerm wrote: »

Great thanks a million for that.

That really does seem like the best option for my house.

And just a photo of where I plan to install the charger.

Hopefully just beside the connection box for the phone line.

sekond

Mickeroo wrote: »

What kind of upgrades do you need? Is it a very old house?

House is late 70s, fusebox that was done in the last 10 years or so (before we moved in).

Looking at the quote I was given it seems it needs
- mains upgrade to 16sq-something
- new earth for that cable
- a cable into the hot press? and connecting to the boiler
- new earth rod and cable to that.

We've no problem getting it done if it's needed, it's just very frustrating that we could have been getting it done while waiting for the charger, but they didn't survey until today when he was due to install. (And I'm not sure there are any questions they could have asked me in advance that would have meant they would have known in advance)

KCross

sekond wrote: »

House is late 70s, fusebox that was done in the last 10 years or so (before we moved in).

Looking at the quote I was given it seems it needs
- mains upgrade to 16sq-something
- new earth for that cable
- a cable into the hot press? and connecting to the boiler
- new earth rod and cable to that.

We've no problem getting it done if it's needed, it's just very frustrating that we could have been getting it done while waiting for the charger, but they didn't survey until today when he was due to install. (And I'm not sure there are any questions they could have asked me in advance that would have meant they would have known in advance)

Thats going to be an issue for alot of people installing EV charge points in "old" houses. The wiring has to be brought up to current standards for earthing.

Having said that.... if he is putting in a 16mm² mains cable (aka "tails") I'd pay a few extra quid and get it upgraded to 25mm². Its just one cable and the cost difference shouldnt be much and it will allow you at some point in the future to increase the max amps you are allowed pull into the house from 60 to 80. You will have to pay extra for that at the time but at least you wont have to pay for that cable upgrade a second time.

Its worth asking the question anyway... i.e. get a quote for 25mm² instead of 16mm² and see what the difference is.

sekond

KCross wrote: »

Thats going to be an issue for alot of people installing EV charge points in "old" houses. The wiring has to be brought up to current standards for earthing.

Having said that.... if he is putting in a 16mm² mains cable (aka "tails") I'd pay a few extra quid and get it upgraded to 25mm². Its just one cable and the cost difference shouldnt be much and it will allow you at some point in the future to increase the max amps you are allowed pull into the house from 60 to 80. You will have to pay extra for that at the time but at least you wont have to pay for that cable upgrade a second time.

Its worth asking the question anyway... i.e. get a quote for 25mm² instead of 16mm² and see what the difference is.

That's really useful, thanks. What are the kind of reasons I might want to increase that max amps - are we talking charging an additional car etc?

meercat

KCross wrote: »

No, it will be a new box next to the meter box. You are not supposed to put anything into the meter box.

The meter box feeds the new box (instead of the consumer unit in your house) and then the new box feeds the house. The new box can then also feed the charge point as it will be right there next to the charge point.

The existing cable that runs from your meter box to the consumer unit in the house can be reused so it shouldnt require a new cable to be run through the house.

That’s not 100% correct
The main earth connections need to be terminated at the main board. (Rod,gas and supplementary bonding)
The way you are proposing leaves the main earthing Now connected to the sub Board. This is totally against regulations

KCross

meercat wrote: »

That’s not 100% correct
The main earth connections need to be terminated at the main board. (Rod,gas and supplementary bonding)
The way you are proposing leaves the main earthing Now connected to the sub Board. This is totally against regulations

The new board becomes the main board and the existing one becomes a sub board. What extra would be required to align with regs?

Give the new board its own earth rod?
Or would a new cable need to be run between the boards?... which would defeat the purpose of it in this case.

KCross

sekond wrote: »

That's really useful, thanks. What are the kind of reasons I might want to increase that max amps - are we talking charging an additional car etc?

Yea, things like... Two EV's, Upgrade of heating to a heat pump, electric showers etc

Your current supply is probably 60A. An EV will be using 32A of that for several hours. Bumping the supply up to 80A gives you more wriggle room but not absolutely necessary, but if he is pulling a new cable anyway why not have it future proofed.... if its not much different in price.

meercat

KCross wrote: »

The new board becomes the main board and the existing one becomes a sub board. What extra would be required to align with regs?

Give the new board its own earth rod?
Or would a new cable need to be run between the boards?... which would defeat the purpose of it in this case.

The new board would need its own earth rod.
It would also need a 10mm cable to the gas meter/boiler
It would also need a 10mm cable to the hot press to supplement bonding

To comply with regulations

KCross

meercat wrote: »

It would also need a 10mm cable to the gas meter/boiler
It would also need a 10mm cable to the hot press to supplement bonding

Those two are the kickers there then.

TitianGerm, you'll need to discuss with your electrician as to what needs to be done in your case and/or how hard it is to get those extra cables done to comply with regs.

I know some folks have gone down this sub board route before to avoid running extra cables through the house so YMMV.

TitianGerm

KCross wrote: »

Those two are the kickers there then.

TitianGerm, you'll need to discuss with your electrician as to what needs to be done in your case and/or how hard it is to get those extra cables done to comply with regs.

I know some folks have gone down this sub board route before to avoid running extra cables through the house so YMMV.

I don't have gas so that's not an issue.

VW told me they hope to have the car in November so there's no rush on the charger at the moment.

Krusty_Clown

sekond wrote: »

House is late 70s, fusebox that was done in the last 10 years or so (before we moved in).

Looking at the quote I was given it seems it needs
- mains upgrade to 16sq-something
- new earth for that cable
- a cable into the hot press? and connecting to the boiler
- new earth rod and cable to that.

Sounds exactly the same as the upgrade work I had to get done (but also had to get earthing done on the gas boiler). €550 plus vat. Then the ESB need to connect to the new tails (another €168) and another call-out to schedule, then you can get the charger fitted. Mine was just a couple of feet from the fuse box. I won't be sharing any photos in a hurry - not the prettiest job - but functional!