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Galway traffic

ben.schlomo

Seemed light this evening, seeing as there doesn't seem to be a thread on traffic here I said I'd start this due to the importance of the issue.

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gordongekko

LostDuck wrote: »

Ah ye'll get great mileage out of that, must be short of valid points to debate!

Tell that to the workers let down by the lack of protections when he couldn't even stay awake to keep informed of the debate. He's lucky to have protections in the dail that he can sleep on the job. If anyone outside the dail is caught asleep on the job they'll be fired

LostDuck

gordongekko wrote: »

Tell that to the workers let down by the lack of protections when he couldn't even stay awake to keep informed of the debate. He's lucky to have protections in the dail that he can sleep on the job. If anyone outside the dail is caught asleep on the job they'll be fired

You do know he voted against the weak living wage proposals to push for a stronger commitment on the timeframe to implement them?

But you probably just saw the headline, liked and shared.

Johnny_BravoIII

CowboyTed wrote: »

Johnny they are turning the Headford round about into a traffic light and Hospital people can get off and walk (sorry but I don't have a problem with that becoming a traffic light either...

I totally agree with you on using the bypass to find the space to fill with PT and cycling. That is the chance to let the city breath enough to do these things and in fairness the City Council did as the planners of the bypass for just that.

I am also adding that we have the chance to also start putting a large business park in Knocknacarra/Barna...

We're almost finding common ground here.
If the bypass was deemed as necessary as part of an overall progressive approach to the spatial and transport planning of galway city over the next 50 years, then so be it. The experience of Ireland has been to build roads, disperse the population into further commuter homes (on cheap agricultural land), allow capacity to build over 20 years, build another road. This is bad news for society.

Hence your low population density and all the issues that come with it. Traffic, broadband, waste, school runs etc.

At some point we need to stop and ask what we are doing here.

How many town-planners, urban designers are working at a senior level in Galway City Coucil?

cooperguy

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

Galway is dangerous for non experienced cyclists.
There is no cycling infrastructure in the city.
This is why there are low participation rates.
You understand this fact, right?

Galway regionally has low population density due to 40 years of bad planning, 1-off housing etc. How do we begin to tackle this issue?

We better get the ring road built then so the rest of the transport strategy can be implemented.

CowboyTed

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

We're almost finding common ground here.
If the bypass was deemed as necessary as part of an overall progressive approach to the spatial and transport planning of galway city over the next 50 years, then so be it. The experience of Ireland has been to build roads, disperse the population into further commuter homes (on cheap agricultural land), allow capacity to build over 20 years, build another road. This is bad news for society.

Hence your low population density and all the issues that come with it. Traffic, broadband, waste, school runs etc.

At some point we need to stop and ask what we are doing here.

How many town-planners, urban designers are working at a senior level in Galway City Coucil?

I agree with you on a lot here...

I believe the outer road is needed to implement measures inside for walking, cycling(or other single/double transport vehicles) and Public Transport.

We should also trying to push employment over to the westside of the city and thus less need to travel.

We could also look at having control measure on the outer road to keep it moving and not have it as a car park (i.e traffic lights on the slip roads on to the road).

This involves proper town planning...

Reasonable discussions with thought out answers...

[Deleted User]

CowboyTed wrote: »

I believe the outer road is needed to implement measures inside for walking, cycling(or other single/double transport vehicles) and Public Transport.

Best case, that road opens in the 2030's sometime

What do we do until then? Sit on our collective hands or start making changes now.

Thankfully, the council, the govt, the NTA, BE, schools, businesses etc are all of the opinion that we proceed with changes now

gordongekko

LostDuck wrote: »

You do know he voted against the weak living wage proposals to push for a stronger commitment on the timeframe to implement them?

But you probably just saw the headline, liked and shared.

Hahaha hilarious.. Where are these stronger commitments. It's not like he's in government and able to bring forward proposals....oh wait.

LostDuck

gordongekko wrote: »

Hahaha hilarious.. Where are these stronger commitments. It's not like he's in government and able to bring forward proposals....oh wait.

They're here;
https://twitter.com/Pidge/status/1284103521797898241?s=19

They amended the motion to commit to change within the lifetime of the government rather than a vague "establish a task force" approach in the original SD motion.

If there any remaining issues you have with their transport/urban-planning/traffic related policies it'd probably be more relevant to this thread.

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

Best case, that road opens in the 2030's sometime

What do we do until then? Sit on our collective hands or start making changes now.
Thankfully, the council, the govt, the NTA, BE, schools, businesses etc are all of the opinion that we proceed with changes now

Unfortunatly the Council have been sitting on there hands for last number of years since the Galway Transportation Study was released in 2016 though, NTA had been doing most of the work on the public transport side.
I suspect Council have started to change there tune now though for obvious financial reasons, still they operate at a snails pace. They have done nothing of note for reallocation of space during 1st Covid wave apart from Cross St in City Centre, installation of Bus Turn lane at Courthouse that is not monitored/controlled; other Councils used it as an opportunity to spped up implemenations.
You are right though - it is at a min a decade away. Still waiting on the ABP hearing to start up again.

LostDuck

Every time I hear talk of the long running ring road plan I'm reminded of this... (from ~1min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN0_yBDqjOA

[Deleted User]

what_traffic wrote: »

Unfortunatly the Council have been sitting on there hands for last number of years since the Galway Transportation Study was released in 2016 though, NTA had been doing most of the work on the public transport side.
I suspect Council have started to change there tune now though for obvious financial reasons, still they operate at a snails pace. They have done nothing of note for reallocation of space during 1st Covid wave apart from Cross St in City Centre, installation of Bus Turn lane at Courthouse that is not monitored/controlled; other Councils used it as an opportunity to spped up implemenations.
You are right though - it is at a min a decade away. Still waiting on the ABP hearing to start up again.

They really have been shown up in relation to covid measures

CowboyTed

Deleted User wrote: »

Best case, that road opens in the 2030's sometime

What do we do until then? Sit on our collective hands or start making changes now.

Thankfully, the council, the govt, the NTA, BE, schools, businesses etc are all of the opinion that we proceed with changes now

It didn't work in 2008 and what has changed now...

I ask before what are the target cycling and Public transport figures... @008 iut was 20% and that was an utter failure...

Why are they doubling down on failure...

But it looks like we are busy...

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

They really have been shown up in relation to covid measures

Sure have. Actually have made things worse. Thread on twitter yesterday
https://twitter.com/lycraolaoghaire/status/1303618404520132608

what_traffic

CowboyTed wrote: »

Why are they doubling down on failure...

But it looks like we are busy...

Are you talking about the Ring Road here? All I have seen them do so far is the Councils putting all the eggs into that one basket. The Ring Road Basket.
Maybe they will prove me wrong over the next 10 years/decade before the Ring Road ever gets permission and the money required for it to be built.

gordongekko

what_traffic wrote: »

Sure have. Actually have made things worse. Thread on twitter yesterday
https://twitter.com/lycraolaoghaire/status/1303618404520132608

What nonsense. Imagine having businesses in the centre of town actually getting deliveries during the allotted time and complaining about it.

Anyone who walks down a packed shop street can see it's dangerous to have people also cycling on it. As we can see with covid if you give an inch some people will take a mile. Just cycling on one of the other streets and leave that street to the people walking browsing and shopping

what_traffic

gordongekko wrote: »

What nonsense. Imagine having businesses in the centre of town actually getting deliveries during the allotted time and complaining about it.
Just cycling on one of the other streets and leave that street to the people walking browsing and shopping

I see you missed the point of the thread, not surprised at that.
Which side streets? Outline the route for a kid living in Bohermore who is going to St Pats school in the morning via bicycle at 08h30?

[Deleted User]

CowboyTed wrote: »

It didn't work in 2008 and what has changed now...

I ask before what are the target cycling and Public transport figures... @008 iut was 20% and that was an utter failure...

Why are they doubling down on failure...

But it looks like we are busy...

Apart from the work donw on the SQR, what cycling infrastructure has been implemented to provide protection for cyclists from motorised vehicles in that time to encourage the switch to cycling?

Its been seen the world over that once a network of protected cycle routes is provided, a huge switch to cycling occurs. Its not some great big mystery, cycling within a foot or two of cars, buses vans and trucks scares the bejebus out of most folks.

Take a look at the current network of cycling infrastructure around the city as presented by the city council, and I use the term infrastructure loosely as paint is not protecting anyone.

A network it ain't!

A few things regarding that image

They have left out the RAB's as there is no conceivable way to mark these as cycling friendly
They don't list bus lanes anymore as being part of the cycle network because of their inherent danger
It is not possible to go from Roscam, Doughiska, Murrough, Renmore, Mervue, Wellpark etc into the city without having to mix with motor vehicles for the whole journey. The same applies for many other areas

Now, lets say we all agree that paint on a road is not protection. Lets look at that map again to see what the "infrastructure" looks like if we remove the painted lanes

Finally, lets take a look at the now infamous cycling infrastructure in Doughiska which has (I wish I was joking) 18 junctions, 41 private drives and 12 bus stops interrupting this 1.4km stretch of "infrastructure".

The following excerpt from Appendix F - Cycle Network & Infrastructure Development of the GTS. I have attached it to this post for you to have a read of further to see for yourself.

I think this answers your question as to why the ridership figures are stubbornly low for Galway city.

CowboyTed

what_traffic wrote: »

Are you talking about the Ring Road here? All I have seen them do so far is the Councils putting all the eggs into that one basket. The Ring Road Basket.
Maybe they will prove me wrong over the next 10 years/decade before the Ring Road ever gets permission and the money required for it to be built.

I am talking about the 2008 Transport Plan that stated target participation rates
cycling and PT was to be 20% each...

Cycling at the time was 4.5% and today it is 5.5%

Public transport at the time was around 5% and today is around 8%...

These are utter failures... There was cycle lanes built like westside, the rent a bike scheme, park and ride,.......

So my attitude before I let this pretty incompetent Council do anything is to trial it first.

LostDuck

CowboyTed wrote: »

So my attitude before I let this pretty incompetent Council do anything is to trial it first.

They were working on the bypass in 2008 and long before. We've trialled that now for the last 12 years and NOBODY is driving that bypass route.

0% uptake. Utter failure. Time to scrap it.

[Deleted User]

CowboyTed wrote: »

I am talking about the 2008 Transport Plan that stated target participation rates cycling and PT was to be 20% each...

You keep coming up with these numbers, so I'm going to ask you to please provide evidence of where they are coming from. Not saying these figures are made up, but I've a copy of the Galway Transportation Unit Plan 2008-2012 and nowhere does it state those numbers.

I've attached it for reference.

Maybe you are referring to another document, if so, please share a link or attach it to a post so the figures you continuously state can be examined

Mrs OBumble

what_traffic wrote: »

I see you missed the point of the thread, not surprised at that.
Which side streets? Outline the route for a kid living in Bohermore who is going to St Pats school in the morning via bicycle at 08h30?

Ok, I'll bite.

But first some observations:

1) It's a 20 minute walk. No need for two or four wheeled vehicle for this journey.

2) Why should a kid from Bohermore travel past the Mercy to attend St Pats anyway.

3) Most kids form Bohermore that I've observed go to school in Mervue, which is roughly the same distance from their homes as St Pats. (Granted it's a small sample that I know about, if there are kids living in St Anthonys / Liam Mellows Terraces, I probably wouldn't see them heading down the hill past Tesco).

Now to think about the routes, some options are shown on the map below.

The first major observation is that if the kid is observing the one-way streets in Prospect Hill and Eyre Square, then there's a fairly steep downhill section in one direction or the other. I'd see this as the biggest disincentive to allowing a child to cycle to school: the detour at the bottom of the hill could be a little smaller if they use Williams / Shop / Mainguard Streets, but is not really the major issue.

Or if they ignore the one-way restrictions, there's a route (shown in yellow) which is only a very small diversion from Shop etc street.

My real conclusion from this is that it's one-way streets which are the problem for bicycle routing, not pedestrian-only areas.

what_traffic

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

My real conclusion from this is that it's one-way streets which are the problem for bicycle routing, not pedestrian-only areas.

Exactly + what has been missed by you and others here is that the previous possible route that was available for children and others this summer has been removed. It was perfectly possible for anybody to cycle down the pedestrian area during the delivery times that are used by HGV's and Vans.
Council have banned that this in the Covid summer of 2020.
Check out the NEW signs on William St .

what_traffic

CowboyTed wrote: »

I am talking about the 2008 Transport Plan that stated target participation rates
cycling and PT was to be 20% each...

Show us the money stats that City Council poured into cycling and PT to try and get to achieve these figures in the last 12 years?

I think we both agree that the Council are a shambles, but you are under the misguided impression that the Council actually were trying to actually implement the 2008 Transport Plan.

Mrs OBumble

what_traffic wrote: »

It was perfectly possible for anybody to cycle down the pedestrian area during the delivery times that are used by HGV's and Vans.
Council have banned that this in the Covid summer of 2020.
Check out the NEW signs on William St .

I didn't miss that at all. In fact I saw the signs being put up and may have even said thank you to the lads who are erecting them.

But really it's not the biggest challenge for the alleged children of Bohermore attending school in St Pats.

And it does help make the street safer for pedestrians.

LostDuck

Cyclists requesting priority over motorists (as per any modern urban transport plan) should also remember that pedestrians get priority over cyclists.

Leave Shop Street to the pedestrians and avoid or walk your bike.

what_traffic

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I didn't miss that at all. In fact I saw the signs being put up and may have even said thank you to the lads who are erecting them.

But really it's not the biggest challenge for the alleged children of Bohermore attending school in St Pats.

And it does help make the street safer for pedestrians.

You still are, it does not make the streets any safer - they are still sharing the street with HGV's and Vans during this time.

It just adds to the challenge, not as much fun though for them as cycling along the multi-lane dock road.
La la la la la. :rolleyes:

ratracer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I didn't miss that at all. In fact I saw the signs being put up and may have even said thank you to the lads who are erecting them.

But really it's not the biggest challenge for the alleged children of Bohermore attending school in St Pats.

And it does help make the street safer for pedestrians.

What? Dodging between trucks and vans during delivery times is safe for pedestrians, but the rampant school going kids ( even though we don’t have a lot of cyclists according to some on here?) are a source of serious injury?
Yeah, sound!

ratracer

LostDuck wrote: »

Cyclists requesting priority over motorists (as per any modern urban transport plan) should also remember that pedestrians get priority over cyclists.

Leave Shop Street to the pedestrians and avoid or walk your bike.

I fully agree with this during pedestrianised hours, and, similar to road traffic offences, it is the job of the Gardaí to police this.

During times that traffic is allowed on the street, then all traffic should be allowed on it at those times. There are many more private cars driving down that street every morning than there are cyclists.

LostDuck

ratracer wrote: »

There are many more private cars driving down that street every morning than there are cyclists.

Is regular traffic permitted to drive down Shop Street during those hours? Genuine question, I thought it was deliveries only...?

ratracer

LostDuck wrote: »

Is regular traffic permitted to drive down Shop Street during those hours? Genuine question, I thought it was deliveries only...?

It’s only supposed to be deliveries, but again, in all the years shop st has been pedestrianised, I’ve never heard of, or seen, anyone ever being pulled up for it.