Sand wrote: » People aren't afraid of change. They're afraid of negative outcomes for their children, wider family and people. Anyone looking at whats happening in western Europe and is beginning to emerge in Ireland ought to be worried.
onlinenerd wrote: » Seem like the migrants you see and I see are totally different, I see hardworking nurses and IT professionals filling in a gap that exist in the Irish market.
If these countries have sub standard education and training, why do we even hire them? Yes maybe they lack English because they speak a different language but most of these jobs have enough English that is comprehendable.
Asylum seekers and lowly paid Eastern European workers is probably what you are referring to but I have seen some true hardworkers amongst the Eastern Europeans here even at their "menial" jobs.
onlinenerd wrote: » I am not questioning what the Irish or up or not up for but since Ireland provides benefits and perks here that cannot be obtained there, most chose to work here and I would say anyday Irish beat any of the candidates at the job in Asia but most wouldnt take it uo due to the cultural differences, low wages etc. I know if I was jobless and had an option to work in Asia for lower wages I would claim the dole instead.
Sand wrote: » Why? What is gained from going down that completely unnecessary path of hardship? It sounds more like a religious belief than anything thought out or considered.
onlinenerd wrote: » What is this social cohesion you rave about? Would you be afraid if your child had black friends or had Asian girlfriends? It seems from your comment you want to live in a whites only town and seemingly afraid when too many non-whites turn up around you. They have to integrate and we have to integrate with them as well in a multicultural society with less of your attitude.
onlinenerd wrote: » Thankfully I can differentiate between the two and while I agree we cant stop language students from coming here to learn English we could tighten up a bit on the asylum claims but then again I am not in these people shoes claiming asylum and fleeing from wars so I probably would understand and relate less to their life experiences.
onlinenerd wrote: » I know if I was jobless and had an option to work in Asia for lower wages I would claim the dole instead.
Hamachi wrote: » Cultures evolve and change organically over time. There is nothing organic about the mass inward migration Ireland has experienced since the late 1990s. Can you not comprehend that a country transitioning from ~2% migrant background to >17% of the population within two decades, is almost unprecedented? Our nearest neighbor took almost 50 years to ‘achieve’ this state. The UK is not a society we should be seeking to emulate. Knife crime is out of control in London, accompanied by rampant white flight, with ~750,000 white Britons departing the capital throughout the last 15 years. I make no apology for not wishing that scenario upon my children. Perhaps when you have a family of your own, you’ll start to develop some understanding of the significance of social cohesion. There was nothing hypocritical about my decision to work in Germany. I was headhunted for role in the tech industry by my employer. Any German is equally free to move to Ireland under the reciprocal rights of movement. Surely you’ve heard of this rudimentary concept? Are you capable of distinguishing between high-skilled intra-EU migration and the waves of low skilled asylum seekers and language students who have washed up on our shores, who incidentally are not beneficiaries of the free movement of labor?
Hamachi wrote: » Do you know what headhunted means? I was approached by a German employer for the role because I have a niche tech skill set. They had already exhausted recruitment options domestically. So no, I’ve never questioned if a German felt embittered, because they had first dibs on the role, as is the natural order. To reiterate again, I paid 50% of my salary in taxes, never claimed welfare, and learned the language to near native level. You still haven’t answered my question. Are you capable of distinguishing between high skilled migration of this nature and the substantial influx of dubious asylum seekers and language students to Ireland? If you are able to make this differentiation, what kind of future migration should Ireland prioritize?
Hamachi wrote: » Your lack of knowledge is astounding. The only way you or any other foreign national will be permitted access to the labor markets of the UAE, India, or Thailand is if you have a critical skill they are unable to source domestically. They treat inward migration as something that should be of benefit to the host society i.e. precisely the same logic Ireland should be implementing. You know nothing about what other Irish people are ‘up for’. Given the almost universally high level of education here, Irish people are amongst those most capable of fulfilling this criteria. Thankfully, the overwhelming majority opt to stay right here in Ireland, becoming stakeholders in their own society. The point that you, willfully continue to miss, is that they should only be joined here by high-skilled migrants who have legitimate skills to offer this country and do not become a financial burden on this state. Can you comprehend any of this?
onlinenerd wrote: » I agree London and Sweden is not an ideal representation of migration and neither do I question your decision to work in Germany but have you ever thought that another German might have thought he deserved that job over you
jmreire wrote: » And the same applies here,,if you fit the bill for what's needed, and can support yourself, Welcome. But try turning up in the Middle East, India or Thailand ( as quite a lot are doing here) without qualifications and uninvited, and see what will happen to you...you think that you will be welcomed with open arms and have access to their social welfare system ( if indeed they have a social welfare system as we would know it ) ???? I don't think so...... BTW, I worked in the Middle East for a nr of years, but never saw a welfare system as we have here,,,and furthermore, they keep a very close eye on foreigners, unlike here.
onlinenerd wrote: » You are indeed free to access the labour market in Middle east or India or Thailand provided you're the suitable candidate but I don't think a lot of Irish would be up for it.
onlinenerd wrote: » Seem like the migrants you see and I see are totally different, I see hardworking nurses and IT professionals filling in a gap that exist in the Irish market. If these countries have sub standard education and training, why do we even hire them? Yes maybe they lack English because they speak a different language but most of these jobs have enough English that is comprehendable. Asylum seekers and lowly paid Eastern European workers is probably what you are referring to but I have seen some true hardworkers amongst the Eastern Europeans here even at their "menial" jobs.
onlinenerd wrote: » Also the hypocrisy is laughable at the fact that you were an immigrant in another EU country and reaped the benefits of the job but suddenly selfish when some foreigner is taking advantage of the same benefits in Ireland. Move along with the times.
onlinenerd wrote: » I don't see why people are so afraid of change.Cultures evolve and change over the years and so there's no point crying over the fact that my child is going to live in a different society than I did. Also the hypocrisy is laughable at the fact that you were an immigrant in another EU country and reaped the benefits of the job but suddenly selfish when some foreigner is taking advantage of the same benefits in Ireland. Move along with the times.
onlinenerd wrote: » I don't see why people are so afraid of change.
Yurt! wrote: » I think the fundamental difference here is that the rights of movement are reciprocal between member states. I have the same right to access the labour market and to settle in Rome or Turin as an Italian does in Cork or Galway. We also pool sovereignty, share a supranational poltical system in the EU and are part of a transfer union. This is not true of non-EEA countries. I can't just roll-up in Tokyo or Cape-Town and access the labour market and the fruits of that society, and I won't be granted privileges to so unless it suits the host country. And that's probably how it should be.
onlinenerd wrote: » I don't see why people are so afraid of change.Cultures evolve and change over the years and so there's no point crying over the fact that my child is going to live in a different society than I did.Also the hypocrisy is laughable at the fact that you were an immigrant in another EU country and reaped the benefits o the job but suddenly selfish when some foreigner is taking advantage of the same benefits in Ireland. Move along with the times.
Deleted User wrote: » Well... you're mixing migrants up here by your own phrasing. If they've come through boats, then they're most likely illegal, or under an Asylum process claim. So, comparing them to Irish people who have gone elsewhere under legal migrants as skilled labor doesn't really work. (yeah.. try going to the M.East illegally as a white person.. it won't work out well for you) Secondly, you introduced the tanned skin comment, which, in itself is quite racist, and ignorant of the situation. A large percentage of migrants who come to Ireland come from countries with various degrees of White skin. So.... Lastly, where is your evidence that the vast majority are hard working? Go on.. would love to see it. Actually, most economic migrants come from much poorer nations, with substandard education, and are often lacking in English language ability. Their contributions are usually on the bottom end of the workplaces... and that's if they are working. Many are on welfare, or are still within the asylum process receiving aid from the Irish State, so any such claims of contributions are suspect. Once again, you seem to be unsure of the origins of these migrants in Ireland. You call them economic migrants, but that's an extremely vague term.
Hamachi wrote: » From a personal perspective, I find this prediction quite saddening. The demographic changes in Ireland throughout the last two decades have been truly astounding. From a nation of ~98% indigenous to a foreign-born population of at least 17%. This pace of change is breakneck speed and appears to be accelerating. I have an 18-month old with another wee one on the way. I’m deeply concerned about the type of Ireland they will inherit. I deliberately returned* to this country to ensure that my children were raised as Irish and are steeped in the culture of their parents, grand parents and all those who went before. Given the profound demographic change and the insistence of a small, but vocal minority to denigrate Irish culture in favor of multiculturalism, my fear is that my children will emerge into a fragmented, unconfident society with little social capital and where ‘Irishness’ is perceived as something suspect. Perhaps, I’m being too pessimistic, but I mourn the fact that they will not grow up in a relatively stable and cohesive society, even if it was less affluent. *Before I’m accused of hypocrisy, I was a legal immigrant in a skilled role in another EU state. I also spoke the language to reasonably high level before I migrated. Never claimed welfare and contributed ~50% of my salary in taxation for almost a decade.
Hamachi wrote: » Given the profound demographic change and the insistence of a small, but vocal minority to denigrate Irish culture in favor of multiculturalism, my fear is that my children will emerge into a fragmented, unconfident society with little social capital and where ‘Irishness’ is perceived as something suspect. Perhaps, I’m being too pessimistic, but I mourn the fact that they will not grow up in a relatively stable and cohesive society, even if it was less affluent. .
[Deleted User] wrote: » Ireland will be a prime target for migrants because it's a neutral country, not in NATO, has a decent economy, and has a savior complex. Along with a certain susceptibility to "white guilt" for some bizarre reason. Irish people will look at our economy, the problems and consider it a recession. A time of hardship. Those from 3rd world nations will continue to see Ireland as a place of opportunity. That's not going to change unless Ireland returns to what it was like in the 60s.
UrbanSprawl wrote: » My views dont matter nor does yours the way of the world
Hamachi wrote: » Klaz, you have the patience of a saint. I’ve lost count of the number of times you have dispelled myths and disambiguated confused and misleading arguments throughout this thread. It’s quite something to behold.
Returning to my point, I firmly believe that it’s critical that the government gets handle on inward migration right now. The economy has just contracted by an unprecedented 6.1% quarter-on-quarter. There is simply no economic imperative for large scale migration. The time for entertaining dubious asylum seekers and permitting an influx of language students to work in low-skilled, precarious employment has to end.
I suspect there will be a significant amount of natural attrition. People simply will not come here if the opportunities do not exist. However, the government also needs to get more proactive. All future economic migration should be strictly limited to a small cohort of high skilled roles that truly cannot be filled domestically or across the wider EU at a stretch. Similarly, those students, primarily from Latin America, should be encouraged to return home as their temporary visas expire. The current practice of staying on indefinitely must be discontinued.
Deleted User wrote: » Maybe we could just suggest that we take in 100k Asians from China, Korea, Japan instead of Arabs/Africans. Somehow I suspect it wouldn't be allowed, which is a pity since Asians typically do extremely well in western nations and contribute only a tiny amount in the way of crime (not including Australia, as their Asian led crime is due to a wide range of factors). Asians also usually don't seek to change the culture/laws/etc of their host nation.
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