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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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Greaney

I was the residents assoc. rep for my estate when I lived in Doughiska. There was a lot of discussion regarding the 'Ardaun' suburb. A lot of communities in the east of the city were involved in the 'conversation'.

That plan included Roscam, Doughiska, Ardaun, The Industrial estates to the East of the City, Oranmore & Athenry , and The Western Rail Corridor.
ALL that infrastructure was going to be developed and linked to each other to the East of Galway city for commuters and the new suburbs to the East of the city. They were all parts of a bigger plan. The IDA payed over the odds per acre for land in Athenry to be the next large IDA site in Galway . They felt Parkmore had reached capacity. Mistakes had been made in planning in the earlier decades and significant swathes of the population of Galway lived on the West side of the city but worked on the east... in a city divided by a river & a lake that was a disastrous planning

Sooooo, The powers that be wanted Athenry to have the next big IDA park and lo!!!! There was going to be rail, to allow for public transport commuting to Athenry, (that and a motorway). Athenry was to be the new hub. How do I know all this? I was on a greater Doughiska residents committee, were were reps from all the estates. The Ardaun plan was presented to us by Galway City council when they did their 'first' five year plan for the suburb of Doughiska & Roscam. Furthermore, on moving out to Athenry I was enquiring as to why the Oranmore station was not built on the site of the old platform (which I thought was better planning) and was told it was due to linking it to Ardaun. I kinda felt that was an excuse and it was really because it was cheaper.

I think that the rail (build cycling infra along side, I'd not argue with that) would make Tuam take off!! I don't know if Tuam folk on this thread would like the effect it would have on property prices, but if I had money to spare, I'd invest in Tuam real estate and lobby like hell for rail. If I had to choose where to live, rail would swing it for me if it was in Tuam. It's a town with a lot to offer, has a great 'creative community' and a transportation hub would be trans formative for the station area of Tuam

monument

Moderator note:

This has been done to to death before — Oranmore is not part of the WRC.

Move on.

—moderator

serfboard

Greaney wrote: »

I think that the rail (build cycling infra along side, I'd not argue with that) would make Tuam take off!! I don't know if Tuam folk on this thread would like the effect it would have on property prices, but if I had money to spare, I'd invest in Tuam real estate and lobby like hell for rail. If I had to choose where to live, rail would swing it for me if it was in Tuam. It's a town with a lot to offer, has a great 'creative community' and a transportation hub would be trans formative for the station area of Tuam

Not for the first time, you come on here telling the people of Tuam what you think they should have.

Unfortunately for your dreams of a WRC, the people of Tuam are not convinced and what they actually want (and what several thousand of them marched around the town for) is for a Greenway to be built on the route, because Tuam people know that the railway is not coming back for several decades, if ever.

In the meantime, Tuam is more than adequately served with public transport, with (pre-Covid) 40 buses a day serving the town. This service will be enhanced even more with the expanded Bus Lanes and Bus-only roads planned for Galway city.

Greaney

serfboard wrote: »

In the meantime, Tuam is more than adequately served with public transport, with (pre-Covid) 40 buses a day serving the town. This service will be enhanced even more with the expanded Bus Lanes and Bus-only roads planned for Galway city.

It's not adequate public transport for those with physical disabilities for a start. It's not adequate to link to other parts of the country.
It's not adequate at all!!

Our public transport service in Rural Ireland is one of the worst in Europe

monument

monument wrote: »

Moderator note:

This has been done to to death before — Oranmore is not part of the WRC.

Move on.

—moderator

All tweets which do not follow this will just be deleted. Infraction will be also issued for the next ones.

Move on.

— moderator

devnull

All posters most always follow moderator instructions. If you have an issue with a moderation decision, do not discuss it on thread, PM the mod involved. Do not confront a moderator on thread. Do not back seat moderate, do not troll. I shouldn't need to say these things, but it seems I need to.

As I've posted in another thread very recently, there certainly has been a downward spiral in the quality of posting on this thread and other threads in the C+T forums over the past number of weeks and it seems to show no sign of passing. It's not acceptable. Full Stop.

Over the past number of months we have tried to avoid moderating discussion as much as previously, because we felt that is what people wanted. However some posters here are seriously pushing their luck and it's looking more and more like we need to review this.

Raise your standard of posting, or we'll have a crackdown. Your choice.

- Moderator

L1011

Greaney wrote: »

It's not adequate to link to other parts of the country.

The buses terminate beside the railway and BÉ station and an extremely short distance from the private Coach Station. How is this an inadequate level of linking to other parts of the country?

There's far more chance of the NTA arranging national single ticketing than there is of Tuam getting rail services; if that is your angle of complaint. As it stands, many major trip generators are going to still require multiple tickets via rail (Dublin Airport, for instance) just as they would via bus

Disabled access to coach services is still poor but improving hugely year on year. Its not that long ago that most intercity rail services were basically inaccessible to wheelchair users and the current system fails its users repeatedly with forgotten requests for ramps, failed lifts and so on - Irish Rail have only just started a major lift retrofit due to how much of a problem this had become. Whereas a bus/coach with a known failed ramp doesn't go out. Rail already does not automatically mean better access for those with disabilities; and in the potential timescale for Tuam reopening it will hopefully have been equalled off by coach fleet replacement.

intellectual dosser

Greaney wrote: »

I was the residents assoc. rep for my estate when I lived in Doughiska. There was a lot of discussion regarding the 'Ardaun' suburb. A lot of communities in the east of the city were involved in the 'conversation'.....

Hi Greaney, can I ask when those conversations took place and was anything documented or published online?

I don't doubt that they happened I'm asking out of curiosity.

Muckyboots

L1011 wrote: »

Rail already does not automatically mean better access for those with disabilities; and in the potential timescale for Tuam reopening it will hopefully have been equalled off by coach fleet replacement.

This is so true. Rush Train Station, north county Dublin has become the latest fully automated "ghost" station with no attendants and no toilets. At least a bus driver can get out and help someone if they are so inclined. Tuam would be a shell type ghost station from the off, with Irish Rail having plans from 2010 for a stop that doesn't include the old station building at all. Athenry and Claremorris will be fighting to keep what's left of the manned presence. I don't see any major benefits with regard to disabilities with a train over a bus - but I'm happy to be enlightened.

intellectual dosser

Muckyboots wrote: »

This is so true. Rush Train Station, north county Dublin has become the latest fully automated "ghost" station with no attendants and no toilets. At least a bus driver can get out and help someone if they are so inclined. Tuam would be a shell type ghost station from the off, with Irish Rail having plans from 2010 for a stop that doesn't include the old station building at all. Athenry and Claremorris will be fighting to keep what's left of the manned presence. I don't see any major benefits with regard to disabilities with a train over a bus - but I'm happy to be enlightened.

I take it you're picturing a Dublin Bus or a Galway city bus, not a Burke's bus for example that does Tuam to Galway or the routes discussed in this forum?

Its been a long time since I was on a Burke's Bus but I don't think they can accommodate wheelchair users, in any case I'd expect the benefits a train has over it to be significant. I'll also make myself open to enlightenment though.

Muckyboots

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I take it you're picturing a Dublin Bus or a Galway city bus, not a Burke's bus for example that does Tuam to Galway or the routes discussed in this forum?

Its been a long time since I was on a Burke's Bus but I don't think they can accommodate wheelchair users, in any case I'd expect the benefits a train has over it to be significant. I'll also make myself open to enlightenment though.

I am picturing the friendly faces of Burke's Buses TBH. Not all people with disabilities are "wheelchair users" but I would hope that regardless of what happens to the WRC wheelchair-accessible buses will become mandatory to those who work within public service contracts only, unlike a train, there will be a driver available to assist if needed.

westtip

Just wondering if there is any public opinion known from wheelchair users about the fantastic benefits greenways bring to normalise their lives, with the ability to get out and be on a safe to use route through open countryside, due to gradients on greenways they are very wheelchair friendly. It would be interesting to get wheelchair user views and those who care for wheelchair users...

Del.Monte

I'd be interested in some stats on wheelchair users and pram/buggy users on greenways as I reckon it's overplayed but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

[Deleted User]

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'd be interested in some stats on wheelchair users and pram/buggy users on greenways as I reckon it's overplayed but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Can you clarify as to what you think is "overplayed"?

Pete_Cavan

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'd be interested in some stats on wheelchair users and pram/buggy users on greenways as I reckon it's overplayed but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

I'd wager it is higher than their use of rural railways.

eastwest

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'd be interested in some stats on wheelchair users and pram/buggy users on greenways as I reckon it's overplayed but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

You should read up on Irish and international disability policy.
Welcome to 2020.

end of the road

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I'd wager it is higher than their use of rural railways.

that wouldn't be hard given there arern't any actual rural railways.

serfboard

Greaney wrote: »

It's not adequate public transport for those with physical disabilities for a start.

And the only solution is a train?

So, what about those with physical disabilities who need public transport who don't live anywhere near a train line (either active or abandoned)? What will be the solution for them, do you think?

donvito99

serfboard wrote: »

And the only solution is a train?

So, what about those with physical disabilities who need public transport who don't live anywhere near a train line (either active or abandoned)? What will be the solution for them, do you think?

I think it's fair to say that we would be depriving persons with disabilities (who are disproportionately reliant on public transport) by allocating to a railway of this kind. I think it's fairly obvious that an investment in bus infrastructure is much more likely to be of use to persons with disabilities in the west.

So you'd have to conclude that this argument is just another 'benefit' of the WRC that doesn't stand up to a great deal of scrutiny at all.

Del.Monte

So apart from the usual jumping on the messenger for having the audacity to ask a question - I know in today's pc world that's not allowed - are there any stats regarding the number of wheelchairs users/prams etc. using greenways?

[Deleted User]

Del.Monte wrote: »

So apart from the usual jumping on the messenger for having the audacity to ask a question - I know in today's pc world that's not allowed

You made a statement, I asked you to clarify, pretty simple, nothing to get stressed about. Would you like to clarify?

are there any stats regarding the number of wheelchairs users/prams etc. using greenways?

No idea, haven't looked for it. Unless anyone has it, I'd advise contacting the various councils to see what info they have on the greenways in their areas

Greaney

I'd be surprised if anyone on this forum knows anyone with disabilities or has to care for anyone vulnerable. The discourse here on the issue of disabilities is sickening.

I'm a carer for my sister who's a member of the Irish Wheelchair association. She hasn't ridden a bus in years. The country buses are 'coaches'. They are not wheelchair accessible at all and are difficult to access for people with mobility issues. Not to mention some private bus companies have started charging an extra €3 on top of the 'free travel'

Needless to say, a significant amount of people with disabilities use the train in Athenry. A lot of mobility scooters, and folk with intellectual disabilties.

The regional county office for the Irish Wheelchair association is in Tuam, and their members had lobbied in the past for the WRC

Ronnie Corbett 3:00

[Deleted User]

Greaney wrote: »

I'd be surprised if anyone on this forum knows anyone with disabilities or has to care for anyone vulnerable.

SURPRISE!

I was born with a physical disability and will have mobility issues until the day I'm buried, I've mentioned previously on this thread.

I also spent several years working in the field, St Michaels House, CRC etc

I still don't think its a good enough reason to open the WRC, never will.

lucernarian

[Deleted User] wrote: »

SURPRISE!

I was born with a physical disability and will have mobility issues until the day I'm buried, I've mentioned previously on this thread.

I also spent several years working in the field, St Michaels House, CRC etc

I still don't think its a good enough reason to open the WRC, never will.

It doesn't really address what Greenery is saying though.

Pete_Cavan

Greaney wrote: »

I'd be surprised if anyone on this forum knows anyone with disabilities or has to care for anyone vulnerable. The discourse here on the issue of disabilities is sickening.

I'm a carer for my sister who's a member of the Irish Wheelchair association. She hasn't ridden a bus in years. The country buses are 'coaches'. They are not wheelchair accessible at all and are difficult to access for people with mobility issues. Not to mention some private bus companies have started charging an extra €3 on top of the 'free travel'

Needless to say, a significant amount of people with disabilities use the train in Athenry. A lot of mobility scooters, and folk with intellectual disabilties.

The regional county office for the Irish Wheelchair association is in Tuam, and their members had lobbied in the past for the WRC

What is sickening? Give some examples.

The bus fleet and associated infrastructure will and is being updated to better accommodate people with mobility issues. It is far more realistic and achievable than WRC. Like everything else, if it is of such concern, why are people willing to wait a decade (and likely several) for trains to address an issue instead of pushing for something which can address it much quicker and doesn't prevent your preferred solution from being implemented later? It seems like another attempt to position rail as the only solution to a problem when it clearly isn't.

serfboard

lucernarian wrote: »

It doesn't really address what Greenery is saying though.

And "Greenery" doesn't address what I said, which is, what is the public transport solution for people with disabilities who do not live near a train line?

westtip

Greaney wrote: »

I'd be surprised if anyone on this forum knows anyone with disabilities or has to care for anyone vulnerable. The discourse here on the issue of disabilities is sickening

This is not a competition to see who is doing the most for the disabled and I truly admire what you are doing for your sister. I have just come out of a period of caring for someone who passed away recently at the age of 97. My mother.

An interesting person. Who campaigned for separated cycleways from roads as far back as the 1950s, She could see what was going to happen to cyclist on roads a long way ahead of them becoming dangerous for leisure cycling. I drove with her from county Sligo to Newport a few years back to let her see the western greenway, we spent an afternoon walking the greenway, well I was doing the walking she sat in her wheelchair. This is fantastic she said - its like the Tissington Trail we used to take you on as children. They should do this with al the closed railways, so you see where I get my influences from. Many of you may know Enniscrone in County Sligo. A short tarmacced path has been put along the coast there, now despite one sharp hill on it, it is very user friendly for wheelchairs. She used to love it. About two years ago on the Waterford Gway I met a man in his 70s in a selfdrive wheelchair he said this was a godsend for him. I am not knocking any of the issues about wheelchair accessibility on public transport - a huge issue. But i put the post up to open up the discussion on this issue purely based on personal experience. As a local facility, I am convinced a greenway running through a village or town will be a huge benefit for families caring for wheelchair bound people, not to mention all the arguments about families taking small children out for bike rides. It is all part of he lifestyle benefits greenways, in particular using the low gradient of closed railway will be of huge benefit to a part of our society which we still only really pay lip service too. It is not a debate to try and score points on. thanks for all the contributions on this part of the discussion.

lucernarian

serfboard wrote: »

And "Greenery" doesn't address what I said, which is, what is the public transport solution for people with disabilities who do not live near a train line?

That post he wrote wasn't in reply to something you said as far as I can see (no quote etc). I think if someone replies to a particular quote, it would be interesting to see if there is a pertinent reply or not. I'm interested in the issue but am on the fence, though other rail lines could be reopened with lower costs or greater benefit.

serfboard

lucernarian wrote: »

other rail lines could be reopened with ... greater benefit.

I'll change that slightly.

Money will be spent on rail in areas with far greater benefit than a WRC north of Athenry. DART+, DART Underground, Metrolink, a rail line to Navan, Luas extensions in Dublin and a possible Tram line in Cork.

OK, says you, but what about for us here in the West? Double-tracking Portarlington to Athlone, double-tracking Athlone to Galway (or at least Athenry to Galway), even opening up bloody Manulla Junction to act as a Park n' Ride for Castlebar, an awfully traffic-choked town.

The WRC north of Athenry is so far down the list that it's effectively not on the list at all. So, for the next few decades that it's going to remain idle, let's have a Greenway on it.

westtip

There are rumours circulating the report on the WRC could actually be seeing light of day soon, WOT have been making comments in the Connaught Tribune about it coming out on October 8th and playing up expectations of Minister Ryan delivering the Rail Corridor, who knows could be true, it could be wishful thinking. West on Track welcomed the announcement of the report when it was given the heads up in Ireland 2040 I seem to recall a spokesperson of WOT on the RTE news welcoming the report and being confident it would deliver. Well we all hope to see the dam thing soon, and if it says build the railway fair play to WOT, get on with it. However I don't think this will be another McCann report - a report which WOT was effectively in the driving seat on. 'That has not been the case with the EY consulting report, WOT has not controlled the agenda. In truth I would guess WOT never wanted this report, they wanted the WRC to be a firm commitment in the Ireland 2040 plan, they never got that commitment, they got this report, that put them on the back foot. If the report has been a ringing endorsement for the railway my guess is that Sean Canney a mate of Lord Ross would have leaked this report a long time ago, but nope that has not happened. So what does it say. In truth none of us know. In the latest Connaught Tribune front page article posted up on FB this evening on one of the Greenway pages, there is no indication what the report says, but the article appears to throw a gauntlet down to Eamon Ryan about the Rail Corridor. Eamon Ryan really can only recommend what the report says, he will be the messenger on this one. For all our sakes we need to see this report for our own sanity, if it says build the railway then get on with it, if it doesn't then I hope everyone will be able to accept this conclusion and allow other things to progress but lets see the dam thing.