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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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Silent Running

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I think the short answer is that the ESB doesn't want to do it, so they're putting in as few resources as possible.

I don't see how DC charging companies in Ireland will ever make money, at 29c/kWh they're probably just covering the price of the electricity.

I still think the best hope is for businesses to provide charging on-site to entice customers. As was pointed out a few weeks ago, a service station makes twice as much profit on a cup of coffee as a €50 tank of diesel. Car manufacturers could get in on it as well, providing the charging equipment and specialist knowledge, since they'd be able to command a better price.

The trick for the government is to tailor grants and planning laws around making sure the type of charger is suitable for a location. It's nice that Tesco is installing 22kW chargers, but let's face it, for the majority of folks they're useless. 2x 50kW chargers would be more useful as you can fit in a weekly shop around a charging session

This has to be balanced with

Just a bit of a nitpick. Tesco isn't installing anything. They are allowing E-cars to use their car parks for charge points. There is no downside for Tesco in most cases as the car parks are usually big enough to allocate a few for charging.

It's not like Tesco are subsidising the charging cost, as they used to do with fossil fuels.

It's really a gimmick to show how green they are.

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, and I will not pay 79c
If I have to pay 60 quid to fill up my Tesla I'm going back to luxobarges

But you're complaining about having to pay 79 cent per Kwh when you can charge at home on cheap electricity probably more than 90% of the time, that's just mad.

I'd be glad of a charger if I needed it and the 79 cent ensures only those who need it will use it, suits me fine.

[Deleted User]

McGiver wrote: »

They are cleverly designed for VW, Skoda, Audi etc to give reasonable Ionity rates for owners of their newly sold cars but to hammer everyone else.

Why should they be cheaper ? do you not think that it is, for now at least, necessary to keep chargers available ?

Sure, if there's an available ESB charger I will go to that instead but the chances are it will be in use or have a queue and I'd rather pay the 79 cent per Kwh for the couple of times a year I might need to charge and if I had a car capable of charging at 100 Kw+ that's even better.

[Deleted User]

liamog wrote: »

Guy with car that maxes out at 50kW complains that other car that maxes out at 50kW is using charger as he can't get the free charge that someone else is.

Well the difference is that I wasn't going to abandon the car for potentially 45 mins or more.

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

63c/kWh
To do 10-80% in my S90D would cost about €32. Hardly cheap for ~230km.

And what does it cost you at home at night for 90% + of your driving ?

Why do you want cheap ? you get ultra cheap charging most of the time, surely you want/prefer a good dependable network ?

McGiver

Deleted User wrote:

Why should they be cheaper ? do you not think that it is, for now at least, necessary to keep chargers available ?

No, I fully agree with Ionity strategy. It makes a lot of commercial sense. Leave it open for others but at a high cost so you don't risk clogging but still provide essential skeleton infrastructure.

[Deleted User]

McGiver wrote: »

No, I fully agree with Ionity strategy. It makes a lot of commercial sense. Leave it open for others but at a high cost so you don't risk clogging but still provide essential skeleton infrastructure.

Exactly, with ESB you get what you pay for, Queues in busier spots or broken chargers with nowhere else to charge, if you're lucky you'll get to an AC point if that's not in use.

McGiver

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly, with ESB you get what you pay for, Queues in busier spots or broken chargers with nowhere else to charge, if you're lucky you'll get to an AC point if that's not in use.

With the exception that the taxpayer (us and the EU) already paid! Where's the money?

McGiver

Anyway, back to topic of eCars expansion - where is the actual expansion?

So we've got 2x 150kW chargers with 1 CSS port each, and then? Where is the rest? How many and when???

In the meantime elsewhere in the Galaxy far away, the Czech government with the help of the EU funds has opened yet another round of tenders to release grants in support of "alternative fuel infrastructure" i.e. charging station installations to achieve a core network of minimum 800 FCPs by the end of 2023. The grant is capped at 15k EUR per FCP and the criteria are well-preparedness and relevance of the project, cost effectiveness and the applicant must have been doing business in areas of electrical installations, electrical distribution systems or operating at least 10x public charging stations.

The above is in addition to existing last year's 2 projects which were tendered out to two largest electricity providers who are building total of 250 new FPCs to be completed next year, a % of which will be 150 kW+ FCPs.

There are already 350 FCPs in CZ on roughly same area as Ireland and for about the same number of EVs, I believe there is approx. 100 SCPs here now (don't count Tesla), so that's about 3-3.5x more. And that's an example from what people here would call "Eastern Europe" (it's really Central, but anyway) and being looked down upon as if less developed or something. I don't even need to mention examples from the Netherlands, Austria or Norway, much more developed EV markets, they are leagues above Ireland.

Questions - Why doesn't the Irish gov use the EU money to build the charging network in this way too? And why it doesn't tender out the infrastructure roll-out to multiple companies? I'm sure SSE etc would be interested. Leaving it one company seems stupid in my opinion. I would involve local authorities as well, especially for AC, but they could do DC where applicable.

the_amazing_raisin

Just saw a new charger going into Circle K in Dublin Port today. Didn't get a great look as I passed but it looked like a DC charger. Not sure if it's replacing the existing DC charger or the 22kW AC charger beside it, hopefully the latter

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

And what does it cost you at home at night for 90% + of your driving ?

Why do you want cheap ? you get ultra cheap charging most of the time, surely you want/prefer a good dependable network ?

At night rate it costs for that same 50 kWh around 4 quid. But you have to pay for the charger install (1500 quid before grant in my case). I still have a loss compared to running a fossil fuel car.

With my new low mileage profile due to 2 WFH fintech professionals that used to commute 120km a day, my next car will in all likelihood have 6-8+ cylinders. I've gone from 55-60k km per year to sub 10k

For the money I spent on my Tesla and my charger install, I could have a Nissan GTR v6, a Bentley w12, a BMW 760li v12/E60M5v10 etc. At sub 10k per annum, you don't spend much on running costs.

McGiver wrote: »

No, I fully agree with Ionity strategy. It makes a lot of commercial sense. Leave it open for others but at a high cost so you don't risk clogging but still provide essential skeleton infrastructure.

Except they shouldnt have that right as they received EU taxpayer subsidy on the basis of the network being open to all and not preferential treatment.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

Except they shouldnt have that right as they received EU taxpayer subsidy on the basis of the network being open to all and not preferential treatment.

It's open to all. :cool: And there's no preferential treatment as the base price is the same for everyone. That some carmaker gives you a special card allowing you to get a discount is not exactly preferential treatment, it's a benefit you get from them as part of the purchase of their cars.

They designed it well, it's borderline but still adhering to this requirement of "no preferential treatment".

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

It's open to all. :cool: And there's no preferential treatment as the base price is the same for everyone. That some carmaker gives you a special card allowing you to get a discount is not exactly preferential treatment, it's a benefit you get from them as part of the purchase of their cars.

They designed it well, it's borderline but still adhering to this requirement of "no preferential treatment".

It might be in the letter of the law but certainly not the spirit, that's for sure.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

It might be in the letter of the law but certainly not the spirit, that's for sure.

Correct. Pretty sur VAG, Merc et al have good lawyers.

slave1

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Just saw a new charger going into Circle K in Dublin Port today. Didn't get a great look as I passed but it looked like a DC charger. Not sure if it's replacing the existing DC charger or the 22kW AC charger beside it, hopefully the latter

...and if the latter this means eCars are installing 2kW charge points in 2020, well done eCars:rolleyes:

liamog

slave1 wrote: »

...and if the latter this means eCars are installing 2kW charge points in 2020, well done eCars:rolleyes:

We all know that's not the purpose of the 44kW deployments, it's starting to become a meme the way people deliberately misrepresent the improvement for 90% of EV owners at the expense of the 10% of Zoe's.

[Deleted User]

The 2 150 Kw units went in in late 2019 wow, mega charging upgrades.

AndyBoBandy

Deleted User wrote: »

The 2 150 Kw units went in in late 2019 wow, mega charging upgrades.

Kilcullen & Galway Plaza? They only went in this year (since I've owned an EV anyway)!!

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

The 2 150 Kw units went in in late 2019 wow, mega charging upgrades.

As far as I'm aware they were installed in July (2 months ago)

slave1

liamog wrote: »

We all know that's not the purpose of the 44kW deployments, it's starting to become a meme the way people deliberately misrepresent the improvement for 90% of EV owners at the expense of the 10% of Zoe's.

Agree to disagree, the 2kW is actually largely irrelevant to me.
From my perspective there were two charge points and now there's one because let's be practical the 2kW is useless.
To keep their number of charge points high they went and put in a 2kW post.
Lots of 16 and 11 kWh cars out there also that can make great use from 2 22kW posts with a half hour/hour hook up.
It's just my perspective of things, happens to be different to yours and eCars is all

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

Except they shouldnt have that right as they received EU taxpayer subsidy on the basis of the network being open to all and not preferential treatment.

Are you sure about that, I'd like a source if you are trying to assert that Ionity are in breach of their subsidy, it's a fairly serious accusation.

Clarification on why I'm asking, mainly because it's interesting and would be keen to see if enforcement happens at an EU level.

liamog

slave1 wrote: »

Agree to disagree, the 2kW is actually largely irrelevant to me.
From my perspective there were two charge points and now there's one because let's be practical the 2kW is useless.
To keep their number of charge points high they went and put in a 2kW post.
Lots of 16 and 11 kWh cars out there also that can make great use from 2 22kW posts with a half hour/hour hook up.
It's just my perspective of things, happens to be different to yours and eCars is all

They have not installed a 2kW post.
They installed a 44kW DC with a 6kW 3 phase AC socket.

slave1

Not being an arse about it but how many EV owners have 3phase cables that came with their car?
And still, this limits the 11/16/22 capable car versus the 22 that was there before

liamog

slave1 wrote: »

Not being an arse about it but how many EV owners have 3phase cables that came with their car?
And still, this limits the 11/16/22 capable car versus the 22 that was there before

If you need to charge faster, there is a CHAdeMO and CCS connector approx 30cm away from you, on the same unit. I don't think there were any car's sold without DC charging, and without a 3 phase charger. Maybe some Leaf's but not sure if they were ever sold here.

Leaving just the Zoe's and B250e's that have to put up with a lower charging speed.
The way the 2kW charging post is represented is akin to Tesla providing a 3 pin plug at a supercharger and people claiming supercharger installs are a 2kW charge point.

[Deleted User]

liamog wrote: »

As far as I'm aware they were installed in July (2 months ago)

Yes you're correct, got mixed up with the mega charging hubs they installed the 2x 50 Kw lol.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes you're correct, got mixed up with the mega charging hubs they installed the 2x 50 Kw lol.

The fact that we still only have 3 eCars sites with multiple DC chargers is a joke alright.

innrain

Deleted User wrote: »

The 2 150 Kw units went in in late 2019 wow, mega charging upgrades.

They are actually 3. Portlaois Plaza is 150kW capable but 50kW limited due to some power constrains

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Are you sure about that, I'd like a source if you are trying to assert that Ionity are in breach of their subsidy, it's a fairly serious accusation.

Clarification on why I'm asking, mainly because it's interesting and would be keen to see if enforcement happens at an EU level.

I'm not trying to assert that. I think the prior poster is correct that they are strictly speaking within the agreed terms, but that they have turned it to their advantage by using taxpayer money to partially fund their own network.

slave1 wrote: »

Agree to disagree, the 2kW is actually largely irrelevant to me.
From my perspective there were two charge points and now there's one because let's be practical the 2kW is useless.
To keep their number of charge points high they went and put in a 2kW post.
Lots of 16 and 11 kWh cars out there also that can make great use from 2 22kW posts with a half hour/hour hook up.
It's just my perspective of things, happens to be different to yours and eCars is all

liamog wrote: »

We all know that's not the purpose of the 44kW deployments, it's starting to become a meme the way people deliberately misrepresent the improvement for 90% of EV owners at the expense of the 10% of Zoe's.

To both the above, the AC is irrelevant. These DC points are an upgrade for 95+% of Irish EVs that are not Zoes and can charge faster on a DC point than on a 32a 3phase AC point

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not trying to assert that. I think the prior poster is correct that they are strictly speaking within the agreed terms, but that they have turned it to their advantage by using taxpayer money to partially fund their own network.

I wonder if it comes down to regulatory compliance. The directive sets out that a charger is public access when it provides non-discriminatory access. This has been interpreted in some states as Tesla is allowed to provide access to Tesla owners, but they wouldn't be allowed to provide access to a single partner.
I.e. if Tesla offered supercharger access to Jaguar, then they become a public access network, and are required to provide access to all.

I presume Ionity took this on board, so have set pricing to discourage out of network use.

‘recharging, or refuelling point accessible to the public’ means a recharging, or refuelling point to supply an alternative fuel which provides Union-wide non-discriminatory access to users. Non-discriminatory access may include different terms of authentication, use, and payment;

Black_Knight

Marina Car Park, Off Strand Street, Dingle, Kerry AC unit got an upgrade. It was one of those crappy EBG - Highline BM FA (the original units with the sliding ports on the side, it's now a one of the new eVolve Smart T. Think they've proved much more reliable. Seems a few on plugshare have been venting about it. Caught a few out it seems. But ya know... 96% availability and all that BS