nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

[Deleted User]

The 2 150 Kw units went in in late 2019 wow, mega charging upgrades.

liamog

slave1 wrote: »

...and if the latter this means eCars are installing 2kW charge points in 2020, well done eCars:rolleyes:

We all know that's not the purpose of the 44kW deployments, it's starting to become a meme the way people deliberately misrepresent the improvement for 90% of EV owners at the expense of the 10% of Zoe's.

slave1

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Just saw a new charger going into Circle K in Dublin Port today. Didn't get a great look as I passed but it looked like a DC charger. Not sure if it's replacing the existing DC charger or the 22kW AC charger beside it, hopefully the latter

...and if the latter this means eCars are installing 2kW charge points in 2020, well done eCars:rolleyes:

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

It might be in the letter of the law but certainly not the spirit, that's for sure.

Correct. Pretty sur VAG, Merc et al have good lawyers.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

It's open to all. :cool: And there's no preferential treatment as the base price is the same for everyone. That some carmaker gives you a special card allowing you to get a discount is not exactly preferential treatment, it's a benefit you get from them as part of the purchase of their cars.

They designed it well, it's borderline but still adhering to this requirement of "no preferential treatment".

It might be in the letter of the law but certainly not the spirit, that's for sure.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

Except they shouldnt have that right as they received EU taxpayer subsidy on the basis of the network being open to all and not preferential treatment.

It's open to all. :cool: And there's no preferential treatment as the base price is the same for everyone. That some carmaker gives you a special card allowing you to get a discount is not exactly preferential treatment, it's a benefit you get from them as part of the purchase of their cars.

They designed it well, it's borderline but still adhering to this requirement of "no preferential treatment".

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

And what does it cost you at home at night for 90% + of your driving ?

Why do you want cheap ? you get ultra cheap charging most of the time, surely you want/prefer a good dependable network ?

At night rate it costs for that same 50 kWh around 4 quid. But you have to pay for the charger install (1500 quid before grant in my case). I still have a loss compared to running a fossil fuel car.

With my new low mileage profile due to 2 WFH fintech professionals that used to commute 120km a day, my next car will in all likelihood have 6-8+ cylinders. I've gone from 55-60k km per year to sub 10k

For the money I spent on my Tesla and my charger install, I could have a Nissan GTR v6, a Bentley w12, a BMW 760li v12/E60M5v10 etc. At sub 10k per annum, you don't spend much on running costs.

McGiver wrote: »

No, I fully agree with Ionity strategy. It makes a lot of commercial sense. Leave it open for others but at a high cost so you don't risk clogging but still provide essential skeleton infrastructure.

Except they shouldnt have that right as they received EU taxpayer subsidy on the basis of the network being open to all and not preferential treatment.

the_amazing_raisin

Just saw a new charger going into Circle K in Dublin Port today. Didn't get a great look as I passed but it looked like a DC charger. Not sure if it's replacing the existing DC charger or the 22kW AC charger beside it, hopefully the latter

McGiver

Anyway, back to topic of eCars expansion - where is the actual expansion?

So we've got 2x 150kW chargers with 1 CSS port each, and then? Where is the rest? How many and when???

In the meantime elsewhere in the Galaxy far away, the Czech government with the help of the EU funds has opened yet another round of tenders to release grants in support of "alternative fuel infrastructure" i.e. charging station installations to achieve a core network of minimum 800 FCPs by the end of 2023. The grant is capped at 15k EUR per FCP and the criteria are well-preparedness and relevance of the project, cost effectiveness and the applicant must have been doing business in areas of electrical installations, electrical distribution systems or operating at least 10x public charging stations.

The above is in addition to existing last year's 2 projects which were tendered out to two largest electricity providers who are building total of 250 new FPCs to be completed next year, a % of which will be 150 kW+ FCPs.

There are already 350 FCPs in CZ on roughly same area as Ireland and for about the same number of EVs, I believe there is approx. 100 SCPs here now (don't count Tesla), so that's about 3-3.5x more. And that's an example from what people here would call "Eastern Europe" (it's really Central, but anyway) and being looked down upon as if less developed or something. I don't even need to mention examples from the Netherlands, Austria or Norway, much more developed EV markets, they are leagues above Ireland.

Questions - Why doesn't the Irish gov use the EU money to build the charging network in this way too? And why it doesn't tender out the infrastructure roll-out to multiple companies? I'm sure SSE etc would be interested. Leaving it one company seems stupid in my opinion. I would involve local authorities as well, especially for AC, but they could do DC where applicable.

McGiver

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly, with ESB you get what you pay for, Queues in busier spots or broken chargers with nowhere else to charge, if you're lucky you'll get to an AC point if that's not in use.

With the exception that the taxpayer (us and the EU) already paid! Where's the money?

[Deleted User]

McGiver wrote: »

No, I fully agree with Ionity strategy. It makes a lot of commercial sense. Leave it open for others but at a high cost so you don't risk clogging but still provide essential skeleton infrastructure.

Exactly, with ESB you get what you pay for, Queues in busier spots or broken chargers with nowhere else to charge, if you're lucky you'll get to an AC point if that's not in use.

McGiver

Deleted User wrote:

Why should they be cheaper ? do you not think that it is, for now at least, necessary to keep chargers available ?

No, I fully agree with Ionity strategy. It makes a lot of commercial sense. Leave it open for others but at a high cost so you don't risk clogging but still provide essential skeleton infrastructure.

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

63c/kWh
To do 10-80% in my S90D would cost about €32. Hardly cheap for ~230km.

And what does it cost you at home at night for 90% + of your driving ?

Why do you want cheap ? you get ultra cheap charging most of the time, surely you want/prefer a good dependable network ?

[Deleted User]

liamog wrote: »

Guy with car that maxes out at 50kW complains that other car that maxes out at 50kW is using charger as he can't get the free charge that someone else is.

Well the difference is that I wasn't going to abandon the car for potentially 45 mins or more.

[Deleted User]

McGiver wrote: »

They are cleverly designed for VW, Skoda, Audi etc to give reasonable Ionity rates for owners of their newly sold cars but to hammer everyone else.

Why should they be cheaper ? do you not think that it is, for now at least, necessary to keep chargers available ?

Sure, if there's an available ESB charger I will go to that instead but the chances are it will be in use or have a queue and I'd rather pay the 79 cent per Kwh for the couple of times a year I might need to charge and if I had a car capable of charging at 100 Kw+ that's even better.

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, and I will not pay 79c
If I have to pay 60 quid to fill up my Tesla I'm going back to luxobarges

But you're complaining about having to pay 79 cent per Kwh when you can charge at home on cheap electricity probably more than 90% of the time, that's just mad.

I'd be glad of a charger if I needed it and the 79 cent ensures only those who need it will use it, suits me fine.

Silent Running

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I think the short answer is that the ESB doesn't want to do it, so they're putting in as few resources as possible.

I don't see how DC charging companies in Ireland will ever make money, at 29c/kWh they're probably just covering the price of the electricity.

I still think the best hope is for businesses to provide charging on-site to entice customers. As was pointed out a few weeks ago, a service station makes twice as much profit on a cup of coffee as a €50 tank of diesel. Car manufacturers could get in on it as well, providing the charging equipment and specialist knowledge, since they'd be able to command a better price.

The trick for the government is to tailor grants and planning laws around making sure the type of charger is suitable for a location. It's nice that Tesco is installing 22kW chargers, but let's face it, for the majority of folks they're useless. 2x 50kW chargers would be more useful as you can fit in a weekly shop around a charging session

This has to be balanced with

Just a bit of a nitpick. Tesco isn't installing anything. They are allowing E-cars to use their car parks for charge points. There is no downside for Tesco in most cases as the car parks are usually big enough to allocate a few for charging.

It's not like Tesco are subsidising the charging cost, as they used to do with fossil fuels.

It's really a gimmick to show how green they are.

McGiver

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I think the short answer is that the ESB doesn't want to do it, so they're putting in as few resources as possible.

I don't see how DC charging companies in Ireland will ever make money, at 29c/kWh they're probably just covering the price of the electricity.

You may be right regarding the ESB.

If you think this is the case then follow Germany and mandate petrol stations/car parkers to install chargers by law. Yes, it's quite a bit interventionist but if we want to wait for the "market to fix it" then we're for a long wait....

I'd say, given that it's linked to emissions and international commitments Ireland has made regarding them, it should be fine for the gov to mandate this.

the_amazing_raisin

KCross wrote: »

Why they are so slow over the last 12-18 months to roll out the super hubs is a mystery though.

That one bugs me the most, I know they've been trying to replace broken equipment first, but those charging hubs were really the highlight of the expansion plan.

I would have thought if anyone could fast track installing a 600kW-1200kW supply it would be the ESB...

McGiver

Cyrus wrote: »

im not really sure what the issue is, the ESB is actually a very capable engineering company that delivers excellent projects worldwide, why this roll out of ev charging is such a clusterfook is beyond me.

The issue is - lack of market regulation, lack of competition, lack of legislation, red tape etc.

It's not an engineering question. After all, it's all relatively simple electrical stuff we're talking about.

the_amazing_raisin

Cyrus wrote: »

im not really sure what the issue is, the ESB is actually a very capable engineering company that delivers excellent projects worldwide, why this roll out of ev charging is such a clusterfook is beyond me.

I think the short answer is that the ESB doesn't want to do it, so they're putting in as few resources as possible.

I don't see how DC charging companies in Ireland will ever make money, at 29c/kWh they're probably just covering the price of the electricity.

I still think the best hope is for businesses to provide charging on-site to entice customers. As was pointed out a few weeks ago, a service station makes twice as much profit on a cup of coffee as a €50 tank of diesel. Car manufacturers could get in on it as well, providing the charging equipment and specialist knowledge, since they'd be able to command a better price.

The trick for the government is to tailor grants and planning laws around making sure the type of charger is suitable for a location. It's nice that Tesco is installing 22kW chargers, but let's face it, for the majority of folks they're useless. 2x 50kW chargers would be more useful as you can fit in a weekly shop around a charging session

This has to be balanced with

KCross

Cyrus wrote: »

im not really sure what the issue is, the ESB is actually a very capable engineering company that delivers excellent projects worldwide, why this roll out of ev charging is such a clusterfook is beyond me.

Because there is little money to be made in it. They are profit driven. Until the govt were willing to pony up some money they sat on their hands.

The CRU didnt help either. They procrastinated about who owns the network for a couple of years during which time eCars didnt expand the network as it would have been all for nothing if the CRU took the network off them.

Why they are so slow over the last 12-18 months to roll out the super hubs is a mystery though.

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

In Norway, the state put out a tender for charging operators when the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation won the tenders and supplied charging services (GOOD)

In Ireland, the state offload the responsibility for building a charging network as the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation did the work and supplied charging services (BAD).

Why blame the organisation when it's the government who's at fault here. Throwing shade at it being a state owned organisation has nothing to do with the problem. It's our government ineptitude that's the problem.

Yeah, exactly, that's my point. I'm not against semi-states per se, what matters is the rules around them. We're in agreement here...

Yes, it's down to the state legislation/regulation here, not down to Ecars/ESB. They just carry out the mandate given by them by the gov and under current (not that correct) legislation and under the current (again faulty) regulatory regime, and as a semi-state do that with all their inefficiency as usual.

Cyrus

liamog wrote: »

In Norway, the state put out a tender for charging operators when the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation won the tenders and supplied charging services (GOOD)

In Ireland, the state offload the responsibility for building a charging network as the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation did the work and supplied charging services (BAD).

Why blame the organisation when it's the government who's at fault here. Throwing shade at it being a state owned organisation has nothing to do with the problem. It's our government ineptitude that's the problem.

im not really sure what the issue is, the ESB is actually a very capable engineering company that delivers excellent projects worldwide, why this roll out of ev charging is such a clusterfook is beyond me.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Yes, they do but that's irrelevant. This is not an ideological question.

The difference is in how they go about it, and how they regulate the market.

It's perfectly fine for the state to tender out charging infrastructure to semi-states as long as you don't distort the market, the market is properly regulated and the conditions for the tenders are reasonable. None of that applies to Ireland...

In Norway, the state put out a tender for charging operators when the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation won the tenders and supplied charging services (GOOD)

In Ireland, the state offload the responsibility for building a charging network as the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation did the work and supplied charging services (BAD).

Why blame the organisation when it's the government who's at fault here. Throwing shade at it being a state owned organisation has nothing to do with the problem. It's our government ineptitude that's the problem.

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

Fortum have the same corporate ownership as ESB, they are a Finnish semi state.
We can blame the NTA for not opening up motorway charging stations to competition.

Yes, they do but that's irrelevant. This is not an ideological question.

The difference is in how they go about it, and how they regulate the market.

It's perfectly fine for the state to tender out charging infrastructure to semi-states as long as you don't distort the market, the market is properly regulated and the conditions for the tenders are reasonable. None of that applies to Ireland...

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Yeah, but as Ecars isn't really a private for-profit enterprise but a semi-state monopoly at the moment
...

Fortrum in NO/SV/FI charges per min or per kWh & per min but the concept is similar as the German one, ratio 1:2:3 (roughly), even though it's time based, which is brilliant for utilisation (they are smart).

Fortum have the same corporate ownership as ESB, they are a Finnish semi state.
We can blame the NTA for not opening up motorway charging stations to competition.

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

Yeah, but as Ecars isn't really a private for-profit enterprise but a semi-state monopoly at the moment, they can set the rates as they wish and distort the market. So I suspect 1.1x will be the case...

In CZ and DE E-ON (large German electricity provider) have the per kWh prices in 1:2:3 ratio for 22 kW AC:50 kW DC:175kW DC at 12c/24c/36c. So the 175kW is 1.5x the price of 50 kW DC.

Fortrum in NO/SV/FI charges per min or per kWh & per min but the concept is similar as the German one, ratio 1:2:3 (roughly), even though it's time based, which is brilliant for utilisation (they are smart).

AC - 2 NOK per min (16c)
DC 50 - 4 NOK per min (32c)
DC 150+ - 4 NOK per min (16c) + 2.5 NOK per kWh (24c)

Fastned in NL just charges ridiculous flat 59c per kWh price for all type of charging.

Fortrum is still cheaper than base Ionity! And prevents any sort of hogging and overstays. It's the best model by far.

So a little example. Assume Tesla charging 15 minutes at 150 kW (ignoring the curves and all that) - will get 37 kWh in 15 minutes. Well anyway, for the sake of the maths let's say it is realistic.

Ionity 79c*37 kWh = €29.23
Fortrum = 32c*15 min + 24c*37 kWh = €13.68
Fastned = 59c*37 kWh = €21.83

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

The 150kW wont be free for long, this is a short-lived issue. Expect them to be about 1.1X-1.3X the price of the 50kW

Yeah, but as Ecars isn't really a private for-profit enterprise but a semi-state monopoly at the moment, they can set the rates as they wish and distort the market. So I suspect 1.1x will be the case...

In CZ and DE E-ON (large German electricity provider) have the per kWh prices in 1:2:3 ratio for 22 kW AC:50 kW DC:175kW DC at 12c/24c/36c. So the 175kW is 1.5x the price of 50 kW DC.

Fortrum in NO/SV/FI charges per min or per kWh & per min but the concept is similar as the German one, ratio 1:2:3 (roughly), even though it's time based, which is brilliant for utilisation (they are smart).

AC - 2 NOK per min (16c)
DC 50 - 4 NOK per min (32c)
DC 150+ - 4 NOK per min (16c) + 2.5 NOK per kWh (24c)

Fastned in NL just charges ridiculous flat 59c per kWh price for all type of charging.

AndyBoBandy

Cyrus wrote: »

its not as if someone surprised them with some 150 KW chargers :pac:

it's ecars....... so lets not rule anything out..

:D:D