30kph coming to Dublin road near you? (note warning in post #254)

Roadhawk wrote: »

Adding another 1.5 hours on to my travel time takes away from time i need for my family. Adding to 7.5 hours per week sure thats nearly an extra work day (all because of a speed limit). Keep adding, 30 hours a month or 390 hours (16.25 days) per year... To put it into perspective...in 1.5 hours you could get from Dublin to galway...Dublin to Wexford... or Dublin to the NI boarder.

Even if what you're saying was correct and the journeys were realistic (which they aren't, see my last reply), if you really wanted to put it into perspective then how many hours do you think the 5 in 10 people killed at 50km/h and the 9 in 10 killed at 60km/h loses with their families?

Roadhawk wrote: »

I can see the logic... I still don't see the sense in 30kph. As a large portion of the roads being revised for the special speed limit are 60kph... trips will take twice the time to complete if traveling at 30kph.

There were only 25km of 60km/h roads in Dublin City to start with. The road network in Dublin City is over 1200km in length. They were all small sections spread out between areas like Bluebell, Finglas and Coolock. Of that, 12km will remain at 60km/h while 13km will be reduced to 50km/h. None will be reduced to 30km/h. It's highly unlikely you'll encounter more than a few km of 60km/h roads on any journey. If you were somehow managing to drive at 60km/h for, say a 3km stretch, without slowing down or stopping (close to impossible) then it will take you an extra 30 seconds to do it at 50km/h.

Roadhawk wrote: »

I spend roughly 45 mins going to work and another 45 returning home...1.5 hours total per day travelling...if i was travelling at the suggested 30kph my travel time would at least double because the roads i take are currently comprised of 50, 60 and 80 zones.

That would be true if you were traveling at a constant 50km/h speed for 45 minutes. Which you aren't. If you were traveling at a constant 50km/h for 45 minutes, you would drive 38km which would bring you from one end of the Dublin City Council area (where the reduced speed limits are) to the other end three times. Not exactly a realistic journey.

Also, there's only one section of 80km/h road in Dublin City and it's remaining at 80km/h.

So either you haven't read the proposal properly or you're making stuff up.

Roadhawk wrote: »

spontaneously combust...? randomly blow up...? Thats quite an imagination. I should have mentioned my car does 30kph quite comfortably. I can understand it might require more work from a driver if driving a manual and again might have a random shift up or down in an automatic but EVs don't have any of those complications...smooth at every point. (im not in car sales BTW:))

The way some people are getting hysterical about it, you would think that's what's going to happen (many people over different threads are getting hysterical about not being a able to control their car at 30).

Manion wrote: »

35kmh is above the speed limit. I think thats kinda the point.

Be practical. No one will stick to 30. That's not kinda the point the point is to reduce average. But even then just do 30. That comment is for the ones that moan.

(I still don't buy that cars cannot be driven at 30 for a few kms. I have yet to sit in one, it's one of the silliest arguments I've heard).

Roadhawk wrote: »

As a large portion of the roads being revised for the special speed limit are 60kph... trips will take twice the time to complete if traveling at 30kph. I spend roughly 45 mins going to work and another 45 returning home...1.5 hours total per day travelling...if i was travelling at the suggested 30kph my travel time would at least double because the roads i take are currently comprised of 50, 60 and 80 zones. Adding another 1.5 hours on to my travel time takes away from time i need for my family. Adding to 7.5 hours per week sure thats nearly an extra work day (all because of a speed limit). Keep adding, 30 hours a month or 390 hours (16.25 days) per year...

You *do* realise the new limits will only apply in Dublin city, and not all roads are affected? If you're taking 45 minutes traveling to work at 50 or 60km/h, you're arguing against something which is not actually happening, because you're not doing that on roads that will be changed.

kenmm wrote: »

No one's saying it's not a bit if a pain, but some make out it's impossible.

It's not like everyone will be doing bang on 30 anyway. 30 is a touch too high for second then go 28, or more likely go at 35 and hold 3rd more comfortably..

35kmh is above the speed limit. I think thats kinda the point.

Roadhawk wrote: »

Yeah I suppose...should have bought local. The deals are just too attractive.

I can see the logic... I still don't see the sense in 30kph. As a large portion of the roads being revised for the special speed limit are 60kph... trips will take twice the time to complete if traveling at 30kph. I spend roughly 45 mins going to work and another 45 returning home...1.5 hours total per day travelling...if i was travelling at the suggested 30kph my travel time would at least double because the roads i take are currently comprised of 50, 60 and 80 zones. Adding another 1.5 hours on to my travel time takes away from time i need for my family. Adding to 7.5 hours per week sure thats nearly an extra work day (all because of a speed limit). Keep adding, 30 hours a month or 390 hours (16.25 days) per year... To put it into perspective...in 1.5 hours you could get from Dublin to galway...Dublin to Wexford... or Dublin to the NI boarder. Its pointless other then to annoy and deter motorists.

Your average city driving speed should be no where close to the speed limit. I'm sure your EV will give you an average speed indication. It's a non linear relationship between speed limit and progress. Depending on the roads you use a reduced speed limit could result in congestion that disproportionately delays you or you know makes very little difference. For instance I often opt to take the river road over the navan road coming into the city, lower speed limit but higher average speed.

Also, just to throw this out there, you don't have a right to get from A to B in a certain time regardless of the cost to wider society. Your need fo a 45 minute commute doesn't trump a cyclists or a pedestrians right to make it home in one piece. This is all about balancing the need of people for the most good.

I'm not judging btw, I've had penalty points for speeding and a long commute but no one wants a 50kmh speed limit outside their front door, always someone elses.

Roadhawk

magicbastarder wrote: »

you have a UK car that is primary designed around imperial units rather than metric, that's the problem there. if it had been built for a metric market, the limiter would work to 30km/h.

Yeah I suppose...should have bought local. The deals are just too attractive.

magicbastarder wrote: »

the reason for the increase in pedestrian deaths was, according to the gardai among other groups, that less traffic meant people were driving faster due to no congestion.

I can see the logic... I still don't see the sense in 30kph. As a large portion of the roads being revised for the special speed limit are 60kph... trips will take twice the time to complete if traveling at 30kph. I spend roughly 45 mins going to work and another 45 returning home...1.5 hours total per day travelling...if i was travelling at the suggested 30kph my travel time would at least double because the roads i take are currently comprised of 50, 60 and 80 zones. Adding another 1.5 hours on to my travel time takes away from time i need for my family. Adding to 7.5 hours per week sure thats nearly an extra work day (all because of a speed limit). Keep adding, 30 hours a month or 390 hours (16.25 days) per year... To put it into perspective...in 1.5 hours you could get from Dublin to galway...Dublin to Wexford... or Dublin to the NI boarder. Its pointless other then to annoy and deter motorists.

07Lapierre wrote: »

If a car can’t drive at 30kph or less, the problem is the driver, not the car.

kenmm wrote: »

I honestly don't get it - I really do estimate I have driven 100s of different vehicles over the years - I don't recall any of them refusing to drive at 20/30, spontaneously combust, randomly blow up or any other such nonsense.

kenmm wrote: »

For those that say they cannot sufficiently control a car at low speeds - it's a real worry, that you are allowed to use a car on public roads without a basic grasp of how cars work or understanding on how to drive.

spontaneously combust...? randomly blow up...? Thats quite an imagination. I should have mentioned my car does 30kph quite comfortably. I can understand it might require more work from a driver if driving a manual and again might have a random shift up or down in an automatic but EVs don't have any of those complications...smooth at every point. (im not in car sales BTW:))

Duckjob wrote: »

The whole "cars can't do 30kph" thing is just a smokescreen. The real msg is :

"I don't have the patience to drive at 30kph because I'm used to going around the place at pretty much whatever speed I want."

I kind of agree with you here...i dont really have the patience to drive at 30kph because i dont have the time to travel that slow...thats not saying I do "whatever speed i want"...clearly there are speeds suited for a road but the the "special limit" 30kph zones should be kept for road works, school areas, carparks and the likes.

Manion wrote: »

The gear thing is a real thing just badly described here. There are certain speeds at which a car is comfortable holding and other speeds where a car is looking to change down or up. These points change based petrol versus diesel, engine size, 5 gear versus 6 and even car make.

In my own car I've found that 30 kmh is the lowest speed I can drive at in 3rd and is that bit too high for 2nd. This means any slow down at all requires a gear change and the engine naturally wants to speed up.

So anyway, agree or disagree with it as an excuse, there are definitely speeds that are easier to maintain and drive at.

https://rightwaydriving.com.au/Gear-Changing-Techniques

No one's saying it's not a bit if a pain, but some make out it's impossible.

It's not like everyone will be doing bang on 30 anyway. 30 is a touch too high for second then go 28, or more likely go at 35 and hold 3rd more comfortably..

Duckjob wrote: »

The whole "cars can't do 30kph" thing is just a smokescreen. The real msg is :

"I don't have the patience to drive at 30kph because I'm used to going around the place at pretty much whatever speed I want."

The gear thing is a real thing just badly described here. There are certain speeds at which a car is comfortable holding and other speeds where a car is looking to change down or up. These points change based petrol versus diesel, engine size, 5 gear versus 6 and even car make.

In my own car I've found that 30 kmh is the lowest speed I can drive at in 3rd and is that bit too high for 2nd. This means any slow down at all requires a gear change and the engine naturally wants to speed up.

So anyway, agree or disagree with it as an excuse, there are definitely speeds that are easier to maintain and drive at.

https://rightwaydriving.com.au/Gear-Changing-Techniques

Duckjob

The whole "cars can't do 30kph" thing is just a smokescreen. The real msg is :

"I don't have the patience to drive at 30kph because I'm used to going around the place at pretty much whatever speed I want."

07Lapierre

kenmm wrote: »

I honestly don't get it - I really do estimate I have driven 100s of different vehicles over the years - I don't recall any of them refusing to drive at 20/30, spontaneously combust, randomly blow up or any other such nonsense.

For those that say they cannot sufficiently control a car at low speeds - it's a real worry, that you are allowed to use a car on public roads without a basic grasp of how cars work or understanding on how to drive.

Agree. No difference driving in 1st or 6th gear. It does require skill/experience and the driver has to pay attention to what he/she is doing. But if your trying to send a text or WhatsApp, while also pressing the Brake, steer your car etc. Then it's more complicated!

07Lapierre wrote: »

If a car can’t drive at 30kph or less, the problem is the driver, not the car.

I honestly don't get it - I really do estimate I have driven 100s of different vehicles over the years - I don't recall any of them refusing to drive at 20/30, spontaneously combust, randomly blow up or any other such nonsense.

For those that say they cannot sufficiently control a car at low speeds - it's a real worry, that you are allowed to use a car on public roads without a basic grasp of how cars work or understanding on how to drive.

07Lapierre

magicbastarder wrote: »

you have a UK car that is primary designed around imperial units rather than metric, that's the problem there. if it had been built for a metric market, the limiter would work to 30km/h.

the reason for the increase in pedestrian deaths was, according to the gardai among other groups, that less traffic meant people were driving faster due to no congestion.

Yep, less car’s travelling faster on roads that had more pedestrians/ cyclists.

07Lapierre

Roadhawk wrote: »

What on earth is happening here??? 30km "special limit" being rolled out as if it were the solution to all transport problems. Its clearly another tactic to drive motorists nuts and encourage them to walk, cycle and/or get public transport. I see loads posted on boards.ie about people in petrol or diesel vehicles having issues driving at low speeds but Im driving a modern EV (EQC) at the moment...UK import. It has a speed limiter the stops at 20mph (33kph)...thats 10% above the special limit? Cars are not built to crawl. 30kph is farce. Im glad to see that AGS are not enforcing it and i dont think anyone should be driving that slow. The 30 limit was initially rolled out to increase safety for pedestrians, cyclists and locals to the area but this year alone has shown an increase (double in April YTD) in pedestrian deaths on the road despite a huge decrease in vehicle activity due to the COVID situation.

If a car can’t drive at 30kph or less, the problem is the driver, not the car.

re the 'cars are not built to crawl' - maybe people should stop driving them in heavy traffic so.

Roadhawk wrote: »

Im driving a modern EV (EQC) at the moment...UK import. It has a speed limiter the stops at 20mph (33kph)

you have a UK car that is primary designed around imperial units rather than metric, that's the problem there. if it had been built for a metric market, the limiter would work to 30km/h.

the reason for the increase in pedestrian deaths was, according to the gardai among other groups, that less traffic meant people were driving faster due to no congestion.

Roadhawk

What on earth is happening here??? 30km "special limit" being rolled out as if it were the solution to all transport problems. Its clearly another tactic to drive motorists nuts and encourage them to walk, cycle and/or get public transport. I see loads posted on boards.ie about people in petrol or diesel vehicles having issues driving at low speeds but Im driving a modern EV (EQC) at the moment...UK import. It has a speed limiter the stops at 20mph (33kph)...thats 10% above the special limit? Cars are not built to crawl. 30kph is farce. Im glad to see that AGS are not enforcing it and i dont think anyone should be driving that slow. The 30 limit was initially rolled out to increase safety for pedestrians, cyclists and locals to the area but this year alone has shown an increase (double in April YTD) in pedestrian deaths on the road despite a huge decrease in vehicle activity due to the COVID situation.

yep, that's my understanding. a case of if a driver is stopped, they cannot prove the driver has driven past one of the signs.

magicbastarder wrote: »

AGS are not enforcing the current 30km/h limits:

Also - If I am reading #11 correctly, they cannot enforce the 5 axle ban unless they witness an HGV driving past the sign?

That's hilarious..

AGS are not enforcing the current 30km/h limits:

https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1301528624978440192

MJohnston wrote: »

Most of my supportive submission on this was, and I think I’ve said this earlier in the thread, that the best way to enforce these new speed limits is to redesign the roads to make them inherently slower.

Road diets, as far as the eye can see, please.

I'm not sure that's feasible given the area in scope. Seems like it would require dramatic investment at a time when even putting up signage of the existing limits seems not to be a priority.

MJohnston

Most of my supportive submission on this was, and I think I’ve said this earlier in the thread, that the best way to enforce these new speed limits is to redesign the roads to make them inherently slower.

Road diets, as far as the eye can see, please.

Infini

Duckjob wrote: »

The distance from O'Connell bridge to the top (furthest) part of Gardiner St is 1.3km.

Anyone who thinks a 50kph limit is appropriate on a street that close to the city centre needs their head examined.

Could say the same for those who want to ram arbitrary limits onto wide isle roads and main roads with no consideration for actual infrastructure or the fact this will be widely ignored expecially in the face of majority opposition to it.

Fact is the priority should be on improving infrastructure and traffic flow not lazy and half arsed solutions which wont be enforced properly anyways.

There may be a push at the start but, no, it won't be widely enforced. No road traffic laws are.

However, it will bring the average speeds down. The average speed on urban arterial 50km/h roads now is 54km/h. If everyone still breaks the 30km/h speed limit but slows down enough so that the average speed is in the 40s, we still benefit. It can be lowered further with design changes which must come after the speed limit change.

Lowering the speed limits won't fix everything but it will set us on the right path. That's all it is.

Manion wrote: »

How will people be informed about these new speed limits

the new speed limit signs that will be installed, at a rough guess.

Manion wrote: »

how will it be enforced?

it almost certainly won't be.

magicbastarder wrote: »

most of the wide straight roads won't have the reductions.
https://www.dublincity.ie/speedreview

if you click on the map, it'll download a high res PDF for you.

The thing I found most surprising about this are the areas that are already 30kmh, I know I was ignorant of it. How will people be informed about these new speed limits and how will it be enforced?