jm08 wrote: » 186 children (according to book Children of the Troubles) under the age of 16 were killed during the troubles. British Army / RUC killed 48 of them (such as 2 year old killed by CS gas thrown into his house, or another child run over by a Saracen Tank, to a child with learning disabilities being shot by the BA when he ran away from British soldiers). The PIRA always tried to send warnings that bombs were going to go off. Sometimes the British Security forces acted on these warnings, sometimes they did not. In the case of the Warrington bombs, the police said they did not get a warning, whereas the PIRA said they also contacted the Samaritans. The supposedly normal people in NI (loyalists) killed 50 children. The abnormal republican groups killed 80 children. Now, totting up the casualties, that would British State forces 98; Republicans 80. I think the British State wins the murdering children headcount.
downcow wrote: » Pretty disgusting, naive, and bigoted post. You should be ashamed when you reread it, but I guess you won’t be
jm08 wrote: » Well maybe you could explain why its disgusting, naive and bigoted please so that I will be ashamed when I reread it?
RobMc59 wrote: » I found your comments about the Warrington bombing particularly nauseating,you blamed the Police and attempted to minimalize the actions of the murderous terrorists-shame on you jm08.
FrancieBrady wrote: » The sickening thing is that after a 30+ year conflict/war that we are still remembering selected victims, i.e. we are using victims for whatever political slant we have. Happens here on a nauseatingly regular basis. There is a 'list' of selected victims to be picked from. Another 12 year old boy died the day the boys in Warrington died, but nobody ever mentions him. You have to ask why, over 20 years after the conflict/war ended? *You'll have to google him, no doubt, and that is to your shame.
RobMc59 wrote: » All fatalities during the troubles are a tragedy.I singled the Warrington bombing out as jm08 tried to shift blame from the murderous terrorists to the police which is what I found nauseating,the same thing happened over the recent tragedy in Derry which then resulted in murderous terrorists trying to blame the police for being there.
FrancieBrady wrote: » All players in the conflict/war have their share of the blame. If the police are lying about warnings that would just show again that they were players. Nobody is trying to 'shift' blame. When you send soldiers out on urban streets mandated and armed with lethal weapons and people die then blame attaches. Same as if you explode bombs in urban places then blame attaches if innocents die.
RobMc59 wrote: » We've gone over this on numerous occasions francie,how you can compare legitimate state representatives to terrorists is the sticking point. I'd acknowledge you may see IRA operatives as soldiers but how can you justify planting bombs outside a McDonald's and argos in a busy shopping centre and portray them as 'brave freedom fighters '?Its the same as the people responsible for the recent tragic events in Derry trying to blame the PSNI.These actions cause revulsion in any sane person,regardless of religion.I actually agree with a fair bit of your view of things but your insistence of trying to defend the indefensible is your achilles heel.
markodaly wrote: » What blame can you put on Lyra McKee, Francie?
FrancieBrady wrote: » You seriously think I am 'blaming' innocent victims mark...wow you are desperate to find an angle aren't you.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Without going past the first sentence and getting into it again...I and nationalists did not see them as 'legitimate'. They were the 'terrorists' to us along with loyalists. And the body count of innocents on their side bears that out.
'THE IRA did not kill Johnathan Ball in my name or in your name. I want to tell the world tonight they did not kill him in the name of Ireland. There's nothing wrong with being emotional about a little baby's death. I feel horror, revulsion and sadness. But that's not enough. Tonight I feel anger. 'I feel angry and frustrated because the political will is not there to end the violence. We've listened too long to rhetoric with no results. Sincere people will say everything has been tried. Maybe it's time it was looked at from a different angle. Maybe it's time we asked for UN troops and independent arbitrators from Europe or the outside world.' Susan McHugh, Irish mother who organised last week's rally against the IRA and today's peace rally in Dublin. 'The woman leading the peace moves in Dublin is very sincere and deserves the height of praise. The sympathy for the Warrington parents is very good and warming and I share it. But this could all have an adverse effect. The politics of the last atrocity is a very bad basis for a peace movement. Next week there could be Catholic children burnt in their beds in Belfast . . . Will there be flowers for them? There have been so many children killed here, wtih plastic bullets and so on, and nobody in Dublin sent flowers. You must have parity of protest, parity of sympathy, parity of compassion. We could have done with some of that sympathy. You can't have a partial peace movement.' Fr Denis Faul, Tyrone priest and IRA critic.
jm08 wrote: » No one trusted the police, least of all the PIRA. Thats why they phoned warnings to Police and Samaritans because sometimes the police didn't act on the warnings.
markodaly wrote: » You are on record blaming partition alone for the murder of Lyra McKee, not the New IRA.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Even of that trite nonsense were true
FrancieBrady wrote: » No. The harsh reality here is as it has always been. There will be no peace in Ireland until we deal with partition.
markodaly wrote: » Do you have any actual evidence to this fact, or is that a nice convenient line to try and get someone else apart from the PIRA to shoulder the blame when innocent people were murdered?
jm08 wrote: » What I pointed out is that it wasn't in the interests of the PIRA to kill children (and it certainly wasn't in the Warrington Bombing). No one trusted the police, least of all the PIRA. Thats why they phoned warnings to Police and Samaritans because sometimes the police didn't act on the warnings. You may claim that the UK police and security forces are above reproach. That has not been the experience of Irish people. For example, what happened to the Guildford Four and Bermingham Six. Then you have the refusal of the British State to be open about the Dublin & Monaghan Bombings. The reason they won't do that is that the British State is up to their neck in it. I also quoted Fr. Denis Faul on the Warrington Boys which demonstrates exactly what I think (which includes that all these deaths should have been avoided).https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/the-angry-south-the-weary-north-irish-people-voice-their-feelings-on-the-horrors-of-the-iras-1500451.html
markodaly wrote: » Oh, its true alright. Classic victim-blaming exhibit (a) I asked you a simple question about Lyra McKee and you want to have a philosophical discussion about conflicts and war. Whataboutery at its finest. I guess the PSNI are really to blame anyway for her murder. :rolleyes:
RobMc59 wrote: » If you plant bombs to detonate in a shopping centre on a Saturday afternoon who do you think will be the casualties?
jm08 wrote: » Self evident. Why would the PIRA phone the Samaritans as well as the Police?
FrancieBrady wrote: » That is not victim blaming and that is not excusing violence. Time to start debating like an adult mark.
markodaly wrote: » It actually is. It's akin to blaming women wearing short skirts for being raped. No skirt, no rape No partition, no murder Same logic.
RobMc59 wrote: » Francie,I'm from the UK and want to be defended by the police and armed forces from those I and my fellow like minded UK citizens (wherever they may live in the UK)view as terrorists.I wouldn't expect to have a say in how things are run in Ireland-neither should you. And this bit isn't aimed at you francie,its aimed at 'billy no mates'.Don't you ever critise someone who is nauseated by 'brave freedom fighters 'planting bombs in a busy shopping precinct then trying to blame the police when children are killed.
markodaly wrote: » So you have no evidence of your claim?
