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DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

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LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

That is from a 2018 report and they now seem to be considering different options.

From what others have said, they seem to be now considering:
- Hazelhatch to Spencer Dock (All trains except the 4 that go to Hueston).
- Maynooth/M4 - All trains go to Connolly, either terminate at Connolly or cross river.
- Northern Line - All trains go to Connolly, either terminate at Connolly or cross river.

Of course that may change again before the project all goes live.

Yes, I agree. The Spencer Dock station looks quiet different in the pictures shown on the current DART+ site, versus the pics in the 2018 report. So I think it will possibly be more substantial. Bigger station building, 3 platform islands, etc.

I am probably being a bit pedantic here, but in all of your recent posts, you are misspelling the name of Dublin Heuston Station.

It is not Hueston, but rather Heuston, named after Seán Heuston.

I wouldn't normally pull anyone up on grammar/misspelling, but getting a location name right is a little bit more important.

LXFlyer wrote: »

I am probably being a bit pedantic here, but in all of your recent posts, you are misspelling the name of Dublin Heuston Station.

It is not Hueston, but rather Heuston, named after Seán Heuston.

I wouldn't normally pull anyone up on grammar/misspelling, but getting a location name right is a little bit more important.

LOL, no worries at all, thanks for the correction.

I have Philips Hue (Smart lights) on the brain at the moment, most be bleeding over!

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

That does not solve the issue of inner stopping DART services holding up outer semi-fast DART services between Connolly and Clongriffin and forcing them to crawl.

You still need the ability to overtake on the northern line between Connolly and Howth Junction in either direction as I outlined above.

I wasn't aware of any proposal to run limited stop darts to Drogheda. Is that in the consultation document? I had assumed every DART from Drogheda would stop at every stop.

SeanW

LXFlyer wrote: »

That does not solve the issue of inner stopping DART services holding up outer semi-fast DART services between Connolly and Clongriffin and forcing them to crawl.

You still need the ability to overtake on the northern line between Connolly and Howth Junction in either direction as I outlined above.

I would imagine that express services could use the "new" line.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

I wasn't aware of any proposal to run limited stop darts to Drogheda. Is that in the consultation document? I had assumed every DART from Drogheda would stop at every stop.

You've making the basic error that DART means stopping everywhere.

Just think about what you are saying for a minute.

Leaving aside the CoVid situation, DART is overloaded as it is coming from Malahide/Howth, as are the outer suburban services before they reach Malahide.

There wouldn't be a hope of anyone from inner stations getting on if you stopped them everywhere.

That's even before you think of the extended journey times that you would be imposing on outer suburban passengers. It would be a journey from hell.

There will be separate DART services - inner suburban and outer suburban like they are now - it is just that the outer services are going to be electrified. There has never been a suggestion that the 10 minute DART would operate to/from Drogheda.

That has always been the plan.

The consultation is only on the Western line right now.

LXFlyer

SeanW wrote: »

I would imagine that express services could use the "new" line.

I'm not talking about express services here.

I am talking about the outer suburban services on the Northern Line which will be electrified.

There will be a mix of inner stopping services, and outer suburban services. To deliver effective operations you need the ability to overtake between Connolly and Howth Junction. Extra tracks between north of Clontarf Road and Raheny really are a necessity.

Pete_Cavan

LXFlyer wrote: »

You've making the basic error that DART means stopping everywhere.

Just think about what you are saying for a minute.

Leaving aside the CoVid situation, DART is overloaded as it is coming from Malahide/Howth, as are the outer suburban services before they reach Malahide.

There wouldn't be a hope of anyone from inner stations getting on if you stopped them everywhere.

That's even before you think of the extended journey times that you would be imposing on outer suburban passengers. It would be a journey from hell.

There will be separate DART services - inner suburban and outer suburban like they are now - it is just that the outer services are going to be electrified. There has never been a suggestion that the 10 minute DART would operate to/from Drogheda.

That has always been the plan.

The consultation is only on the Western line right now.

It's fine now as a project name but I really hope they don't call the limited stop outer services DART as well. It would just cause confusion with people having to check they are getting on the right DART train. Imagine someone hoping on a DART to go to Killester, then the train doesn't stop until Clongriffin or further north. DART should stay as is as far as Malahide (or a station or two further north if they provide better turnback facilities there) and leave the limited stop trains as commuter or some other name. It needs to be kept simple.

Zebra3

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It's fine now as a project name but I really hope they don't call the limited stop outer services DART as well. It would just cause confusion with people having to check they are getting on the right DART train. Imagine someone hoping on a DART to go to Killester, then the train doesn't stop until Clongriffin or further north. DART should stay as is as far as Malahide (or a station or two further north if they provide better turnback facilities there) and leave the limited stop trains as commuter or some other name. It needs to be kept simple.

You just give each service a different route number.

Works fine in the Copenhagen area.

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

You've making the basic error that DART means stopping everywhere.

Just think about what you are saying for a minute.

Leaving aside the CoVid situation, DART is overloaded as it is coming from Malahide/Howth, as are the outer suburban services before they reach Malahide.

There wouldn't be a hope of anyone from inner stations getting on if you stopped them everywhere.

That's even before you think of the extended journey times that you would be imposing on outer suburban passengers. It would be a journey from hell.

There will be separate DART services - inner suburban and outer suburban like they are now - it is just that the outer services are going to be electrified. There has never been a suggestion that the 10 minute DART would operate to/from Drogheda.

That has always been the plan.

The consultation is only on the Western line right now.

I'm just curious have you read this information somewhere regarding express DARTS from further stations or is it something you think will happen? I'm not saying it's a bad thing or anything just want to clarify where this comes from.

If there were a separate high speed line for Dublin to Belfast then commuter trains that do Dundalk-Drogheda-Airport-Heuston would use the high speed line, in fact all Dublin to Belfast trains may use this stopping pattern, so in that scenario it's only Balbriggan to Dublin that would be relying on stopping DART services and even then if you lived in Balbriggan you'd probably take the DART out to Drogheda and an express train to Dublin. Extending metrolink to interchange with the DART at some point north east of Swords would further alleviate the capacity situation on the existing northern line.

spacetweek

At Ashtown wouldn't an overbridge from the new developments north of the line connecting with Martin Savage Park to the south be easier?

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm just curious have you read this information somewhere regarding express DARTS from further stations or is it something you think will happen? I'm not saying it's a bad thing or anything just want to clarify where this comes from.

If there were a separate high speed line for Dublin to Belfast then commuter trains that do Dundalk-Drogheda-Airport-Heuston would use the high speed line, in fact all Dublin to Belfast trains may use this stopping pattern, so in that scenario it's only Balbriggan to Dublin that would be relying on stopping DART services and even then if you lived in Balbriggan you'd probably take the DART out to Drogheda and an express train to Dublin. Extending metrolink to interchange with the DART at some point north east of Swords would further alleviate the capacity situation on the existing northern line.

Various talks given at various times by senior IE management including the CEO have always clarified that there would be inner stopping and outer semi-fast services. It is also best operational practice.

A high speed line is nothing to do with this project, and is only a vague notion, so let's leave that to another thread. This is about DART +.

DART + needs the appropriate infrastructure in place to allow it to happen and operate effectively. That will require additional infrastructure in the form of extra tracks. That penny has already sunk in with the IE CEO.

IE 222

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It's fine now as a project name but I really hope they don't call the limited stop outer services DART as well. It would just cause confusion with people having to check they are getting on the right DART train. Imagine someone hoping on a DART to go to Killester, then the train doesn't stop until Clongriffin or further north. DART should stay as is as far as Malahide (or a station or two further north if they provide better turnback facilities there) and leave the limited stop trains as commuter or some other name. It needs to be kept simple.

What??

Come on now, Dart is a brand not a route.

If this was to be the case we would need to rename every train service in the country. How do people manage to get on the right commuter trains in Connolly or differentiate between a Howth or Malahide service.

IE 222

This high speed line is not going to happen nor is it necessary. Your looking at a figure of around €15 billion (plus whatever € to purchase land) to serve a line that's already served. That €15 billion would upgrade the current network to "high speed" along with opening more new lines both north and south.

All the northern line needs is quad track out of Dublin and Belfast. Upgrade the line and stock for 125mph running and the journey time would be stripped to about 75mins allowing for stops along the way.

125mph throughout would be a perfect "high speed" for Ireland. We don't need anything fancy and it can be laid on the current permanent way with relatively minor upgrades in comparison to an actual high speed network. Most routes are 175 miles or less over here. That's 90 mins or less for most intercity journeys to or form Dublin.

Geuze

Yes, I don't think our size or population will justify 300 kph routes.

200kph is fine, with average speeds including stops at least 130-150 kph.

Dublin-Cork 266km = 2hrs incl stops
Dublin-Belfast 1h30

Geuze

A query about the planned DART+ to Maynooth and M3.

Is there enough planned capacity for:

Sligo diesels 1 tph
Maynooth DART - is it 4tph?
Navan - future EMU, say 2tph, with 4tph after Dunboyne?

That's 9tph arriving into Glasnevin, excl the PPT services.

All possible?

L1011

Geuze wrote: »

A query about the planned DART+ to Maynooth and M3.

Is there enough planned capacity for:

Sligo diesels 1 tph
Maynooth DART - is it 4tph?
Navan - future EMU, say 2tph, with 4tph after Dunboyne?

That's 9tph arriving into Glasnevin, excl the PPT services.

All possible?

The plan is for 16tph peak coming through Glasnevin from the Maynooth side and 12tph from the PPT as far as I remember.

All the basic service pattern stuff is in the annexes

Effects

lucernarian wrote: »

There would not be 25 metres needed for a third track, and a lot of space is available to one side (clontarf golf course as an obvious example).

What are the chances of getting land from a golf club though?

L1011

Easier than CPOing housing.

IE 222

Geuze wrote: »

A query about the planned DART+ to Maynooth and M3.

Is there enough planned capacity for:

Sligo diesels 1 tph
Maynooth DART - is it 4tph?
Navan - future EMU, say 2tph, with 4tph after Dunboyne?

That's 9tph arriving into Glasnevin, excl the PPT services.

All possible?

Getting into Connolly is the problem. I'm not so such altering track work around Connolly is going to be sufficient enough.

They really need an 8th platform maybe they have a way of including it as part of the plans but it doesn't seem to be specifically mentioned. IE want to build it so don't see why they wouldn't ask for it to be included if their going to the bother of upgrading Connolly.

Pete_Cavan

IE 222 wrote: »

What??

Come on now, Dart is a brand not a route.

If this was to be the case we would need to rename every train service in the country. How do people manage to get on the right commuter trains in Connolly or differentiate between a Howth or Malahide service.

Yes, DART is the brand for regular stop services in the Dublin area. It already covers multiple routes, as with Howth and Malahide. Two more regular stop services in the Dublin area are to be added to west Dublin, putting those routes under the DART brand is consistent and makes sense. Adding an intermittent stopping service travelling 50km out from Dublin city centre doesn't make sense. Imagine explaining to someone to take the DART but make sure to get the inner stopping DART not the outer semi-fast DART. Is DART just the brand name for electrified lines now? Or can we put all commuter services into Dublin under DART as well, regardless of the service pattern they operate? Keeping DART in the Dublin area (as per the name) with regular stops and having another name for intermittent stop services from further out would make more sense.

Zebra3

Have a look at the map in there, it's not overly difficult for people to work it out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-train_(Copenhagen)

AngryLips

Geuze wrote: »

Navan - future EMU, say 2tph, with 4tph after Dunboyne?

I would imagine if Navan ever goes ahead, it would be built as Dart from the get-go. It's similar distance to the city as Drogheda and probably with fewer intermediate stops.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yes, DART is the brand for regular stop services in the Dublin area.

Says who?

Shedite27

Effects wrote: »

What are the chances of getting land from a golf club though?

I realise we're all in "what-if-land" here but back in Celtic Tiger each member of that Golf Club had their eyes on a €125k each for the sale of the whole premises. A lot of members sill have notions of this type of thing happening, so thy wouldn't go cheap

MaccaTacca

How long will it take a DART to go from Connolly to Drogheda? It takes the Greystones DART 50 minutes to go 27km, according to Google Maps Drogheda is 47kms from Connolly.

I know this is opening up a different can of worms entirely, but the current DART service as it is, is painfully slow.

Take Bray to Pearse for example, thats a distance of 19km but takes almost 40 minutes to complete. A similar service in Europe or the UK would take 20 minutes max.

Will these new expansions mean that services are even slower for the existing lines?

cgcsb

MaccaTacca wrote: »

How long will it take a DART to go from Connolly to Drogheda? It takes the Greystones DART 50 minutes to go 27km, according to Google Maps Drogheda is 47kms from Connolly.

I know this is opening up a different can of worms entirely, but the current DART service as it is, is painfully slow.

Take Bray to Pearse for example, thats a distance of 19km but takes almost 40 minutes to complete. A similar service in Europe or the UK would take 20 minutes max.

Will these new expansions mean that services are even slower for the existing lines?

Yes, unless there are express services from the further stops as discussed above.

LXFlyer

MaccaTacca wrote: »

How long will it take a DART to go from Connolly to Drogheda? It takes the Greystones DART 50 minutes to go 27km, according to Google Maps Drogheda is 47kms from Connolly.

I know this is opening up a different can of worms entirely, but the current DART service as it is, is painfully slow.

Take Bray to Pearse for example, thats a distance of 19km but takes almost 40 minutes to complete. A similar service in Europe or the UK would take 20 minutes max.

Will these new expansions mean that services are even slower for the existing lines?

Quoting hypothetical journey times while not actually looking at what sort of service is operated and what sort of infrastructure is in place is pointless.

Pearse to Bray is a two track railway, with no overtaking facilities.

DART is operated as an all stations stopping suburban service from Pearse to Bray, with 14 intermediate stops at a frequency of every 10 minutes. A similar service in Europe or the UK certainly would not take 20 minutes max. You are comparing apples with oranges.

With a clear track, a non-stop a train could get Pearse to Bray in just under 20 minutes. But that isn't realistic as there is no real scope for adding extra tracks and overtaking (except perhaps if Dun Laoghaire were to be remodelled), and intermediate stations still need to be served.

Without seeing detailed proposed service patterns and stopping patterns, no one can answer your question in detail regarding the Northern Line.

What I will say is that the current commuter train journey times from Connolly to Drogheda vary between 54 minutes and an hour.

You will get some improvement in journey times on outer suburban services between Malahide and Drogheda from the improved acceleration that electric trains deliver, but the journey time between Connolly and Malahide on such services won't see any great improvement unless they can overtake the stopping all stations DART in front of them between Connolly and Howth Junction.

Hence the need for additional tracks to facilitate overtaking between north of Clontarf Road and Raheny.

MJohnston

On this DART naming thing, the weirdest thing for me about having a DART to Drogheda is in the name. Drogheda isn't even in the Greater Dublin Area!

loyatemu

MaccaTacca wrote: »

How long will it take a DART to go from Connolly to Drogheda? It takes the Greystones DART 50 minutes to go 27km, according to Google Maps Drogheda is 47kms from Connolly.

I know this is opening up a different can of worms entirely, but the current DART service as it is, is painfully slow.

Take Bray to Pearse for example, thats a distance of 19km but takes almost 40 minutes to complete. A similar service in Europe or the UK would take 20 minutes max.

Will these new expansions mean that services are even slower for the existing lines?

the south eastern line is very slow due to the track being very curved in places (e.g between Dun Laoghaire and Sandycove where the limit is something ridiculous like 20mph), there's also a lot of stations.

Time to Drogheda will depend on the top speed of the new rolling stock and the stopping pattern; it won't necessarily be slower than the existing commuter service.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes, unless there are express services from the further stops as discussed above.

Operating a mix of stopping (inner) and semi-fast (outer) services has always been the plan.

I don't know where you got the notion that all stations would be served by every train from Connolly to Drogheda, but I can only assume that you presumed that because the project name included "DART", that this would be the case.

But such a journey could add at least 10 minutes to the current journey time between Connolly and Drogheda and simply would not have the capacity to carry everyone. That isn't a runner.

The question is where will the interchange between the two services happen.

Sam Russell

The NTA decided some time ago that all DARTS stop at all stations.

Now it would make sense for, say, Greystones trains to stop at Bray, DL, Blackrock, Sydney Parade, Lansdowne, GCD, Pearse, etc. The problem would come from the stopping train in front. Such patterns would only be possible if there were passing loops or third rails at various points on the line.

What is needed is faster transit - your know, the RAPID bit in the name. We have the same with LUAS crawling through town at walking pace which is ironic given the name. The rail based transit should be based on networks of routes that provide fast transit with flexible routes rather than fixed single lines. It should be possible to plan a minimum change or change free route for many of the common start and end points. Metrolink will of course help with this

The current proposals are all centred on An Lar type thinking. Not everyone is going to An Lar. In fact where is An Lar anymore?