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PHIL HOGAN NEEDS TO RESIGN.

Mrcaramelchoc

I for one want him gone.

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Hawthorn Tree

Laois_Man wrote: »

I dont believe for a second Varadkar wants Hogan fired. It's just PR

Martin wouldn't mind it - if it gave him the chance to put a FFer into a commission office of equivalent seniority. But that probably wouldn't happen.

Leo will look very foolish if Phil doesn't go. He will regret calling for him to consider his position so early.

lawrencesummers

I wonder how happy they other 78 people are that big Phil, Calleary and Jerry are taking 99% of the flack for this.

First Up

Loafing Oaf wrote:

I'd say he doesn't much care either way. Priority for both himself and Martin right now is to assuage public fury over Golfgate. If they feel that requires telling UVDL straight out they've lost confidence in Big Phil and want him sacked then that's what they'll do. At that point they can wash their hands of Phil and tell Joe Public they've done everything in their power to hold him to account.

They are (rightly) more concerned about protecting our interests in EU-UK trade negotiations.

Hogan isn't indispensable but there's a reason an Irishman got the job and I'm pretty sure he will keep it.

fly_agaric

caveat emptor wrote: »

People don't underand that it is the commission that originates legislation. They come up with the rules. In a normal parliament / government it is the parliament.

As I said, "people" hear about this stuff (the different bodies that make up the EU and a 1 liner on the roles they have etc.) in school. Unless it has changed since I was young, which I doubt, as the EU has only gotten more powerful & important since then (which of course drives that anger with it too from people who've written the whole lot off as a bad job/against the natural order of things...).
Are you Irish? Or even European?
The EU is not a country, it will not (cannot?) have exactly the same structures as one.

caveat emptor wrote: »

The EU parliament can only rubber stamp legislation much like our own president.
So it's called a commission but it's really an unelected parliament. The parliament is the senate.

It can and does reject legislation afaik and can remove the Commission so is not just a "rubber stamp".
Edit: Your own diagram mentions EU parliament amending legislative proposals from the commission too.
The commission, in my non expert understanding is not a parliament but is a cross/mashup of roles of senior civil servants and a cabinet.
Edit: that understanding agrees with the "EU government" quote of Verhofstedt.

Comparing the EU parliament to our senate is a bit of a joke. Our senate is mostly appointed by the ruling parties/winners of the elections for the Dail and the rest of it I think in a limited/dubious franchise election so it really is a "rubber stamp" as you put it.

I believe some countries do appoint unelected people to ministries even if Ireland does not, or they may have "list" type systems where someone who nobody actually voted for can get a ministry.

caveat emptor wrote: »

Really? I even highlighted it. He is literally is involved in writing EU Law that the whole of the EU has to adhere, not the parliament. Yet he can flout the law in member states and have no repercussions?

Oh, so pointing out what the Commission does was some sort of gotcha?
He does not have "no repercussions". We cannot and our elected reps. cannot remove him, but that is not the same thing.
You or others saying it is does not make it so.

Gooey Looey

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1298201378951749632

Loafing Oaf

Laois_Man wrote: »

I dont believe for a second Varadkar wants Hogan fired. It's just PR

I'd say he doesn't much care either way. Priority for both himself and Martin right now is to assuage public fury over Golfgate. If they feel that requires telling UVDL straight out they've lost confidence in Big Phil and want him sacked then that's what they'll do. At that point they can wash their hands of Phil and tell Joe Public they've done everything in their power to hold him to account.

Muahahaha

McMurphy wrote: »

I must have missed it yesterday with all the comings and goings, but I just heard on Newstalk that it has been revealed that Phil stayed in Kildare the night before leaving for Brussels too?

yeah, its come out that he staying in the K Club for a second night when he got back from Clifden and before he hightailed it to Brussels last Saturday morning

mick087 wrote: »

I would be one of those who would like to see Mobile phone use when driving be treated like drink driving.
I was a witness to an accident a few years ago because someone was using a mobile when driving. Thankfully no one died but it made me think.
I know its not popular but it should be treated very serious manner.

+1 on this and the Gardai need to get real about applying discretion to people who are caught using a phone when driving. Not to be up on a high horse because we've all done it in the past but hopefully most are copping on. But if the Gardai are letting people off with discretion then they'll just do it again. Give them three points with them having to tell their insurance company and they're a lot less likely to do it again.

You see it all over the place driving along on dual carriageways and motorways. The car in front in lane 1 starts to drift either onto the hard shoulder or into lane 2. The driver is barreling along at 100kph and their eyes are going road-phone-road-phone as they type out text messages. Then the car tyres hits the catseyes, the driver gets a fright and swerves back to the centre of their lane.

Im often on a motorbike and when the m50 backs up and goes down to stop start traffic Im filtering to get past them and when you pass cars you see loads of people using their phone to read news or watch videos. When its winter and dark you see the glow of the phones back light on their faces. Then one of them will drive into the back of another car and the traffic jam is made even worse as a lane is blocked up.

The Gardai need to get more serious on it because it can be fatal or cause serious injuries. From the article this is the current RSA campaign running on radio

“Imagine the damaging road message drivers are getting today. Road safety need not apply to the powers that be,” said Susan Gray of the road safety group Parc. “This is happening time and time again and we are thoroughly fed up with it.”

Garda Headquarters said on Monday, “without commenting on any specific incident”, that gardaí can use discretion in such matters and that this is provided for in the Garda code of ethics.This appears to somewhat clash with the current campaign from the Road Safety Authority, whose radio advertisements warn: “There’s no legal limit for mobile phone use. No ifs, no buts, no excuses.”

But then the Gardai are giving discretion. Its black and white and if you get caught I cant see any good reason for offering discretion.

caveat emptor

Here's how it works at EU level. In many ways the golf game and dinner was part of the process.
See what it says at the top? Lobby the EU commision

Here's how it works at Irish level.

caveat emptor

fly_agaric wrote: »

So now he is "Ireland's" commissioner?
Who nominated him? Germany? A central argument for keeping him is that he wears the green jersey.

I'm not sure what point of that piece you inserted about what the Commission is or the quote from Guy Verhofstadt is?

Really? I even highlighted it. He is literally is involved in writing EU Law that the whole of the EU has to adhere, not the parliament. Yet he can flout the law in member states and have no repercussions?

People don't underand that it is the commission that originates legislation. They come up with the rules. In a normal parliament / government it is the parliament.

The EU parliament can only rubber stamp legislation much like our own president.
So it's called a commission but it's really an unelected parliament. The parliament is the senate.

It's by design. My point is that when a commissioner clearly breaks the rules and should be held to account we see that there is no mechanism for the people to do so.

That's my point as well you know.

caveat emptor wrote: »

We are not trying to remove a German commissioner.
Don't equate the two.
He is a representative of this country no matter what his office.
They write the rules that the whole EU has to live by. Not the eu parliament.

The Commission differs from the other institutions in that it alone has legislative initiative in the EU. Only the Commission can make formal proposals for legislation: they cannot originate in the legislative branches.

Laois_Man

Hurrache wrote: »

That's not how it works.

Which is what I said.

Hurrache

Laois_Man wrote: »

Martin wouldn't mind it - if it gave him the chance to put a FFer into a commission office of equivalent seniority. But that probably wouldn't happen.

That's not how it works.

First Up

elperello wrote:

Can't help it, I grew up worrying about grown ups and now I am one I worry even more

Fortunately we usually manage to elect enough grown ups to keep things going, despite the efforts of some.

elperello

First Up wrote: »

Don't worry. The grown ups understand that.

Can't help it, I grew up worrying about grown ups and now I am one I worry even more

elperello

landofthetree wrote: »

Virtually all of the government TDs or other opposition TDs can't name any commissioner bar Phil Hogan.

FFS. Why dont they follow EU issues?

Is that based on some research or a survey?

In my experience they are mostly on the ball when it comes to agriculture or any availability of funding.

The more detailed issues of EU policy they may be weak on.

Laois_Man

Deleted User wrote: »

Pat Kenny interviewing European Union journalist based in Brussels this morning.
He was more or saying it was laughable Ireland trying to get the EU Commissioner fired from his job. He is employed by the EU and is based there. They only get fired for corruption and bribery, embezzlement of funds etc like the Maltese commissioner Dalli in 2012 for fraud and bribery....... far bigger offences than going to a golf dinner.

I dont believe for a second Varadkar wants Hogan fired. It's just PR

Martin wouldn't mind it - if it gave him the chance to put a FFer into a commission office of equivalent seniority. But that probably wouldn't happen.

fly_agaric

caveat emptor wrote: »

We are not trying to remove a German commissioner.
Don't equate the two.
He is a representative of this country no matter what his office.

He has undermined the whole commission's work and structures.

The mobile phone is bad but the lack of judgement and a golf dinner with wealthy donors / politicians /judges is much more damning.

People are angry and they don't understand. A lot people's reaction could be **** the EU tsars. One rule for them, one rule for us.

Legislative initiative[edit]
The Commission differs from the other institutions in that it alone has legislative initiative in the EU. Only the Commission can make formal proposals for legislation: they cannot originate in the legislative branches.

So now he is "Ireland's" commissioner?
Many (can't recall if you were one) have argued here that (for example) it doesn't actually matter that the Trade commmisioner (Hogan) is Irish for purposes of Brexit etc. as he is an EU representative and will handle EU dealings with the UK according to the collective interest and good of the EU single market as a whole without giving undue/unfair weight to Irish matters.

That is a point, even if I think it is a bit of a binary/limited way of looking at it.
Maybe it stems for our Irish concept of the politician's main role as a fixer for getting stuff for his "clients" in the local area (and if they are not doing that or prevented from doing that by ethics what use are they to us!)
However you cannot now say he is the Irish commissioner and we have some unique hold over him or what we think should have more weight on deciding his fate.

If the rest of the Commission/the EU president are unhappy with him (which may be the case if there are issues of "ethics" involved here, particularly if what he has told them is evasive) they can remove him or perhaps the EU parliament can censure him but it is not our role to do so.

As for the "EU Tsars" thing, alot of people do not like the EU and they will find ways to attack it. People who use that terminology ("Eurocrats", "EU Tsars", "Unelected bureaucrats") are generally not arguing in good faith or trying to improve the workings of the EU. It actually does not matter to them how the EU is run (edit: which, if Irish, I think they would have learned the basics of at some point in a civics class). They do not like the whole idea full stop. In fact the more inefficiently the EU operates the better. They want it to fail to validate their (preexisting) views on it.

Thankfully that is a minority opinion in Ireland even though it is very strong on this website and this part of the website in particular.

I'm not sure what point of that piece you inserted about what the Commission is or the quote from Guy Verhofstadt is?

First Up

elperello wrote:

The project must succeed the alternatives are too grim to contemplate.

Failure is not an option.

Don't worry. The grown ups understand that.

Loafing Oaf

mick087 wrote: »

I would be one of those who would like to see Mobile phone use when driving be treated like drink driving.
I was a witness to an accident a few years ago because someone was using a mobile when driving. Thankfully no one died but it made me think.
I know its not popular but it should be treated very serious manner.

Only time I answered my phone behind the wheel I swerved half way across the next lane and nearly caused a crash. It's lethal.:eek:

landofthetree

Virtually all of the government TDs or other opposition TDs can't name any commissioner bar Phil Hogan.

FFS. Why dont they follow EU issues?

elperello

mick087 wrote: »

Yes i think change will come but its gonna be slow.

The Unelected Commission which is a big part of the EU structure and a very important part don't seem want its citizens to have a voice.

No its not perfect and yes like any position of power needs constant scrutiny not full of yes men doing the nodding dog routine.

Ideas thoughts opinions should be listened to without the fear of being told to shut up or being told you have no idea what your talking about attitude.
There is a long road to travel if the the EU is to succeed.

First Up wrote: »

Yes a long road ahead. So far it has only managed to be the most successful political, economic and social initiative in history. A long way to go.

The project must succeed the alternatives are too grim to contemplate.

Failure is not an option.

caveat emptor

fly_agaric wrote: »

Okay, who made Ireland king and decided "we" (or our politicians on our behalf) should be able to remove the EU commissioners from office? Can you not see how this (or any form of recall mechanism that originates directly out of the member state governments or people rather than at the EU level itself) is going to create a load of problems?

Would make the EU more subject to whims of 26 member states local politics & more unworkable and ungovernable than it already is, although maybe that is the idea/goal of people who'd argue for it (rather than ignorance/short sightedness).

edit: The fact that "we" (as in the Irish Govt. representing us) cannot remove an EU commissioner is not a lack of oversight. It is a feature.

We are not trying to remove a German commissioner.
Don't equate the two.
He is a representative of this country no matter what his office.
They write the rules that the whole EU has to live by. Not the eu parliament.

He has undermined the whole commission's work and structures.

The mobile phone is bad but the lack of judgement and a golf dinner with wealthy donors / politicians /judges is much more damning.

People are angry and they don't understand. A lot people's reaction could be **** the EU tsars. One rule for them, one rule for us.

Executive power[edit]
Before the Treaty of Lisbon came into force, the executive power of the EU was held by the Council: it conferred on the Commission such powers for it to exercise. However, the Council was allowed to withdraw these powers, exercise them directly, or impose conditions on their use.[48][49] This aspect has been changed by the Treaty of Lisbon, after which the Commission exercises its powers just by virtue of the treaties. Powers are more restricted than most national executives, in part due to the Commission's lack of power over areas like foreign policy – that power is held by the European Council, which some analysts have described as another executive.[50]
Considering that under the Treaty of Lisbon, the European Council has become a formal institution with the power of appointing the Commission, it could be said that the two bodies hold the executive power of the EU (the European Council also holds individual national executive powers).

However, it is the Commission that currently holds executive powers over the European Union.[50][51] The governmental powers of the Commission have been such that some, including former Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt, have suggested changing its name to the "European Government", calling the present name of the Commission "ridiculous".[52]

Legislative initiative[edit]
The Commission differs from the other institutions in that it alone has legislative initiative in the EU. Only the Commission can make formal proposals for legislation: they cannot originate in the legislative branches.

SEPT 23 1989

Ursula is running out of patience

Hawthorn Tree

Change is an overused word, especially by SF, but I think we need to start with the basics => The political parties need to start putting forward better quality candidates. They need to vet their candidates long before they become councillors and/or TDs. They seem to be picking self serving idiots or wafflers for the past few decades.

First Up

mick087 wrote:

Ideas thoughts opinions should be listened to without the fear of being told to shut up or being told you have no idea what your talking about attitude. There is a long road to travel if the the EU is to succeed.

Yes a long road ahead. So far it has only managed to be the most successful political, economic and social initiative in history. A long way to go.

mick087

elperello wrote: »

I hope it will be democratic change.

Europe is literally coming down with democracy.

From local councils to national parliaments (most with upper houses) to presidential elections to EU Parliament elections we have many opportunities to exercise our democratic rights.

The "unelected" Commission is just part of the structure that runs the EU.

Not perfect, in need of constant scrutiny, but not undemocratic.

Yes i think change will come but its gonna be slow.

The Unelected Commission which is a big part of the EU structure and a very important part don't seem want its citizens to have a voice.

No its not perfect and yes like any position of power needs constant scrutiny not full of yes men doing the nodding dog routine.

Ideas thoughts opinions should be listened to without the fear of being told to shut up or being told you have no idea what your talking about attitude.
There is a long road to travel if the the EU is to succeed.

lawrencesummers

Deleted User wrote: »

People have been behaving like this group of politicians all Summer!!! House parties, drunken groups in closed pubs, beach parties, BBQs, travelling abroad on holidays and yet our death rates are lower than ever!!

To be honest I am sick to death of the Phil Hogan show, the media kill these things to death so it almost has the reverse effect. Let it go.
I know all the stats, the figures, the "chances" of getting Covid, it could happen anywhere to any of us and we might never know how we got it. I lost a child to cancer, there are no guarantees in this life to anything.
Nobody right now is dying of Covid........nursing home cases were what gave us such a high death rate.

No, very few people have been behaving like that, and that’s why our rates are lower. Just because a house party gets massive coverage doesn’t mean that the vast majority of the population are at house parties.

But you know that, and some people are sick to death from Covid, But thankfully now a massive amount because the majority of people can adhere to the guidelines even if some of the people putting them forward can’t.

[Deleted User]

Gerry Hatrick wrote: »

Normal decent people haven't been doing the things you mention, they've been abiding by the health guidelines because they are decent people. Scumbags have been doing the things you mention because that's what they are, scumbags.

If you are sick to death of it just turn off the radio/TV/Social media and get on with your life.

yes but it hasn't caused hundreds of deaths and that was my point.......none of this scumbag behaviour caused a spike in deaths. Mr "care to hazard a guess" asked me this question and I was answering it................have a lovely day too........thankfully I have a life outside of Boards :-)

elperello

mick087 wrote: »

Change will come.

I hope it will be democratic change.

Europe is literally coming down with democracy.

From local councils to national parliaments (most with upper houses) to presidential elections to EU Parliament elections we have many opportunities to exercise our democratic rights.

The "unelected" Commission is just part of the structure that runs the EU.

Not perfect, in need of constant scrutiny, but not undemocratic.

Gerry Hatrick

Deleted User wrote: »

People have been behaving like this group of politicians all Summer!!! House parties, drunken groups in closed pubs, beach parties, BBQs, travelling abroad on holidays and yet our death rates are lower than ever!!

To be honest I am sick to death of the Phil Hogan show, the media kill these things to death so it almost has the reverse effect. Let it go.
I know all the stats, the figures, the "chances" of getting Covid, it could happen anywhere to any of us and we might never know how we got it. I lost a child to cancer, there are no guarantees in this life to anything.
Nobody right now is dying of Covid........nursing home cases were what gave us such a high death rate.

Normal decent people haven't been doing the things you mention, they've been abiding by the health guidelines because they are decent people. Scumbags have been doing the things you mention because that's what they are, scumbags.

If you are sick to death of it just turn off the radio/TV/Social media and get on with your life.

mick087

Deleted User wrote: »

yes you're right, its a huge distraction. I use mine on speaker or bluetooth and even that sometimes is distracting. It only takes a second and those TV ads really have a powerful effect, we all need to be reminded of this regularly.

It really does only take a second. People don't understand until it happens to them.
Once upon a time drink driving was the normal now only the stupid drink and drive.
Mobile phone use should be in the same league as drink driving.