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Post primary return to schools roadmap

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https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/7acad-reopening-our-post-primary-schools/#additional-guidelines-and-procedures

A thread to discuss issues.

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jimmytwotimes 2013

Smacruairi wrote: »

Fails in the system though usually come from someone making a hames of it, or cracking under pressure, or being ill or whatever. Very very rarely from failing all year and doing the test anyway. It can happen but I've never seen it bar once. That's why fails will be underrepresented and should be allowed to be underrepresented. You can't calculate someone will crack.

A student ignoring advice to drop to ordinary level could result in a fail if they insisted on being graded at higher level

am_zarathustra

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes they can. Almost 10.9% of students failed OL Maths last year. That's pretty run of the mill for OL Maths. They're not just going to pass everyone this year. The repercussions are very real for the student that fails maths, but it happens every year.

Why would management raise eyebrows at giving lower than 30%. If you have a student that is not able to get 30% then they don't deserve 30%. If they got higher than deserved that's grade inflation.

If every school in the country did that and didn't fail anyone in Maths then there will have to be downgrades. Same for every other subject.

Absolutely, I failed a student in maths.i hadn't a piece of paper over two years that indicated they might even pass on their best day. I would have been lying had I said otherwise and it would be a disservice to the kids I know killed themselves to get their 45 or 52%

Smacruairi

So if they don't use their original algorithm to adjust... What are they going to use?comparison to the jc results? I just can't see them doing anything else other than school profiling which is what the blatantly admitted to earlier on. Is gender still on the cards?

rainbowtrout

soso02 wrote: »

Can the DoE really fail students though ? The reprecussions for students would be immense. Management would have raised eyebrows had we predicted lower than 30.0 and rightly so, you can bet at least 50 % of schools were doing likewise.

I don't know how colleges are happy to receive these estimates. I still maintain a later intake maybe November to facilitate some sort of assessment.

Or have multiple courses reaching 625 *.

Yes they can. Almost 10.9% of students failed OL Maths last year. That's pretty run of the mill for OL Maths. They're not just going to pass everyone this year. The repercussions are very real for the student that fails maths, but it happens every year.

Why would management raise eyebrows at giving lower than 30%. If you have a student that is not able to get 30% then they don't deserve 30%. If they got higher than deserved that's grade inflation.

If every school in the country did that and didn't fail anyone in Maths then there will have to be downgrades. Same for every other subject.

Bananaleaf

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well they do expect us to answer Ireland's call so would it be any other way?:rolleyes:

I was actually thinking of that as I was typing it out :pac:

rainbowtrout

Bananaleaf wrote: »

In our school it is shoulder to shoulder

Well they do expect us to answer Ireland's call so would it be any other way?:rolleyes:

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

That's impossible without a time machine.

The results are well on the system and I'm sure the minister knows what the story is.
The time for meetings is now.

No it's not. I spent a couple of years honing a specific christmas exam that allows for a mix of HL and OL questions for my LC class. I've designed it in such a way that if a student does all of the OL questions and gets them right they can get a max of 40% and if they do all the HL questions correct they can get 100%. The ranking on that exam is usually how my exam results come out in August, with the very odd exception.

With regard to the accuracy thing. I'm not talking about getting a mark bang on, I'm talking about teachers bumping students up 5% to the next grade that they know heart and soul the student would be very unlikely to achieve under normal exam conditions. That's not an accurate reflection of ability.

What exactly would you be proposing would be on the agenda for said meeting? We don't know how the grades have come out, we don't know if many have been adjusted and we don't know if adjustments were widespread, in particular subjects, or confined to particular schools. Very hard to have a meeting with no information which we won't get until 7th September

Mardy Bum

Smacruairi wrote: »

Fails in the system though usually come from someone making a hames of it, or cracking under pressure, or being ill or whatever. Very very rarely from failing all year and doing the test anyway. It can happen but I've never seen it bar once. That's why fails will be underrepresented and should be allowed to be underrepresented. You can't calculate someone will crack.

A certain percentage of students fail ever year the same way a certain percentage achieve a H1. Both are rare (1-2%) in certain subjects but they happen. Admittedly, I would only consider failing a student who had shown a consistent pattern of failing and had demonstrated little or no improvement throughout their time in school.

If teachers did not do this fairly in June there will be a huge injustice carried out on both teachers and students who did it right. The teachers will be filled with guilt and the students will have lost out to lesser candidates..

Smacruairi

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Of course you can fail students. Students fail every year. This is why the system doesn't work. Teachers and management not doing their job. If you give a H1 you can give a H8.

Fails in the system though usually come from someone making a hames of it, or cracking under pressure, or being ill or whatever. Very very rarely from failing all year and doing the test anyway. It can happen but I've never seen it bar once. That's why fails will be underrepresented and should be allowed to be underrepresented. You can't calculate someone will crack.

Mardy Bum

soso02 wrote: »

Can the DoE really fail students though ? The reprecussions for students would be immense. Management would have raised eyebrows had we predicted lower than 30.0 and rightly so, you can bet at least 50 % of schools were doing likewise.

I don't know how colleges are happy to receive these estimates. I still maintain a later intake maybe November to facilitate some sort of assessment.

Or have multiple courses reaching 625 *.

Of course you can fail students. Students fail every year. This is why the system doesn't work. Teachers and management not doing their job. If you give a H1 you can give a H8.

Bananaleaf

combat14 wrote: »

the slippery slope already started:

Coronavirus Ireland: Parents can send children to school if they are sneezing or have a runny nose, government advises

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...-39474011.html
combat14 is online now Report Post

You'd be hoping that most might stay at home if they have sniffles, if for no other reason than the fact that it would make getting Covid from someone else while having a cold at same time horrendous.

I guess this will mean that some teachers will now feel the need to also turn up if they have sniffles and sneezes

smallgarden

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Off topic quick one, how does S and S work at post primary if you are covering a maternity until Christmas. Are you in the scheme or out of it? Could you be asked to do the full 43 in half a year? It’s fairly relevant due to the high demands Covid is going to place on S and S

If non casual you should be in the scheme. If casual then you shouldn't. It depends on your contract. Most maternity contracts are non casual but as it's only till Christmas it might be casual.

combat14

the slippery slope already started:

Coronavirus Ireland: Parents can send children to school if they are sneezing or have a runny nose, government advises

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...-39474011.html
combat14 is online now Report Post

am_zarathustra

It's done pro rata on your actual hours. So if you were doing half hour for half the year you'd do a quarter of the s and s if that makes sense.

Bananaleaf

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Off topic quick one, how does S and S work at post primary if you are covering a maternity until Christmas. Are you in the scheme or out of it? Could you be asked to do the full 43 in half a year? It’s fairly relevant due to the high demands Covid is going to place on S and S

You wouldnt be doing the full amount in the half a year, no. I would imagine it is calculated as normal over the course of the year as it would be tied to the hours rather than the teacher if that makes sense?

mirrorwall14

Off topic quick one, how does S and S work at post primary if you are covering a maternity until Christmas. Are you in the scheme or out of it? Could you be asked to do the full 43 in half a year? It’s fairly relevant due to the high demands Covid is going to place on S and S

soso02

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Combined with a reluctance to give fail grades, that's more grade inflation at the other end.

Can the DoE really fail students though ? The reprecussions for students would be immense. Management would have raised eyebrows had we predicted lower than 30.0 and rightly so, you can bet at least 50 % of schools were doing likewise.

I don't know how colleges are happy to receive these estimates. I still maintain a later intake maybe November to facilitate some sort of assessment.

Or have multiple courses reaching 625 *.

am_zarathustra

Ah yeah, the old zero tolerance approach. As if the rest of the time the school is fine with bullying. We have just enough rooms for every staff member so no sharing. Randomly the school has more fire exits than any building I've even seen so we can move them between blocks via outside which I think will help massively.

I think the issue of bullying in unsupervised classes is really being underplayed. We are pretty proactive in combating it and have a very positive environment but I would still worry. Stepping out of class for a second is one thing, the kids knowing they will be free for 5 minutes multiple times every day is another.

I think for younger kids sitting for that long will be torturous. I have serious sympathy, I was that kid sent on errands coz I couldn't sit still. Some of the rooms will be fab too, decorated and clean.....some will be kips.

When we looked at senior kids too there was only 8 periods a week when some or all of the, weren't on the move anyway, between levels and subject choices, hardly seems worth it.

I can see the logic in huge schools but otherwise I'm not sure of the value

Bananaleaf

am_zarathustra wrote: »

170 million was obviously well spent on a useless visor and one mask.

Looks like we are def keeping our base classes. Makes even more sense in light of the numbers from the UK on staff transmission. Are many schools doing this?

I suppose it depends on the size of the school, but having been against base classrooms for students initially, I'm now thinking that in the context of my school (1200 pupils) it's the best option. From a Covid point of view.

I was in the building last week and students were in and out, clearing out their lockers. There were about 15 of them on the premises and it was hard work keeping them apart, even though there was more than enough space for them to do so.

I think we are actually less at risk of contracting anything if they are kept off the corridors and away from us.

Even if teachers had base rooms in our school, not all of them do so it would be horrible for those to have to move around amongst the kids every 40mins.

That's just the context of my school of course - base classrooms for teachers might work better for some schools

From a wellbeing point of view though - base classrooms for kids is going to be horrible for some students and despite having brought this up with my management team, we are going ahead and I'm assured that a zero-tolerance approach to any misbehaviour (that we won't be able to prove by the way) will be taken ....

jimmytwotimes 2013

am_zarathustra wrote: »

170 million was obviously well spent on a useless visor and one mask.

Looks like we are def keeping our base classes. Makes even more sense in light of the numbers from the UK on staff transmission. Are many schools doing this?

We're moving around

am_zarathustra

170 million was obviously well spent on a useless visor and one mask.

Looks like we are def keeping our base classes. Makes even more sense in light of the numbers from the UK on staff transmission. Are many schools doing this?

wirelessdude01

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We are being given one visor apparently. One. My room hasn’t even been hoovered never mind deep cleaned. The place looks like a bomb site. Hopefully it all comes together

We are getting one visor and one re-usable mask. I asked for more masks and was told no.

wirelessdude01

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We are being given one visor apparently. One. My room hasn’t even been hoovered never mind deep cleaned. The place looks like a bomb site. Hopefully it all comes together

We are getting one visor and one re-usable mask. I asked for more masks and was told no.

mirrorwall14

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Our place is in a shocking state. It's really disconcerting. And meanwhile, I'm spending my last few days flying around getting my own masks, santisers, wipes, gloves etc. The very thing I said I wouldn't do They've left me with no choice

We are being given one visor apparently. One. My room hasn’t even been hoovered never mind deep cleaned. The place looks like a bomb site. Hopefully it all comes together

wirelessdude01

ethical wrote: »

Easy solution to all the worry and concern about going back to school:test every student and teacher!
It would possibly be money well spent,if not the Covid test then the anti body test.
Perhaps some of us have had it already.

I think it would get rid of all the uncertainty.

I made a suggestion on here that there should be weekly testing for all schools, staff and students. Various excuses given why it wouldn't be allowed.

Bananaleaf

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Yeah I got that later on. It’s mental. There is actually more space for the state exams than between the students now. I’m so not reassured at all. And our school has a mountain of work to do. I didn’t see a single classroom ready or any part of the buildings Covid compliant. The sanitiser still the door is still sitting on a table

Our place is in a shocking state. It's really disconcerting. And meanwhile, I'm spending my last few days flying around getting my own masks, santisers, wipes, gloves etc. The very thing I said I wouldn't do

They've left me with no choice

ethical

Easy solution to all the worry and concern about going back to school:test every student and teacher!
It would possibly be money well spent,if not the Covid test then the anti body test.
Perhaps some of us have had it already.

I think it would get rid of all the uncertainty.

mirrorwall14

Bananaleaf wrote: »

In our school it is shoulder to shoulder

Yeah I got that later on. It’s mental. There is actually more space for the state exams than between the students now. I’m so not reassured at all. And our school has a mountain of work to do. I didn’t see a single classroom ready or any part of the buildings Covid compliant. The sanitiser still the door is still sitting on a table

Bananaleaf

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me where the 1m is to be measured from?

In our school it is shoulder to shoulder

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would imagine that the vast majority of teachers ranked their students accurately. I would imagine there were a significant cohort who did not grade their students accurately. The teacher who has a really good student who always hits high 80s, but has never got more than 87 in any exam, but they've given them the benefit of the doubt and put them down as a 92. It doesn't take many of them to skew the curve.

That's impossible without a time machine.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I
No point having a meeting based on non existant results. May as well wait until 7th September. I'd imagine that not only will they be looking at how the results play out in different scenarios but how it plays out with the CAO too.

The results are well on the system and I'm sure the minister knows what the story is.
The time for meetings is now.