Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Jesus, you're really going for it with this cringeworthy metaphor of yours.

I'm gone for two days and Downcow is back to speaking on behalf of almost two million people.

Your hardline position is not representative of the majority view in NI any more than a hardline Republican view would be. The simple fact of the matter is that most people don't have the emotional investment in the topic that you have. I'm sure that most people I know from a Unionist background would be absolutely skundered by your little metaphor being used to represent their much more complex views.

I'm wholly confused. 48% in a census make a concious choice to identify as British...the rest make a conscious decision not to identify as British but Irish.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm wholly confused. 48% in a census make a concious choice to identify as British...the rest make a conscious decision not to identify as British but Irish.

To be honest, that is a bit of a simplification too Francie.

A hardline Loyalist would point out that NI is part of the United Kingdom, so those who identify as Northern Irish are implicitly defining themselves as being part of the United Kingdom.

A hardline Republican would point of that the person is identifying as Northern IRISH, a clear and obvious effort to distance themselves from Britain.

As with most of these things, the truth will be somewhere in the middle. The Northern Irish identity is a more complex affair than either you or Downcow are willing to acknowledge. I'd prefer not to speak on behalf of others, or put myself on a pedestal claiming to have great insight into the minds of others, but I can confidently say that a large amount those who identify as Northern Irish wouldn't be interested in such a black and white approach to their identity being taken.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

To be honest, that is a bit of a simplification too Francie.

A hardline Loyalist would point out that NI is part of the United Kingdom, so those who identify as Northern Irish are implicitly defining themselves as being part of the United Kingdom.

A hardline Republican would point of that the person is identifying as Northern IRISH, a clear and obvious effort to distance themselves from Britain.

As with most of these things, the truth will be somewhere in the middle. The Northern Irish identity is a more complex affair than either you or Downcow are willing to acknowledge. I'd prefer not to speak on behalf of others, or put myself on a pedestal claiming to have great insight into the minds of others, but I can confidently say that a large amount those who identify as Northern Irish wouldn't be interested in such a black and white approach to their identity being taken.

I only ever stated what my Northern Irish identity meant to me, in response to Francie claiming it made me Irish.
The Northern Irish identity has snowballed in no small measure to many peoples love for the Northern Ireland football teams. Ask people leaving a game and I think you’ll find the vast majority will describe themselves as norther Irish but they are a million miles away from what Francie thinks that means.

downcow wrote: »

I only ever stated what my Northern Irish identity meant to me, in response to Francie claiming it made me Irish.
The Northern Irish identity has snowballed in no small measure to many peoples love for the Northern Ireland football teams. Ask people leaving a game and I think you’ll find the vast majority will describe themselves as norther Irish but they are a million miles away from what Francie thinks that means.

I could be mistaken on this one Downcow, but I'm unaware of any indicators of a significant uptick in support for the NI national soccer team, or the local clubs.

I would also be very surprised if the majority did not describe themselves as British. My expectation would be a strong minority who describe themselves as exclusively Northern Irish, with a larger number using Northern Irish in the context of sport, but with an overall British identity.

Do you have any specifics on this? I'd prefer something quantitative rather than an opinion piece, but I'd settle for the latter as a starting point.

Perhaps it is my own bias coming to play, but I would still presume the vast majority of the national team's fans are Unionist/from a Unionist background, and so it wouldn't surprise me that they're a million miles from what Francie thinks. You might be just as surprised if you were to speak to a group of people who identify as Northern Irish leaving a GAA match.

There has definitely been an increase in people describing themselves as Northern Irish alright, I'd imagine it is primarily growing among the middle class of both communities, but I don't think there is much to be gained from black and white presumption on how these people would vote regarding Unification either way.

My best guess would be that this group of people are less ideologically committed to the Big Question than those who identify exclusively as British or Irish, and so will form the middle ground of persuadables as such. This is purely a guess as an exercise in logic though, so I'd also be open to looking at any data that shows me to be incorrect on this.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I could be mistaken on this one Downcow, but I'm unaware of any indicators of a significant uptick in support for the NI national soccer team, or the local clubs.

I would also be very surprised if the majority did not describe themselves as British. My expectation would be a strong minority who describe themselves as exclusively Northern Irish, with a larger number using Northern Irish in the context of sport, but with an overall British identity.

Do you have any specifics on this? I'd prefer something quantitative rather than an opinion piece, but I'd settle for the latter as a starting point.

Perhaps it is my own bias coming to play, but I would still presume the vast majority of the national team's fans are Unionist/from a Unionist background, and so it wouldn't surprise me that they're a million miles from what Francie thinks. You might be just as surprised if you were to speak to a group of people who identify as Northern Irish leaving a GAA match.

There has definitely been an increase in people describing themselves as Northern Irish alright, I'd imagine it is primarily growing among the middle class of both communities, but I don't think there is much to be gained from black and white presumption on how these people would vote regarding Unification either way.

My best guess would be that this group of people are less ideologically committed to the Big Question than those who identify exclusively as British or Irish, and so will form the middle ground of persuadables as such. This is purely a guess as an exercise in logic though, so I'd also be open to looking at any data that shows me to be incorrect on this.

As a lifelong Ni team supporter I have witnessed a great growth in support and and increasingly diverse support. Yes we have a small ground but you need to maintain your season ticket to get in reguarally.

I agree most are still unionist at games but that continues to evolve and become more diverse.

I would still say most describe themselves first as Northern Irish. Antidotal I know but very few if any union flags almost all NI flags. And exclusively green NI shirts.

I would be over the moon if I thought those leaving gaa games were describing themselves as Northern Irish but I doubt it

Fionn1952 wrote: »

To be honest, that is a bit of a simplification too Francie.

A hardline Loyalist would point out that NI is part of the United Kingdom, so those who identify as Northern Irish are implicitly defining themselves as being part of the United Kingdom.

A hardline Republican would point of that the person is identifying as Northern IRISH, a clear and obvious effort to distance themselves from Britain.

As with most of these things, the truth will be somewhere in the middle. The Northern Irish identity is a more complex affair than either you or Downcow are willing to acknowledge. I'd prefer not to speak on behalf of others, or put myself on a pedestal claiming to have great insight into the minds of others, but I can confidently say that a large amount those who identify as Northern Irish wouldn't be interested in such a black and white approach to their identity being taken.

How is it a simplification to say that more people in NI are making a distinct decision not to identify as British?

Yes they are doing it for differing reasons. But the point remains there is a move away from wanting to be seen as British.

We'll see how that has changed in the census next year - after the seismic events that have happened since the last one.

jm08

This paper discusses it very well (from NI Assembly).

Northern Irish: Possible Meanings
If 'Northern Irish' is a genuinely 'neutral' or cross-community identity, this may lead to politically moderate views and behaviour. A different interpretation of 'Northern Irish' as identity choice is that it may be simply another manifestation of the two main identities. Some Protestants may adopt the term as a way of expressing their belonging to a particular part of the UK while some Catholics may use the term to indicate their belonging to the Northern part of Ireland (McKeown, 2014). Accordingly,Northern Irish Catholics and Northern Irish Protestants may be just as different from each other as Irish Catholics and British Protestants are. A third possibility is that being 'Northern Irish' is a meaningful distinction for Catholics but not for Protestants. As the majority culture Protestants may 'project' their identity on the superordinate 'Northern Irish' identity (Noor et al. 2010 and McKeown, 2014). This would leadto large differences between Irish Catholic and Northern Irish Catholics in terms of attitudes and behaviour, but little or no differences between British Protestants and Northern Irish Protestants

Which Meaning is Correct?
Relating to Political AttitudesWe find that British Protestants are different from 'Northern Irish' Protestants: less than a quarter of the latter favour direct rule compared to two fifths of the former (see Table 1). Identity based differences in constitutional preferences are even more stark for Catholics: support for a united Ireland is three times greater among Irish Catholics (59 percent) than among Northern Irish Catholics (21 percent). The British versus Northern Irish distinction among Protestants also differentiates Protestants who are 'unionist' and those who are not: British Protestants are 'unionist' by a proportion of 2 to 1 while Northern Irish Protestants are almost evenly divided between 'unionists' and 'neither unionist nor nationalist'. An analogous, but much starker,pattern emerges among Catholics. Irish Catholics are over twice as likely to be nationalist than 'neither unionist nor nationalist' while Northern Irish Catholics are almost twice as likely to be 'neither unionist nor nationalist' than 'nationalist'. Theidentity distinction is related to attitudes to powersharing among Protestants. One quarter of British Protestants are opposed compared to only 14 percent of Northern Irish Protestants. Among Catholics, attitudes to powersharing are equally positive, irrespective of identity. This analysis of the relationship between identity choice and other facets of ethno-national positions suggests that the 'Northern Irish' identity is politically meaningful in the sense that it is related to relatively moderate aspects of ethno-nationalism within both communities, but particularly so within the Catholic community, seemingly echoing the asymmetric findings of Noor et al. (2008)

Full paper is here:
http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/globalassets/documents/raise/knowledge_exchange/briefing_papers/series4/northern_ireland_identity_garry_mcnicholl_policy_document.pdf

So in summary - describing yourself as being Northern Irish means different things to different people. Seems to be most commonly used by people who do not want to be defined as nationalist or unionist.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How is it a simplification to say that more people in NI are making a distinct decision not to identify as British?

Yes they are doing it for differing reasons. But the point remains there is a move away from wanting to be seen as British.

We'll see how that has changed in the census next year - after the seismic events that have happened since the last one.

Because it could just as easily be argued that those people are making a distinct decision to not identify as Irish of course. It also ignores the cohort who identify as Northern Irish AND British or Northern Irish AND Irish.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Because it could just as easily be argued that those people are making a distinct decision to not identify as Irish of course. It also ignores the cohort who identify as Northern Irish AND British or Northern Irish AND Irish.

Exactly.

So I go to the core of my point.

48% are identifying as British. The rest are not identifying as British.

onh81

I consider “Northern Irish” to be subset of British identity. As such I would never describe myself to be “Northern Irish”. That said; I know people who play GAA, sing rebel songs when drunk and most definitely don’t follow the NI team but also call themselves “Northern Irish”. It’s much more nuanced than people care to admit

downcow wrote: »

As a lifelong Ni team supporter I have witnessed a great growth in support and and increasingly diverse support. Yes we have a small ground but you need to maintain your season ticket to get in reguarally.

I agree most are still unionist at games but that continues to evolve and become more diverse.

I would still say most describe themselves first as Northern Irish. Antidotal I know but very few if any union flags almost all NI flags. And exclusively green NI shirts.

I would be over the moon if I thought those leaving gaa games were describing themselves as Northern Irish but I doubt it

Equally anecdotal, but my last experience with an NI game was in Windsor Park, ballpark probably in and around 8 years ago, and the experience really put me off attending again. Union flags were very commonplace (which didn't bother me in the slightest). More significant for me, there were significant pockets of chanting that certainly didn't make things feel welcoming to me. I doubt my experience is particularly unique, and I'd imagine you would be highly condemnatory towards similar behaviour should you attend a GAA match, and be highly unlikely to attend again.

I'm aware that there seems to be less of these issues at major tournaments, with the away fans tending to be those who can afford big trips like that, but I was hoping for something a little deeper than a gut feeling that support is increasing, and increasingly varied. For example, I have no idea what the demand for season tickets is like and how this has changed over the time period you're referring to. If you had some insight into this, like increasing numbers of season ticket holders, or longer waiting lists if all season tickets are reserved each year, it would be indicative of a greater demand.

I genuinely don't know anyone from a Nationalist background who regularly attends NI games or would describe themselves as an NI fan, so I'm surprised to hear you feel attendance is becoming more diverse. I wouldn't rule out it becoming more economically diverse with the team's increasing international performance in recent times, but those people would generally be bandwagon types, fairweather fans for the odd big game type of thing, and I wouldn't expect that to reflect in a huge up tick in overall ticket demand on a consistent basis.

The run-of-form boost I'd compare to the sudden increase in Fermanagh folk attending our GAA games when we go on an unexpected run and there's potentially a day out in Croke Park to be had (also fairweather types from more diverse backgrounds), but the start of the following season in Brewster Park, it's back to the usual attendees. I wouldn't point to the increased demand in Fermanagh for a game in Croke Park as evidence for a growing and increasingly diverse support for the team.

What I'm unaware of is the increase beyond this, and whether that increase would die away after a few bad games - what I'm long-windedly asking I suppose, is any increase you've noted a new crowd of lifelong fans, and some sort of potential quantification on how significant and diverse this increase has actually been.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Exactly.

So I go to the core of my point.

48% are identifying as British. The rest are not identifying as British.

48% are identifying primarily as British. Trying to black-and-white analyse the people who primarily identify as Northern Irish always comes across as trying to, 'claim' them for that person's side. By pointing out that less than 50% identify as British, what point are you trying to make that can't be countered by pointing out that less than 30% identify as Irish?

I am somewhat playing devil's advocate in arguing the point with you, but I would be equally critical of the same 'claiming' of people from the Unionist side, particularly when I would presume that this is precisely what many who identify exclusively as Northern Irish wish to avoid.

Taking the demographic figures is one thing, making the assumption that a person identifies a certain way in order to distance themselves from Britishness or Irishness is applying an unsupported causative reasoning to that figure. Some may well actively be doing so, some will have other reasons for it. I don't think you can read as much into it as you would like to, particularly in the context of a potential discussion around unification.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

48% are identifying primarily as British. Trying to black-and-white analyse the people who primarily identify as Northern Irish always comes across as trying to, 'claim' them for that person's side.

I am somewhat playing devil's advocate in arguing the point with you, but I would be equally critical of the same 'claiming' of people from the Unionist side, particularly when I would presume that this is precisely what many who identify exclusively as Northern Irish wish to avoid.

Taking the demographic figures is one thing, making the assumption that a person identifies a certain way in order to distance themselves from Britishness or Irishness is another. Some may well actively be doing so, some will have other reasons for it. I don't think you can read as much into it as you would like to in the context of a potential discussion around unification.

Whoa now Fionn...I think you need to track back a minute and look at who was making claims about census figures.
I make no claim other than point to numbers choosing to move away from the 'British' identity.

I do believe it easier to convince people who are moving away from something.
That is not claiming them

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Whoa now Fionn...I think you need to track back a minute and look at who was making claims about census figures.
I make no claim other than point to numbers choosing to move away from the 'British' identity.

I do believe it easier to convince people who are moving away from something.
That is not claiming them

You were making claims about people choosing to distance themselves from Britishness to be fair, Francie. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but it very much comes across like you're suggesting an active decision to distance themselves from Britain, whereas the figures on potential voting patterns for a unification poll don't seem to carry that through.

I have no problem with people quoting figures (though I would question the value of depending on the 2011 census too heavily myself), it's the step beyond that in attributing reason/causative relationships to those figures that I have issue with.

On your latter point, I'd say it is debatable at least - to encourage people to embrace such a significant change requires more persuasion to have them move away from what they're used to. The apathetic response when you're not particularly interested either way would be to motor on with the status quo. I'd guess that the Northern Irish identifying cohort default positions would have a significant percentage who won't vote on the matter at all, because they don't care, and a significant percentage of risk averse people who aren't invested enough to take the perceived risk when they aren't ideologically tied to that outcome.

Of course, Brexit could be a huge spanner in the works for this if it starts to negatively impact the apathetically comfortable with the status quo types.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You were making claims about people choosing to distance themselves from Britishness to be fair, Francie. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but it very much comes across like you're suggesting an active decision to distance themselves from Britain, whereas the figures on potential voting patterns for a unification poll don't seem to carry that through.

I have no problem with people quoting figures (though I would question the value of depending on the 2011 census too heavily myself), it's the step beyond that in attributing reason/causative relationships to those figures that I have issue with.

On your latter point, I'd say it is debatable at least - to encourage people to embrace such a significant change requires more persuasion to have them move away from what they're used to. The apathetic response when you're not particularly interested either way would be to motor on with the status quo. I'd guess that the Northern Irish identifying cohort default positions would have a significant percentage who won't vote on the matter at all, because they don't care, and a significant percentage of risk averse people who aren't invested enough to take the perceived risk when they aren't ideologically tied to that outcome.

Of course, Brexit could be a huge spanner in the works for this if it starts to negatively impact the apathetically comfortable with the status quo types.

Compared to other census there is definitely a move away from a hard and fast 'British' identity to something else.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Exactly.

So I go to the core of my point.

48% are identifying as British. The rest are not identifying as British.

Francie, I am almost convinced that you are serious and not just on a windup, but you seem to have a serious lack of understanding about identity and Northern Ireland.
I think there are a small section of people in Northern Ireland who identify as Northern Irish because they do not want to identify as British or Irish.
There is zero dilemma for me and many others being firstly Northern Irish and yet fully British. I am as British as I have ever been, but my Northern Irish identity has got much stronger.
I do realise that it is much more difficult to be Northern Irish and Irish.

Northern Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom and by all international standards and law it is British. I could easily argue that everyone who is Northern Irish is British, but I would not do that and respect the right of those to class themselves as Northern Irish and not sign up to the British label.
Northern Ireland is not part of the Irish state and therefore I do recognise the contradiction in your mind about being Northern Irish and Irish, but to try and pass that dilemma on to people like me who belong to a Northern Ireland that is British and therefore I am as British as I am Northern Irish. Most Scottish and Welsh people would say exactly the same i.e. they are firstly Scottish but they are fully British.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How is it a simplification to say that more people in NI are making a distinct decision not to identify as British?

Yes they are doing it for differing reasons. But the point remains there is a move away from wanting to be seen as British.

We'll see how that has changed in the census next year - after the seismic events that have happened since the last one.

Francie I do not know how to explain this to you, but if there was a box on the census form that allows you to take Northern Irish and British you would find a large number of people who would tick it. It is the very essence of my Britishness that is the reason for me taking the Northern Irish box.
This is not an equivalent but if you could imagine an Irish census where people were given the option of taking Irish or Munster, can you see how people could tick Munster and be fully Irish, yet slightly more complicated if they lived in Antrim because they are not Irish by birth

downcow wrote: »

Francie, I am almost convinced that you are serious and not just on a windup, but you seem to have a serious lack of understanding about identity and Northern Ireland.
I think there are a small section of people in Northern Ireland who identify as Northern Irish because they do not want to identify as British or Irish.
There is zero dilemma for me and many others being firstly Northern Irish and yet fully British. I am as British as I have ever been, but my Northern Irish identity has got much stronger.
I do realise that it is much more difficult to be Northern Irish and Irish.

Northern Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom and by all international standards and law it is British. I could easily argue that everyone who is Northern Irish is British, but I would not do that and respect the right of those to class themselves as Northern Irish and not sign up to the British label.
Northern Ireland is not part of the Irish state and therefore I do recognise the contradiction in your mind about being Northern Irish and Irish, but to try and pass that dilemma on to people like me who belong to a Northern Ireland that is British and therefore I am as British as I am Northern Irish. Most Scottish and Welsh people would say exactly the same i.e. they are firstly Scottish but they are fully British.

Only 18% of Scottish people say they are 'Scottish and British'.

There is no contradiction in my mind about people defining their Irishness as part of their identity description.
I fully understand what it means to you, but until you have data, you cannot speak for all.

What we do know is that more people emphasise the Irish part of their make-up when choosing an identity.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Only 18% of Scottish people say they are 'Scottish and British'.

There is no contradiction in my mind about people defining their Irishness as part of their identity description.
I fully understand what it means to you, but until you have data, you cannot speak for all.

What we do know is that more people emphasise the Irish part of their make-up when choosing an identity.

Francie, this is the mistake you're making. You have yet to understand what Northern Irish means to people like me. The 'Irish' in it has zero to do with ROI or UI. Try and imagine that Northern Ireland is called something completely different e.g. Boogooland, it's still British and part of the UK and I am claiming to be a Boogee. I cannot get away from the fact that it shares part of its name with the country to the south.
It's like someone saying they are a South Korean and you saying Oh look, they must be softening their approach to being taken over by Kim Jung because they are using the term Korean.

Until we have honest conversations and stop trying to put each other in boxes that suits our agendas and fanciful aspirations, we will really not get very far.

Here's what Jude Collins says when he quotes Bernadette Devlin. I think you should take note from these two Republicans and move on
"‘The war is over and the good guys lost.’ This is what my hero Bernadette McAliskey said on the day the IRA declared a ceasefire in 1994, which officially ended the armed struggle against British rule. Veteran civil-rights activist McAliskey, who was one of the organisers of the Bloody Sunday march, was acknowledging that her side in this war had lost: that they had failed to end British rule and unite Ireland. But she was suggesting we concede defeat and move on. I am with her." NB edit - apologies, not Jude Collins , Kevin Rooney

downcow wrote: »

Francie, this is the mistake you're making. You have yet to understand what Northern Irish means to people like me. The 'Irish' in it has zero to do with ROI or UI. Try and imagine that Northern Ireland is called something completely different e.g. Boogooland, it's still British and part of the UK and I am claiming to be a Boogee. I cannot get away from the fact that it shares part of its name with the country to the south.
It's like someone saying they are a South Korean and you saying Oh look, they must be softening their approach to being taken over by Kim Jung because they are using the term Korean.

Until we have honest conversations and stop trying to put each other in boxes that suits our agendas and fanciful aspirations, we will really not get very far.

Here's what Jude Collins says when he quotes Bernadette Devlin. I think you should take note from these two Republicans and move on
"‘The war is over and the good guys lost.’ This is what my hero Bernadette McAliskey said on the day the IRA declared a ceasefire in 1994, which officially ended the armed struggle against British rule. Veteran civil-rights activist McAliskey, who was one of the organisers of the Bloody Sunday march, was acknowledging that her side in this war had lost: that they had failed to end British rule and unite Ireland. But she was suggesting we concede defeat and move on. I am with her." NB edit - apologies, not Jude Collins , Kevin Rooney

You just put everybody who has switched from describing themselves as British to Northern Irish in YOUR box, on the basis of no data other than how you feel yourself.

You cannot do that, no more than I can claim them as United Irelanders.

What you can do is say that the majority are NOT choosing to define themselves as British...that is a 'shift away' from something.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You just put everybody who has switched from describing themselves as British to Northern Irish in YOUR box, on the basis of no data other than how you feel yourself.

You cannot do that, no more than I can claim them as United Irelanders.

What you can do is say that the majority are NOT choosing to define themselves as British...that is a 'shift away' from something.

I did not put anyone in a box. But I am just being very clear with you that choosing Northern Irish by anybody I know is certainly not choosing to define themselves as something other than British. In unionist eyes Northern Irish is British and your assertion of anything different would be seen as downright ridiculous.
I do know lots of Catholics who refer to themselves as Northern Irish. The reason I am saying catholic is that I think would be wrong to use the term nationalist or Republican for them. 20 years ago they were openly Irish nationalist, but today they would not use that name to describe themselves and hence they have moved to Northern Irish. I would actually describe them as soft Unionists now. For all the palaver on here about how wonderful ROI is and the terrible place that NI is, they would have far more friends and dealings in ROI than me, and they would see people south of the border as being worse off, paying higher taxes, paying for medical treatment, paying for prescriptions, etc, etc.

downcow wrote: »

I did not put anyone in a box.

Here is where you 'put people in a box' downcow

downcow wrote:

I wouldn’t force any identity on the people living in my country. I like to deal in facts and the most recent census says that More feel british than any other identity. More feel british than any other identity. Next greatest identity is Northern Irish, with Irish the smallest of the three major identities - Based on what people say themselves.
I know those stats will upset our United Irelanders but the only other logic will upset them even more ie we are born british and then you can choose - thankfully more are choosing Northern Irish than Irish - but the much greater number are happy with their british tag of birth.

on the basis of nothing more than how you feel yourself and those wee friends who seem to pop up at the most opportune times to back up what you feel.

My point is that there is a movement away from identifying as British and I backed that up with the census figures.
48% identify as British

57% identify as Irish or Northern Irish.

The unbacked up claims of somebody who has shown themselves to be a belligerent, anti a United Ireland Unionist are suspect.

ittakestwo

jh79 wrote: »

And part of the GFA was the acceptance of British sovereignty as legitimate.

It's a part of the GFA insecure republicans try to pretend doesn't exist.

Yeah it is legitimate. I am not saying it is not. NI is part of the UK. But geographically it is on the Island of Ireland and not Britain. Point here is that some people can't admit that which is odd. Even if Scotland votes independent it still will be on Britain. Scots independent or not will always be British just like NI will always be Irish. You cant change geography.

Alex Kane lays out a daunting task for Unionism in this article. A task they haven't even started to undertake, which makes his positivity for the future of the Union a little oddly place IMO.

AlexKane wrote:

In terms of the challenges unionists face, here are a number off the top of my head. The clash between the competing nationalisms across the United Kingdom; the surge, influence and interests of a rebooted English nationalism (the like of which I haven’t seen in my lifetime); the rise of Scottish nationalism and Sinn Fein; the combined impact of finally leaving the EU without a deal and the massive economic hit the UK has already taken from the pandemic; the closing electoral gap between unionism and nationalism in Northern Ireland; the rise of what can best be described as the ‘other’ demographic in Northern Ireland and how it can be kept within the pro-UK camp; the outcome of an independence referendum in Scotland (which I think is more likely than not); and, of course, the looming shadow of a border poll (and while we can argue over dates, I still think it’s inevitable).

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/columnists/alex-kane-centenary-ni-needs-coherent-united-pro-union-message-2950463

A good question in the twitter discussion too:

Is it possible that the UK has failed, as a state, to foster Britishness? In all four countries, people identify more often as something other than #British (eg Irish or Northern Irish).
Given the success of Fra, Ger and Ita in fostering national identities, what gives?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I once floated the idea on here of a United Island containing two countries NI & ROI.

NI was never a country or nation, it's a disputed territory that is being stitched back into the tapestry of our nation and will not be torn apart again.

Clearly you would be too possessive and checking up on us all the time. You would get jealous every time we spoke to our former lover.

Britain considers its north-of-Ireland problem a troubled child it must pay maintenance for and will happily offload when it gets a chance, as the Irish Sea border demonstrates.

You would be suspicious and you could become abusive again. It would not be a healthy relationship. You need to become more confident in yourselves and grow some more self esteem.

Ireland is a young, confident, outward-facing country, the part of it that remained under British jurisdiction is economically and socially backward, one of the worst performing regions in Western Europe.

And then there’s your in-laws in Europe who would be interfering. It would be a disaster!

Ireland is Europe, all of it.

Sorry to turn you down again on your proposal.

It's no proposal, it's our destiny.

We actually could grow to like you but you need to back off and stop pressuring us.

Unionists are the baggage that will come with unification but they have nowhere else to go so I believe that young former unionists will become fully integrated into the Irish nation.

Jump_In_Jack

ittakestwo wrote: »

Yeah it is legitimate. I am not saying it is not. NI is part of the UK. But geographically it is on the Island of Ireland and not Britain. Point here is that some people can't admit that which is odd. Even if Scotland votes independent it still will be on Britain. Scots independent or not will always be British just like NI will always be Irish. You cant change geography.

It’s minor semantics but,
I believe Britain is technically England and Wales, while Scotland plus Britain makes up Great Britain.
I’d be surprised if anyone from Scotland would say they are from Britain, though they may use the term British in terms of reference to anything related to the UK.
For example, it’s Team GB whenever Scotland England and Wales are in the Olympics, not Team B.
Historically it was Britannia as far as Scotland and Caledonia beyond where the Romans never ventured.

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

It’s minor semantics but,
I believe Britain is technically England and Wales, while Scotland plus Britain makes up Great Britain.
I’d be surprised if anyone from Scotland would say they are from Britain, though they may use the term British in terms of reference to anything related to the UK.
For example, it’s Team GB whenever Scotland England and Wales are in the Olympics, not Team B.
Historically it was Britannia as far as Scotland and Caledonia beyond where the Romans never ventured.

Team gb includes Northern Ireland. It is simply branding ie include Great

[Deleted User]

downcow wrote: »

Team gb includes Northern Ireland. It is simply branding ie include Great

Team GB does not include Northern Ireland. Same as the Rugby team, north and south Ireland is the one team, Great Britain in the Olympics are a separate entity and there is no UK team.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Team GB does not include Northern Ireland. Same as the Rugby team, north and south Ireland is the one team, Great Britain in the Olympics are a separate entity and there is no UK team.

Well that is just nonsense
You do read some nonsense on here

Que Francie to tell us the team only think they represent NI. Lol