downcow wrote: » You can not deny that you are stating that your experience (where you were offended by fat people and union flags) is the norm and that it is minority that attend parades in rural towns. This is factually incorrect. Or maybe you can supply the data that leads you to this conclusion?
Fionn1952 wrote: » My post was descriptive, Downcow. Nothing to do with being offended. The vast majority of the time I lived in the North, I did what an awful lot from my community do during the twelfth, and went elsewhere to leave you lot to it. There were some years were this wasn't possible due to other responsibilities, and a few years where either my curiosity got the better of me and I popped out for a nosey, or friends of mine from a Unionist background were attending and asked me to drop along with them for a few beers. I gave this description as a counterpoint to another poster's idyllic description of the twelfth as a super family friendly day out, while describing St Patrick's Day like a warzone. I do note that you haven't actually argued with the veracity of my description, but rather tried to deflect over to how describing it somehow means I'm offended by it. My data is purely demographics. I don't believe that a small village like Pomeroy (from a list of 2019 parades) has tens of thousands more people than Belfast or Coleraine watching the parade on the streets of the village. Perhaps we're at a crossed wire on what we would both consider urban versus rural. Obviously we can both agree that somewhere like Belfast is urban, and we would probably both consider say Pomeroy to be rural. Taking the 2019 list of 12th July parades from the BBC, I'll highlight what I consider rural, this might give you some insight into where we are disagreeing. Ahoghill Augher - rural Ballymena Ballymoney Ballyronan - rural Belfast Carnlough Coleraine Crossgar Donemana - rural Glenavy Holywood Kilkeel Larne Lisnaskea Tandragee Pomeroy - rural Rathfriland So by my reckoning, your statement that over 90% of 12th parades are small rural affairs is demonstrably false. No matter how restrictive you are on what you consider urban, there is no way you could consider 90% of the above rural. My statement that the majority of attendees at the 12th will experience a more urban affair should be self evident from the above list. The towns and villages with a population of 1-2000 could be argued as borderline for rural/urban, but even with relaxing to include those as rural, I can't see how the numbers add up to more people attending the rural parades. Note I am talking about spectators rather than the size of the parade itself, which is another place we could be getting our wires crossed. I'm fully aware the actual parades can be just as large in some of the rural parades. I believe for 2019, the Tandragee parade was the biggest, and Belfast was the longest parade at 6 miles.
Five Eighth wrote: » Northern Ireland - a failure 99 years on? If I could again make what I believe is the most salient point – Northern Ireland is a social, economic and political failure. As I have already noted on a previous post, Northern Ireland was created by an artificially contrived majority – a state built on quicksand. The dye was cast early in its exitance. Social Seamus Mallon entered politics in 1963 when a local family was turned down for public housing with a unionist councillor saying: “No Catholic pig or his litter will ever get a house in Markethill while I am here’” Is this what David Trimble meant when he said “Northern Ireland was a cold place for Catholics?” Economic The British exchequer transfers approximately €12b to Northern Ireland every year to keep it afloat. Political Diarmuid Ferriter yesterday (21/08/20) wrote in the Irish Times: Fifty years ago this summer, the British home secretary Reginald Maulding was on a flight back to London after his first visit to Northern Ireland for which he had responsibility as a member of the New Conservative government. “For God’s sake”, he demanded, “bring me a large Scotch. What a bloody awful country!”. Even when the Tories had assented to the creation of the New Northern Ireland in 1920, they had few positive things to say about the place. Former prime minister Arthur Balfour accepted the case for Unionists controlling their destiny “in spite of their bigotry”. Joe Devlin decried the desperate plight of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland, “kept as on third of the population as if they were pariahs”. The above piece is extracted from ‘Marking Centenary of a ‘bloody awful country’ a tall order’. The big question is ‘Where do we do from here?’
downcow wrote: » I think you concluding question is a fair one. But everything else in your post is just examples of bigotry and prejudice and both communities can match you or anyone else one for one. Both communities unfortunately can list endless barbaric sectarian acts against them. And yes we can argue whether the minority in 26 counties or in 6 counties were abandoned It all brings us back to your last question.
Shefwedfan wrote: » I was in Tandragee yesterday, it’s a village at best, so I think your story is falling apart In regards toast Patrick day, it’s a pi** up at best. Everyone drink, getting sick and fighting. Look what happened when they tried to recreate with St James Day and has to ban it because of the mess it was.....
jm08 wrote: » At least its an inclusive pissup. That little ''piss up'' gets Ireland's leaders an invite to the White House every year, lunch on Capital Hill (that even Trump didn't refuse to go to when Pelosi had walked out of a meeting with him). It gets Ireland name flashed all over the world, and most people have positive things to say about it which is good if you are a small exporting country like Ireland.
Shefwedfan wrote: » We are talking about Northern Ireland. Have you gone to St Patricks Day in Northern Ireland?
jm08 wrote: » No. A good bit of boozing happens around St. Patrick's Day around Dublin (and elsewhere!).
Five Eighth wrote: » I quoted Seamus Mallon, the British exchequer and the respected historian Diarmuid Ferriter. Could you please specify what is 'bigoted' or 'prejudicial' about anything in the post?
jm08 wrote: » Your community had three chances to avoid all this bigotry and prejudice with a) Sunningdale Agreement in 1970s (before all this stuff really kicked off) b) Anglo Irish Agreement in 1980s c) GFA in 1990s. If you want to point the finger at anyone, I think it should be yourselves that you are now in this predicament.
downcow wrote: » Where to we go from here?
downcow wrote: » We are not in any predicament. Your the one with the predicament 100 years of promises that a united island was just around the corner and there are less people in ni classifying themselves as Irish today than there ever was.
downcow wrote: » Settle. I was simple saying that the two communities are excellent at quoting how each has been hard done by, how each has been abused by the other etc etc. Your post was doing that. It was implying the big bad brits and the prods have been terrible to us little angels. I know unionists who do exactly the same. That’s going nowhere. Unionists believe they are the victims of nationalist violence and vice versa. You last question is the key question. Where to we go from here?
Five Eighth wrote: » I was using quotes from reputable sources to support my contention that Northern Ireland is a failed state. You may, of course, if you believe otherwise, use examples of how Northern Ireland is, in your opinion, a success 99 years on. I have noticed that not one of the contributions from what might be considered the 'Unionist tradition' has argued that Northern Ireland, is in fact, a successful state 99 years on. Isn't the main point of this thread to debate this very proposition?
FrancieBrady wrote: » Neither downcow nor shef or anyone else has laid out what they think is worthy of celebration or is a success. No shortage of takers to lay out what has failed though
downcow wrote: » I could list endless stuff that’s good about ni and lots of stuff that’s bad. What’s the point? I’m sure you could do the same about ROI?
FrancieBrady wrote: » What is worthy of celebration about the founding of NI downcow. P.S. The view, weather, the people etc don't count they were all there before partition. Tell us what you think is worthy of celebration. Genuine question
downcow wrote: » Take a look again at your examples and then ask yourself “am I prejudiced and bigoted?”
Five Eighth wrote: » Your comments are not supporting why you believe Northern Ireland is a successful social, economic and political entity. You need to address whether or not Northern Ireland is economically viable, socially cohesive and politically stable. Just providing bland statements does not support your position on this matter.
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