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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

But if it is released and there is no conclusive argument to say the railway should be built how can it be sanctioned on the they have the Luas up in Dublin argument. That is not a rational to build a railway, as well you know EZ.

Imagine the scenario> Here is a report that we have been waiting for that says at best there is a luke warm argument to build this railway, and because they have the Luas up in Dublin we are going to go ahead with the project.

EZ you me and the dogs on street know this is not going to happen (I think!)

The data and business case contained in the "rail review" is not the only factor that will be considered in determining if, when, and to what extent the rest of the WRC will be reactivated. So if the report is favorable on reactivation to Tuam and lukewarm to Claremorris (for example), it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility that both phases could proceed.

Other goals and objectives beyond the core scope of the report can and will be considered (e.g., balanced regional and rural development, traffic/GHG emission reductions through modal shift, tourism, regeneration potential of town centres with transit-oriented development, available funding mechanisms such as carbon tax, and yes, even political promises and public opinion). Those are not all quantifiable in terms of X passengers by year Y costing Z euros. And sometimes the processes produces a result that initially appears illogical, but it happens all the time throughout western democracies. We are the Irish and not the Borg.

Muckyboots

westtip wrote: »

MB not sure about that, wasn't it asked to examine the business case, not to deliver a business case,

You are correct, but it qualified that request with these references-

As part of the demand modelling and projections task the Consultant shall also quantify
a) The direct and indirect cost benefits of moving freight directly to and from ports other than via the greater Dublin area, and should quantify the value of diverting south-bound freight from the Claremorris-Athlone-Kildare corridor. This will include an assessment of the potential reduction in delay minutes, and the potential opportunity of increasing rail passenger frequency on the Mayo-Dublin corridor.
b) The benefits of using the WRC as a Wild Atlantic Railway alongside the increasingly successful Wild Atlantic Way. The extent of additional rail tourism demand generated by the rail link shall be assessed and quantified by the Consultant.
c) The urgent need to provide an alternative method of moving commuters effectively and efficiently, to and from the regional capital of Galway. The northern and eastern outskirts of Galway, at Claregalway and Ballybrit, are choked with traffic at peak commuting periods, as commuters have few public transport options. A train to Eyre Square (or Oranmore), could have significant benefits to commuters and this benefit shall be quantified by the Consultant in the appraisal. It should be noted that the N6 Galway City Ring Road has been included in the National Development Plan, and therefore any scenario modelling on the potential benefits in that area, should explicitly consider that scheme.
d) The competitiveness gains of an all-island post Brexit transport infrastructure. Brexit will have a major impact on shipping/freight movements, and ports other than Dublin need rail connectivity to feed container traffic directly to Europe and to reduce reliance on the IrelandUK land bridge.

More than enough wiggle room for a good hard kick of a can within those qualifications don't you think?

westtip

Muckyboots wrote: »

Y
[/I]
More than enough wiggle room for a good hard kick of a can within those qualifications don't you think?

Yes indeed MB and that is what I fully expect, we won't see it happen in our lifetimes

Railway or Greenway - not from Athenry to Claremorris, we will however achieve the Sligo Greenway from Collooney to Charlestown, that may be the saving grace of this campaign, and we may see the greenway eventually get as far as Claremorris.

Pete_Cavan

ezstreet5 wrote: »

The data and business case contained in the "rail review" is not the only factor that will be considered in determining if, when, and to what extent the rest of the WRC will be reactivated. So if the report is favorable on reactivation to Tuam and lukewarm to Claremorris (for example), it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility that both phases could proceed.

Other goals and objectives beyond the core scope of the report can and will be considered (e.g., balanced regional and rural development, traffic/GHG emission reductions through modal shift, tourism, regeneration potential of town centres with transit-oriented development, available funding mechanisms such as carbon tax, and yes, even political promises and public opinion). Those are not all quantifiable in terms of X passengers by year Y costing Z euros. And sometimes the processes produces a result that initially appears illogical, but it happens all the time throughout western democracies. We are the Irish and not the Borg.

The report should consider all the things you mention. Any extension of the WRC will ultimately be assessed under the Public Spending Code;

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/public-spending-code/

I wonder how WRC Phase 1 would have faired out if it was subject to such assessment.

ezstreet5

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The report should consider all the things you mention. Any extension of the WRC will ultimately be assessed under the Public Spending Code;

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/public-spending-code/

I wonder how WRC Phase 1 would have faired out if it was subject to such assessment.

I'm not familiar with the process, but is it your understanding that the Financial and Economic Appraisal of the WRC extension, when subjected to the VFMR and FPA requirements of the Public Spending Code, will yield a definitive and binding "yes" or "no" for the project? Or does the outcome still require a discretionary decision which can be affected by overriding considerations?

Do we know if this review has commenced, and how long it make take? It sounds time consuming.

Pete_Cavan

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I'm not familiar with the process, but is it your understanding that the Financial and Economic Appraisal of the WRC extension, when subjected to the VFMR and FPA requirements of the Public Spending Code, will yield a definitive and binding "yes" or "no" for the project? Or does the outcome still require a discretionary decision which can be affected by overriding considerations?

Do we know if this review has commenced, and how long it make take? It sounds time consuming.

I don't have any more than a basic knowledge of the process. I don't know if it uses the words "yes" or "no" but it should give enough comfort that this is worth spending €Xm (or multiple Xs) of taxpayers money on. The point is to take into account as much of the overriding considerations as possible and take the discretionary decisions out of it.

The report that has been produced really should take cognisance of the PSC and be a step in the process.

westtip

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I don't have any more than a basic knowledge of the process. I don't know if it uses the words "yes" or "no" but it should give enough comfort that this is worth spending €Xm (or multiple Xs) of taxpayers money on. The point is to take into account as much of the overriding considerations as possible and take the discretionary decisions out of it.

The report that has been produced really should take cognisance of the PSC and be a step in the process.

they say it has to go through PSC scrutiny before it is published and then put to cabinet - only then will it be published. lets be honest if the WRC was such a great idea with masses of public support and huge public pressure for it to happen more would be happening, kind of says it all really. It has lost its way in public and political consciousness. it is withering on the vine no matter what anyone says here or in any other forum.

ShaneC1600

westtip wrote: »

lets be honest if the WRC was such a great idea with masses of public support and huge public pressure for it to happen more would be happening, kind of says it all really

While many of the people that support the reopening of the rail may not be as vocal as the greenway campaign it doesn't mean they aren't there. There are plenty of rail supporters in the towns the railway passes through, i know because I live in one and work in another. Another reason they are not as vocal might be because many of them work, that can take up lots of free time. WOT has near 7000 followers on FB, its not all one way traffic in fairness.

River Suir

This week’s Mayo News editorial pulls no punches on the need to invest in the Western Rail Corridor. More on this at https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wordpress.com/2020/08/21/mayo-news-editorial-on-western-rail-corridor/

[Deleted User]

River Suir wrote: »

This week’s Mayo News editorial pulls no punches on the need to invest in the Western Rail Corridor. More on this at https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wordpress.com/2020/08/21/mayo-news-editorial-on-western-rail-corridor/

A quote from the article states

The Western Rail Corridor has the potential to be a hugely positive first step in a different approach to the regions and to the west.

Can you, or anyone else, outline what benefits the opened section has brought to Gort, Ardrahan or Craughwell since it opened. These can be social, economic or other.

Genuinely interested in the results

westtip

River Suir wrote: »

This week’s Mayo News editorial pulls no punches on the need to invest in the Western Rail Corridor. More on this at https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wordpress.com/2020/08/21/mayo-news-editorial-on-western-rail-corridor/

Here we go again me old cocker spaniel a small insignificant paper in Mayo claims the WRC will be the panacea for the west and once again compares it with Knock Airport, when will they tire of comparing the idea of Knock with the western rail corridor where do they get that comparison from. No mention of the fact that the WRC is getting due consideration via the rail review report and referral to PAC, so what happens if this process; which by the way West on Track welcomed says no to the railway. There is no considered balanced view in this editorial old boy, it simply says this is our view build this railway. Oh by the way they also talk about taking it to Sligo and not a mention of the 300,000 the Minister of Transport has invested in that part of the route recently. When will papers like the Mayo News and Western People realise the reality of what is going on. This editorial is hilarity beyond belief enjoy it with a beer on a Friday evening. Then give it the chip paper treatment. I think that is a fair view isn't it? To be Suir to be suir

Muckyboots

River Suir wrote: »

This week’s Mayo News editorial pulls no punches on the need to invest in the Western Rail Corridor. More on this at https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wordpress.com/2020/08/21/mayo-news-editorial-on-western-rail-corridor/

Knock Airport was a piped dream that went horribly right.

ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

Here we go again me old cocker spaniel a small insignificant paper in Mayo claims the WRC will be the panacea for the west and once again compares it with Knock Airport, when will they tire of comparing the idea of Knock with the western rail corridor where do they get that comparison from. No mention of the fact that the WRC is getting due consideration via the rail review report and referral to PAC, so what happens if this process; which by the way West on Track welcomed says no to the railway. There is no considered balanced view in this editorial old boy, it simply says this is our view build this railway. Oh by the way they also talk about taking it to Sligo and not a mention of the 300,000 the Minister of Transport has invested in that part of the route recently. When will papers like the Mayo News and Western People realise the reality of what is going on. This editorial is hilarity beyond belief enjoy it with a beer on a Friday evening. Then give it the chip paper treatment. I think that is a fair view isn't it? To be Suir to be suir

This was a an opinion piece, nothing more. I would equally accuse the Tuam Herald with the same low level reporting that your claim. And 0.3 million out of a 4.5m pump-priming fund is not indicative of anything. The perpetual extreme drama of your posts is wearing thin.

westtip

ezstreet5 wrote: »

This was a an opinion piece, nothing more. I would equally accuse the Tuam Herald with the same low level reporting that your claim. And 0.3 million out of a 4.5m pump-priming fund is not indicative of anything. The perpetual extreme drama of your posts is wearing thin.

Yeah but I enjoy writing them, the whole thing is just a piece of trivial entertainment at this stage, the fact you find them "extreme drama that wears thin" is to me a compliment so keep taking the pills.:D

...oh......Anyway what the 300,000 for the Sligo section does effectively say is that the PA in that county is now fully committed. It says the greenway is a one way ticket on that line, it says that East Mayo is going to get really p****sed off when cyclists start heading north out of Charlestown......is that enough extreme drama for one day? hey ho, on we go

River Suir

westtip wrote: »

Yeah but I enjoy writing them, the whole thing is just a piece of trivial entertainment at this stage, the fact you find them "extreme drama that wears thin" is to me a compliment so keep taking the pills.:D

...oh......Anyway what the 300,000 for the Sligo section does effectively say is that the PA in that county is now fully committed. It says the greenway is a one way ticket on that line, it says that East Mayo is going to get really p****sed off when cyclists start heading north out of Charlestown......is that enough extreme drama for one day? hey ho, on we go

Fr Fintan Stack’s famous quote from Father Ted springs to mind;

“I’ve had my fun and that’s all that matters”

westtip

River Suir wrote: »

Fr Fintan Stack’s famous quote from Father Ted springs to mind;

“I’ve had my fun and that’s all that matters”

Got a much better quote for you this time from the Connacht Tribune

when the bridge over the N63 Galway to Roscommon roadway was lifted off by a giant crane, probably never to be replaced again..

Another one to dwell on https://connachttribune.ie/end-era-bridge-ballyglunin-leaves-track/

Tootle pip.

Greaney

westtip wrote: »

lets be honest if the WRC was such a great idea with masses of public support and huge public pressure for it to happen more would be happening,

Let's be even more honest, if public pressure made anything happen in this country, we would
1) Close all direct provision centres and find an alternative system
2) Have covid testing at airports
3) Build more local Authority housing
4) Actually enforce our by-laws with regard to traffic management, dereliction, anti-social behavior & environmental guidelines

For the 'public' to have real input into policy, they have to have more than opinions going on ...;)

ShaneC1600

westtip wrote: »

Got a much better quote for you this time from the Connacht Tribune

Another one to dwell on https://connachttribune.ie/end-era-bridge-ballyglunin-leaves-track/

Tootle pip.

Would there not be a pedestrian bridge installed if its only a greenway that's built?

westtip

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Would there not be a pedestrian bridge installed if its only a greenway that's built?

Indeed Shane and that is all we will ever see cross that road again, but Suir we all know that.

westtip

Greaney wrote: »

Let's be even more honest, if public pressure made anything happen in this country, we would
1) Close all direct provision centres and find an alternative system
2) Have covid testing at airports
3) Build more local Authority housing
4) Actually enforce our by-laws with regard to traffic management, dereliction, anti-social behavior & environmental guidelines

For the 'public' to have real input into policy, they have to have more than opinions going on ...;)

Well it was public opinion and campaigning pressure that got the Sligo Greenway as far as it has and the same could probably be said of the QMG and their feasibility study. Without the change in public opinion and the funnelling of that public opinion into pressure on politicians neither of these two projects would be much further forward.

Greaney

westtip wrote: »

Well it was public opinion and campaigning pressure that got the Sligo Greenway as far as it has and the same could probably be said of the QMG and their feasibility study. Without the change in public opinion and the funnelling of that public opinion into pressure on politicians neither of these two projects would be much further forward.

Now you're just contradicting the comment you made that I was replying to :rolleyes:

westtip

Greaney wrote: »

Now you're just contradicting the comment you made that I was replying to :rolleyes:

Not necessarily, but possibly who knows maybe.....beginning to sound like a quote from the rail report.......

Lord Glentoran

Meanwhile in England cycle campaigners attempt to prevent the reuse of a trail as a railway... https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-53848462

westtip

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Meanwhile in England cycle campaigners attempt to prevent the reuse of a trail as a railway... https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-53848462

And that is why.....Irish Rail will only allow a greenway on a license basis with a strict legal contract to say if the route is needed for rail then so be it. Surprised in truth as this trail is a real tourist honeypot, its one I did three years ago. There is probably far more to this story, I am sure they could look at other options on th route - for example an exclusive bus operator say once every hour - with technology plenty of warning of a bus coming along the route could make it safe, I cannot see a massive demand for trains from Buxton to Matlock, but if the railway is to re-open for valid reasons it should and the trail should be accommodated; there would need to be compromise just as there would in East Galway. If the case for the railway proved positive in a few decades time and was to be reinstated after the Quiet Man Greenway had been operational for say 20 years.

eastwest

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Meanwhile in England cycle campaigners attempt to prevent the reuse of a trail as a railway... https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-53848462

'The authority, which owns the trail and is the designated planning authority, said it had not received a formal application for the infrastructure project.'
There is a slim to none chance of anybody coming up with the money to build a railway on this route, this is just a flyer by a local politician with nothing much else to offer.
Sounds familiar.

westtip

Looks like Mayo coco are going to come under more pressure as Kiltimagh Greenway Group re-positions its strategy.

Lord Glentoran

westtip wrote: »

Looks like Mayo coco are going to come under more pressure as Kiltimagh Greenway Group re-positions its strategy.

So not reenacting Kevin Rowland’s My Beauty then?

ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

Looks like Mayo coco are going to come under more pressure as Kiltimagh Greenway Group re-positions its strategy.

Oh no! :eek:

Del.Monte

eastwest wrote: »

'The authority, which owns the trail and is the designated planning authority, said it had not received a formal application for the infrastructure project.'
There is a slim to none chance of anybody coming up with the money to build a railway on this route, this is just a flyer by a local politician with nothing much else to offer.
Sounds familiar.

Not really, as there's already a successful preserved railway https://www.peakrail.co.uk/ operating on part of the route that has the same long term objective as that proposed by the local MP. Britain is not Ireland and these things have a habit of coming to fruition.

eastwest

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not really, as there's already a successful preserved railway https://www.peakrail.co.uk/ operating on part of the route that has the same long term objective as that proposed by the local MP. Britain is not Ireland and these things have a habit of coming to fruition.

The peak rail project doesn't run on the Monsal Trail.