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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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slave1

Just back from dropping the young one into my town, usually most AC points would be occupied at this hour, town jammed and all 8 AC points empty...paints the picture

ELM327

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Set the rate somewhere between average night & average day rate, so say about €0.13 per kWh, and actually compete with the home energy providers.

Folks that don't have the option to home charge: they get a decent rate..
Folks that don't have day/night meters: they get a competitive rate available to them that's cheaper than their home rate..

Install a sh1t ton of them everywhere and watch the money roll in.

Agree.
Most (98%) of my home charging is at night rate of 7-8c.
Having the AC charging at 3X that rate is silly.

the_amazing_raisin

On a side note I noticed there's a public charging grant on the SEAI website, covers 75% of capital expenses.

Another excellent option for county councils to ignore and then complain they're not getting enough money

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

I don't know, the current pricing with membership for an average driver (17,000km) in a car that averages 16kWh/100km gives a per 100km price of €3.68, that's still about half the price of petrol car and 2/3s of a diesel car.

I don't think the 23c/kWh charge is too bad really - it's just that it seems too near to the DC charging cost.
I expect ECars will inevitably increase the DC cost soon, especially now they see Ionity's crazy charging structure (pun intended

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

I don't think the 23c/kWh charge is too bad really - it's just that it seems too near to the DC charging cost.
I expect ECars will inevitably increase the DC cost soon, especially now they see Ionity's crazy charging structure (pun intended ).

The more people cling to Ionity's PFO price, the more eCars will think that's what Ionity customers are expected to pay. It's all about selling you that subscription so you pay a more reasonable amount. The ID vehicles have a free subscription that provides 55c/kWh, or a membership tier for 30c/kWh.

With eCars we've already paid the big subscription out of general taxation and they are installing much cheaper charging equipment, so will have trouble justifying any price increase.

zg3409

slave1 wrote: »

What's the expense for AC, is it pure labour/installation? The unit's themselves can't be that much, sure Tesla sell 22kW units for €530

Tesla destination chargers are totally unsuitable for esb. They don't even have WiFi built in, (latest USA unit may have), they have no way of billing, they are a single charger not a double, they are tethered which is higher maintenance and a trip hazard 24/7. They are also possibly sold below cost as you need to be Tesla owner to buy one (or hotel)

ESB need dual pillar AC. It needs a display, RFID reader, some form of socket vandal resistance, a phone SIM card with mobile phone modem, and all the back end billing and app control. It also needs to be raised up. You might be looking 1000 to 3000 euro each in bulk, but its the ground works digging footpath, running power to the unit and maintenance visits to reset and repair would dwarf the initial cost. I suspect the cost is more than 5000 per charge point over 10 years life, that's assuming parking space is free to use and you don't have to share profits with site owner. Based on this you would need 500 euro income per site per year plus electricity costs. Or say 10 euro per week. Do, on average, esb get 10 euro per AC charger per week, I very much doubt it. At say 25c per kWh, that's 40kWh or 6 hours constant use at 7kW. Sure busy sites will be fine, but what about those chargers in towns in the middle of nowhere, or towns with 3 pillars? Data could be pulled from ESBs own website for usage but I suspect with fees the AC network will continue to be loss making and so a drain on their resources. If it was easy money everyone would be doing it.

AndyBoBandy

Tesco Artane Castle now showing as active in the eCars app.

Black_Knight

Black_Knight wrote: »

Main Street, Bailieborough, Cavan marked for replacement.

Lost 2 slow chargers. Only 580 reported now vs 582 yesterday. Must try figure out way to narrow down what one has disappeared.

EDIT: Had a quick look but can't spot them. I'll try a better search later, and double check the code.

Down to 112 fast chargers now. No idea where though. I really must try figure a way to identify the added and removed units.

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

Down to 112 fast chargers now. No idea where though. I really must try figure a way to identify the added and removed units.

How do you get the data? You'll probably need to keep a daily record of every charger then search for the differences every time

Black_Knight

cruisey1987 wrote: »

How do you get the data? You'll probably need to keep a daily record of every charger then search for the differences every time

Black_Knight wrote: »

I'll explain basically what i'm doing:
When you browse that map, and open a single charge point, a call is made to their backend to get information (name, address, speed, availability etc.) on that charge point. Charge points are conveniently numbered sequentially so i'm just looping from 0 to X so I loop over every charge point (hopefully, it's not an exact science, as i'm just hoping that every charge point ID falls within the range i'm searching). Every call returns data, or not. For the ones which do, I store that data, and I do an extra call for its peak time usage (but I'm seeing less and less value in that). I also increment a counter for each speed of the charge point it finds. I store all this data in a time series database (holds snapshots of the data over time, so I can see how things have changed over time) and build graphs or metrics etc for whatever I find.

TLDR: I iterate over every charge point ESB returns on that map (assuming they display every charge point) and count each time a particular speed of charge point is found.

I have all the data of most charge points per day. Just looking at the code now, i'm not storing data on charge points which don't have "usage stats", which indicate their peak times. I do however count those units in my totals, so if im getting 112 fast chargers, that means when I go through every unit on ECars map, 112 of them were marked as "FAST". Yesterday 113 were marked as "FAST".

I'll update my code to store those without peak time stats, so going forward i'll stand a better chance of spotting what one's missing.

Black_Knight

I've updated the code. It's running now.

I can't be sure, but the units I didn't track included all the Nissan ones etc, so potentially 1 of those disappeared? Either way, I've not solved a nice simple way to highlight what one has been removed.

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

I've updated the code. It's running now.

I can't be sure, but the units I didn't track included all the Nissan ones etc, so potentially 1 of those disappeared? Either way, I've not solved a nice simple way to highlight what one has been removed.

Not sure what language you're using, but you'll need some sort of database or text file to save each individual entry between days. I've used sqlite3 with python before and it's nice and simple to use

If you're familiar with python dictionaries, I'd suggest using the following structure for each charger

{"db_id": 1,
"charger name": "dublin airport",
"type": "fast"
"status": "online"}

You might want to add other fields as you see fit.

What you can do is save the entries for each day into the database. You then build 2 lists of yesterday and today's entries. One of the cool tricks in python is that you can convert lists to sets and then subtract them. It'll remove identical entries in both sets, something like below

Lost_chargers = list (set(yesterdays_chargers) - set(todays_chargers))

So that'll give you a list of chargers which appear on yesterday's list but not today's one. You can reverse the order to get new chargers.

Then you just query the name field in every entry to see which chargers are lost/added

print([charger for charger in lost_chargers])

Hope this helps

Black_Knight

Using a time series database (had a db spun up for other things so reusing that instance), influxdb. Integrates nicely with grafana.

For some odd reason (perhaps my lack of influx knowledge) getting a list of today's chargers Vs yesterday's chargers isn't proving trivial. Query results seem to not return some units, yet when I check for the charge point directly it is there. I've not had much time to play with it until today. Might throw another half hour into it now before hitting the scratcher.

EDIT:
Found it. Must of been a glitch. It didn't get returned when I ran the script this morning, but it's back there now.
https://myaccount.esbecars.com/findCharger?54.5469030,-5.9372610,11z,RC14,5st

Also figured out my queries a bit better now. Should be easier pinpoint any new/missing units.

McGiver

Kramer wrote:

I don't think the 23c/kWh charge is too bad really - it's just that it seems too near to the DC charging cost. I expect ECars will inevitably increase the DC cost soon, especially now they see Ionity's crazy charging structure (pun intended ).

AC charging itself is fine - otherwise impossible for private operators to compete. But the AC:DC ratio is too high 23/29 which is about 0.8, it's closer to 0.5 elsewhere e.g. Fastned etc.

Either the 23 is too high, or the 29 is too low or both. 23 for AC is too high for sure in my opinion. Should have been <20c. And agree that DC will only increase.

Something like 17c AC and 34c DC would be more balanced.

KCross

I see this in a government report....

Support of €10m from the Climate Action Fund to support ESB ecars in renewing the existing public charging network and rolling out 50 fast chargers (50kW) and 90 superfast chargers (150kw) across the country

I think thats the first time I've seen a reference to the number of planned 150kW chargers?

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

Using a time series database (had a db spun up for other things so reusing that instance), influxdb. Integrates nicely with grafana.

For some odd reason (perhaps my lack of influx knowledge) getting a list of today's chargers Vs yesterday's chargers isn't proving trivial. Query results seem to not return some units, yet when I check for the charge point directly it is there. I've not had much time to play with it until today. Might throw another half hour into it now before hitting the scratcher.

EDIT:
Found it. Must of been a glitch. It didn't get returned when I ran the script this morning, but it's back there now.
https://myaccount.esbecars.com/findCharger?54.5469030,-5.9372610,11z,RC14,5st

Also figured out my queries a bit better now. Should be easier pinpoint any new/missing units.

Nice!!! Great to hear it!

If you have any info about how to query the ESB backend that'd be great. I wouldn't mind playing around with some scripts myself to get a better idea of the usage

AndyBoBandy

great, another 88 new Chademo connectors.....

They should at least (where they'll install a 150kW unit beside an existing 50kW unit) install the 150kW unit as a twin CCS, and remove the CCS from the 50kW unit and make it's DC port Chademo only... (or just give the Chademo side the priority).

Surely it's only a matter of time before CCS cars vastly outnumber Chademo cars??

the_amazing_raisin

KCross wrote: »

I see this in a government report....
Support of €10m from the Climate Action Fund to support ESB ecars in renewing the existing public charging network and rolling out 50 fast chargers (50kW) and 90 superfast chargers (150kw) across the country

I think thats the first time I've seen a reference to the number of planned 150kW chargers?

Interesting, any chance you could send on the source?

Works out at about €70k per charger, which seems a bit low for greenfield installations. My guess is those 50kW sites may be upgraded 22kW chargers

It's nice to see 150kW mentioned, hopefully they'll be well placed along motorway routes. Unless there's any mention of timeline though then it's not worth much. ESB is already well behind with their expansion plans as it is

liamog

cruisey1987 wrote: »

It's nice to see 150kW mentioned, hopefully they'll be well placed along motorway routes. Unless there's any mention of timeline though then it's not worth much. ESB is already well behind with their expansion plans as it is

Can you share the timeline for the expansion plan? I wasn't aware they ever shared one. From memory the tenders were for a 3 year programme of work, we are currently about half way through that timeline.

the_amazing_raisin

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Surely it's only a matter of time before CCS cars vastly outnumber Chademo cars??

True, but until the last Nissan leaf dies then we won't be able to get rid of Chademo. To be honest, I'm not sure it creates that much overhead to include Chademo chargers.

If they'd design the charging hubs properly so that they're dividing up the max site capacity rather than each charger being fixed at 50kW or whatever, then they could include Chademo chargers without impacting the CCS plugs in any significant way, and all the cars could charge in parallel.

Basically like the setup from 17:30 in this video
https://youtu.be/EmuIolKO0qo

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

Can you share the timeline for the expansion plan? I wasn't aware they ever shared one. From memory the tenders were for a 3 year programme of work, we are currently about half way through that timeline.

Hmm, okay I guess it's possible I just made an eejit out of myself. I'd swear I read it was supposed to be completed in 2020 though.

In any case, progress is still painfully slow for fast charger installations from what I can see, there's still huge gaps in the network and not much being done to close them. I've yet to see an ESB fast charger installed anywhere around North Leinster since 2018

Obviously the pandemic will have slowed everything down and that's fair enough. But there wasn't exactly breakneck speed being applied before that

liamog

We all agree they should be faster, and politically they should of installed a super hub by now. I think part of the problem was Shane Ross as Transport didn't give a fiddlers about Transport and so wasn't pushing for the photo ops!

[Deleted User]

Just make garage owners install chargers funded by the oil companies.

Should be law that every charger has more EV points than Petrol/Diesel and I'd make diesel pumps less of a priority going forward, say 2 diesel pumps per garage on any new sites or renovated sites.

There's more than 1 charger company now and more than one access method with charger locations on different apps etc it's all becoming a mess and a turn off.

Every Garage in the country should have charge points.

AndyBoBandy

Deleted User wrote: »

Every Garage in the country should have charge points.

Garages I'm sure will do this themselves to try and stay relevant (Circle K are already going down this route), but who wants to sit in a garage for 20-40 minutes while charging their car?

I can think of a hell of a lot more places I'd want to charge

(obviously motorway services will be prime locations for charging hubs, but they also have the facilities to occupy someone for up to an hour in terms of shops & food etc...)

Who wants to park up in their local maxol to get a 30 minute charge?

JohnC.

It seems like an increasing number of garages are incorporating cafe style facilities, making a charging stop easier.

[Deleted User]

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Garages I'm sure will do this themselves to try and stay relevant (Circle K are already going down this route), but who wants to sit in a garage for 20-40 minutes while charging their car?

I can think of a hell of a lot more places I'd want to charge

(obviously motorway services will be prime locations for charging hubs, but they also have the facilities to occupy someone for up to an hour in terms of shops & food etc...)

Who wants to park up in their local maxol to get a 30 minute charge?

The thing is though, this is preventing mass EV adoption, worrying about chargers, having to look up maps for charger locations, having to plan your journey around charging, queues and charge times, when People can go to any garage that are in every town and village in Ireland and more than one in a lot of places, they'll be a lot more comfortable about changing to EV.

digiman

Just x-posting this from the model 3 thread, as it's very applicable here:

What kind of efficiency are people getting from their Model 3 when charging?

I was using the ESB high speed charger today and the charger was showing that it was sending 68kWh but the car was only receiving 60kwH, battery was at about 70% at the time but earlier when it started and was around 50% it was still losing around 10-15%.

Also, Galway city has a real lack of chargers. On the way from Dublin I stopped at Galway Plaza to try and get topped up as I could see there were no chargers in Salthill and not very many around the city either.

There is 3 parking spots there for the 2 ESB chargers (high speed has 2 spaces and fast has one space), someone was using the Chademo on the fast charger and a Kona was just after starting to use the CCS on the high speed. I had parked into the empty space beside the Kona at the high speed and we had a quick chat and she was going to be 30mins so I decided to just go to Galway as I had enough and didn't want to wait.

Let's say that I was going to wait for the Kona to finish, what's the etiquette here on how you queue up to be next in line to get the CCS? My thoughts were:

If I park in the spot not using the charger I can't really leave the car as I'm blocking someone using the Chademo on the high speed.
There were no actual spaces nearby where I could park so would have had to go to other end of car-park and another car could come in and just assume they are next in line for it.

Also, frustrating that the person using the fast chademo couldn't be on the high speed chademo so I could at least use the fast CCS. It's a really poorly laid out and with the length of the charging cables you don't have much scope for where you can park either.

KCross

digiman wrote: »

What kind of efficiency are people getting from their Model 3 when charging?

I was using the ESB high speed charger today and the charger was showing that it was sending 68kWh but the car was only receiving 60kwH, battery was at about 70% at the time but earlier when it started and was around 50% it was still losing around 10-15%.

10% losses is in the right ball park.

The model 3 could also have been using some of the charger power to drive other things (e.g. HVAC).

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing is though, this is preventing mass EV adoption, worrying about chargers, having to look up maps for charger locations, having to plan your journey around charging, queues and charge times, when People can go to any garage that are in every town and village in Ireland and more than one in a lot of places, they'll be a lot more comfortable about changing to EV.

Yes, I agree with this. Chargers at every petrol station are to make the transition easy for people. The UK brought in a rule that any new station or major renovation requires a rapid charger to be installed.

Black_Knight

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

great, another 88 new Chademo connectors.....

They should at least (where they'll install a 150kW unit beside an existing 50kW unit) install the 150kW unit as a twin CCS, and remove the CCS from the 50kW unit and make it's DC port Chademo only... (or just give the Chademo side the priority).

Surely it's only a matter of time before CCS cars vastly outnumber Chademo cars??

Bit of mixed messaging that. If chademo is going to be such a rare thing, why dedicate a 50kW supply to it alone. If the 150kW units are going to have their own price point, it's another reason to hang onto the 50kW ones. Plenty of cars can't take half the power of the 150kW units, you'd be forcing them to pay up for a service they can't benefit from. Think of those poor foolish ioniq38 drivers

I agree with you about the 150kW units though. Not like anything chademo here can take more than 50.