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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RyanthePirate

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

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RasTa

Yup, Lithuanian quota reached.

Gabija was named ‘Journalist of the Year’ at the 2019 National Student Media Awards

Do you find that award depressing too? I mean it obviously should have went to some Irish.

suicide_circus

I dont think you have to have lived through something to write about it, as long as youre not disingenuous and intimating you have knowledge or experience you really dont.

cassandra1976

I don't know if I find this refreshingly honest or depressing. A reporting job at the Indo would be an absolute holy grail for any 22 year old, but here's one who cheerfully admits her total ignorance of Irish recent history, culture and society, having grown up in a "Lithuanian household". Surely a journalist in a national broadsheet should have a deep knowledge of and immersion in same, even a young one? Was she employed due to some kind of quota?

I've just signed up so I can't post a link - It's Gabija Gataveckaite in today's Independent - "Reeling in the Years is giving my generation the perfect history lesson"

Alejandro68

statesaver wrote: »

I enjoy their podcast, though the whole running joke of ' pegging ' is very tiresome. I know they are comedians but sitll.

You often hear KK blocking right wing nut job grifters from the chat.
The two are by no means right wing.

What is pegging?

statesaver

murphthesmurf wrote: »

After 2 weeks I'm still gobsmacked that you found Triggernometry to be "righting nut job grifters". It's kept me awake at night! They just interviewed a rape victim, it was nothing radical.

I enjoy their podcast, though the whole running joke of ' pegging ' is very tiresome. I know they are comedians but sitll.

You often hear KK blocking right wing nut job grifters from the chat.
The two are by no means right wing.

murphthesmurf

Gentlemanne wrote: »

You've met thousands of Muslims, none of which have made you reconsider the notion that the second biggest major world religion is personally responsible for terrorism and mass rape?

I took a look at the youtube channel you suggested and I saw the same rightwing nutjob grifters (like Sargon of Akkad) that I've seen cause people to become obsessed about anti-Muslim sentiments, conspiracy etc.

Sad when young people get caught up in that kind of thing.

After 2 weeks I'm still gobsmacked that you found Triggernometry to be "righting nut job grifters". It's kept me awake at night! They just interviewed a rape victim, it was nothing radical.

Quantum Erasure

Bambi wrote: »

There is no so such thing as objective timekeeping, its a colonial narrative that disempowers marginalised groups.

1 ÷ 4 = 15

Dyr

Cordell wrote: »

Yes, for example science is not inclusive because it requires a higher education hence it's not accessible enough for the disadvantaged communities and intellectually challenged individuals. Computers are racist, remember that meme in the early 2000s? We laughed about it then, today it will be taken seriously.
There should be more minorities manning personing the nuclear power stations regardless of their qualifications, and if it is to blow up because of that then that's the price we need to pay for a more inclusive society.

Oh the problematic nature of science has nothing to do with financial means, we dont discuss that any more, rich kids who claim to be marginalised feel very uncomfortable about class issues

If you want to see the absolute ****show that is "decolonising" science have a look at James Lyndseys twtter and the hilarity that 2+2=4 caused

[Deleted User]

Bambi wrote: »

Sarcasm is now impossible

And problematic

TBH, outside of the spoken word, I don't think I'm capable of picking up on sarcasm anymore. I used to think I could, but since I returned to boards this year, my sarcasm detection seems to have died.

There are just too many posters online with seriously wacky beliefs, and in most cases, they're not joking.

Cordell

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I know you're throwing in a bit of sarcasm but Ive seen that point of view espoused seriously before. Cant understand how being on time is in any way a race thing.

Yes, for example science is not inclusive because it requires a higher education hence it's not accessible enough for the disadvantaged communities and intellectually challenged individuals. Computers are racist, remember that meme in the early 2000s? We laughed about it then, today it will be taken seriously.
There should be more minorities manning personing the nuclear power stations regardless of their qualifications, and if it is to blow up because of that then that's the price we need to pay for a more inclusive society.

Sir Oxman

Bambi wrote: »

There is no so such thing as objective timekeeping, its a colonial narrative that disempowers marginalised groups.

Was about to chime in myself on that point - *good ol' Washington State critical theorists.

*sarcasm

Strumms

weldoninhio wrote: »

Why don’t you bring multiculturalism to Africa if it creates such a utopia?? Why hoard it for whitey in Europe?? I’ll chip in for a ticket to Lagos for you. I’m sure others would too.

That’s an interesting question, what would happen if xx,xxx thousand Europeans / Irish landed in say Sierra Leone...

Not only landed, but said... “ hiya, yeah look we know things are difficult for you guys here but we want a new life, so each of us are going to need free accommodation, free travel, free education for our kids, free medical treatment for us ALL as well as a weekly cash lump sum to enable us to live and prosper...

There would probably be a couple of admissions to the local hospital from people there from laughing at us that hard.

Wibbs

jmreire wrote: »

I can't see the Islamic Calender being changed, ever.....

or Chinese, or Jewish and dead right too. Europeans and its wider diaspora really need to get off this sackcloth and ashes oh how terrible we were simplistic nonsense, or more to the point stop listening to the screeching hysterical voices dictating this simplistic nonsense, but that's more for another thread.

and I'm happy with the calendar we have. After all, its worked very well for the last 2'000 years.

Well... It needed a few tweaks and a few missing days here and there.

Dyr

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I know you're throwing in a bit of sarcasm but Ive seen that point of view espoused seriously before. Cant understand how being on time is in any way a race thing.

Sarcasm is now impossible

And problematic

Eric Cartman

Bambi wrote: »

There is no so such thing as objective timekeeping, its a colonial narrative that disempowers marginalised groups.

I know you're throwing in a bit of sarcasm but Ive seen that point of view espoused seriously before. Cant understand how being on time is in any way a race thing.

Dyr

Cordell wrote: »

I think we should stop using the Gregorian calendar altogether, it's too white and too christian, that is not inclusive at all. Until we find a proper replacement just stop any time keeping activities altogether.
And in fairness few people know that Jesus was born sometime between 6-4 BC.

There is no so such thing as objective timekeeping, its a colonial narrative that disempowers marginalised groups.

jmreire

Wibbs wrote: »

Sure even that's being tweaked lately to be "culturally sensitive". So instead of BC and AD, we now often see BCE and CE(Before Common Era/Common Era). While common era was a term long in play the use of it in more widespread dating is a recent change. Never mind that we know what the hell it means anyway.

I can't see the Islamic Calender being changed, ever.....and I'm happy with the calendar we have. After all, its worked very well for the last 2'000 years.

Cordell

I think we should stop using the Gregorian calendar altogether, it's too white and too christian, that is not inclusive at all. Until we find a proper replacement just stop any time keeping activities altogether.
And in fairness few people know that Jesus was born sometime between 6-4 BC.

Wibbs

Bambi wrote: »

When people go on about the west not having a collective culture I'm always reminded of Louis CKs joke about Christianity being the winner of religion, his proof? "What year is it? "

Sure even that's being tweaked lately to be "culturally sensitive". So instead of BC and AD, we now often see BCE and CE(Before Common Era/Common Era). While common era was a term long in play the use of it in more widespread dating is a recent change. Never mind that we know what the hell it means anyway.

Dyr

When people go on about the west not having a collective culture I'm always reminded of Louis CKs joke about Christianity being the winner of religion, his proof? "What year is it? "

Wibbs

briany wrote: »

There's no such thing as a pan-western/white culture, IMO. There's Irish culture, British culture, Spanish culture, German culture and so on. People love to celebrate St. Patrick's day around the world because it's all about merriment, singing, dancing and drinking. Not much problem with that western culture. But St. George's day not so much because English history and culture features/celebrates a lot of going around the world, invading places, slaughtering the natives and taking all their stuff, which it turns out wasn't really cool.

And some would say similar of Christianity yet the majority of European celebrations are Christian in nature, though more in name only these days. Never mind the history of France, Belgium, Holland, etc as far as invading places and taking stuff. Which BTW loads of cultures, creeds and colours outside Europe and across the world have done at one time or another. One's boogyman tends to be more about geography, local history and personal worldview.

And as for the contention that there is no such thing as a general European/White/Western culture that's a clear nonsense. From as far back as the Greeks and later the Romans(inc the Byzantines) a pan European culture was taking shape and massively influenced how Europe has shaped its culture, traditions, laws, languages, politics, art, technology, science, architecture, religion, philosophy and so forth right down to today. Hell, you don't have to go much further than Ireland for an example of that. An island and culture on the "edge of world" never touched directly by a centurion's sandal, yet within a couple of generations it became "Romanised" and after Rome was a crumbling memory as a power. That's how much appeal it held. Look at what has become an icon of Irish identity, the GPO in Dublin.

Any ancient Roman or Greek would find that extremely familiar.

Even outside classical world Europe there were massive cultural connections. The so called "Celts" for one. If we were to subdivide European cultures we could broadly define them to three; Latin, Celtic/Germanic and Slav. Even there they didn't stay so separate for long. They all became Christian for a start which brought all the GrecoRoman stuff along with it. Save for a brief period of some Muslim cultural incursion and influence in Spain and later Greece(for longer) European culture has held sway throughout. It would be hard enough to find another similar sized region on the planet that has had such long standing cultural connections. China would be one, the empire that unlike Rome didn't fall. The Muslim Middle East another.

Wibbs

2u2me wrote: »

I
We couldn't get past the definition of 'mix'. You set an impossible standard that no country that has ever mixed is now successful, when you don't apply the same standard to more monoculture socieities, they too have not worked in this impossible standard.

Not quite 2u, I have been quite happy to acknowledge no society is perfect, that more monocultural nations very much have their own issues, but that more multicultural nations quite simply have more added on top of existing problems and the more different the minority populations are to the majority the more problems occur and they're generational ones which seem to be pretty intractable.

weldoninhio

Stateofyou wrote: »

Calm down. You seem to be disproportionately triggered.
Point me to where you took a stand against it.

Why don’t you bring multiculturalism to Africa if it creates such a utopia?? Why hoard it for whitey in Europe?? I’ll chip in for a ticket to Lagos for you. I’m sure others would too.

Tell me how

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

This thread in a nutshell: Someone new enters and tries to argue that we could all live happily together if it wasn't for the vile racists stirring up hate. Wibbs and a few regulars then explain how it's not that simple. They give a potted history of multiculturalism, inter-group conflict, and basically explain how the world works, and the new person goes away.

Or, numerous different people come in and give examples of how multiculturalism has had largely positive impacts on many countries and then there is a back and forth where it becomes clear the arguments against are , 'we don't want to consider that type of engagement between different cultures' and we don't want to acknowledge that a lot of the issues which are blamed on different cultures are practised just as much by people born and raised in the country and after a while the poster decides to leave them with no interest in considering reality to look around at each other and say 'sure everyone agrees'.

Many involved in this probably think Peter Casey did win the Presidential election since that was the last time I saw such a mindset on a thread here which conflicted with reality.

jmreire

briany wrote: »

Peter Casey is a good example of what I mean - he was running for president of Ireland and going on about Travellers. He was getting some publicity because of his focus on a narrow range of issues. That's not to mention that the President of Ireland is supposed to be above day to day politics, and certainly should be above leveraging a prejudice. It's just not what that office is about.

Very true Briany, nonetheless, more than 330'000 people voted for him and given the relative short time he had campaigning, that was a remarkable turnout. Had his campaign lasted longer, who know's how it would have ended? He got that kind of turnout because he was articulating what many people think, even at the expense of ignoring what a President should act and behave like. or the broader issue's.They were more interested in what he had to say about the Travelers.

2u2me

Wibbs wrote: »

I thought my ears were burning...

The ones where you agree with me presumably.

Hey, if you want to argue the patronising rubbish raised and disprove anything anyone has been saying, nobody is stopping you, or anyone else for that matter and you've all the time in the world to do so. And like has been said by more than a few in this thread, if multiculturalism is such a given benefit for all concerned and self evidently the right way to go about things it should be fierce easy to do so. Though it seems it's not so easy at all and a lot easier to point out the negatives and with current and historical examples to boot. Never mind that when questions are put and appear not to be answerable, too often the argument, or lack thereof goes to the schoolyard level.

Actually tbh I've been surprised how vague and insubstantial the positives appear to be considering it has such seeming support among many for it. I did think I'd be more swayed than I have been. On other subjects I've been swayed, have even had a reverse of my starting position, but not in this case. If anything it's been reinforced.

I'm another that usually love to read your posts in other threads, not so much in this one. I popped up early in the thread to dispute what I saw as rubbish with you and it ended in a very fruitless conversation.

We couldn't get past the definition of 'mix'. You set an impossible standard that no country that has ever mixed is now successful, when you don't apply the same standard to more monoculture socieities, they too have not worked in this impossible standard.

Another point of interest I think brought up(not by me but none the less I believe was a good point) was that we all would be interested in helping genuine asylum seekers, some people just extend this to mean economic migrants also even if they don't admit it. They also largely aren't of much value and as we see in Myanmar with the Rohingya it can turn around to bite you in the ass also.

I largely agree with you and others though about how disgusting this multicultural tag line is pushed by the wokes, how anyone who disagrees is a racist etc.. etc... we should be free to discuss it.

But the idea that people have never mixed successfully is laughable.

[Deleted User]

briany wrote: »

There's no such thing as a pan-western/white culture, IMO. There's Irish culture, British culture, Spanish culture, German culture and so on.

There's two levels to culture. The first, which you point out regarding specific national/geographical cultures relating to festivals, food, etc. The second, though, is IMO more important because it defines the primary differences with cultures from other continents. The second cultural perspective relates to our values.

Due to shared history, the spread of Christianity, and everything that happened due to Christianity, forms certain foundational perspectives on values. The value of a human life. The need to protect children. The rights of women. The duty of society to provide for the weakest members of our society. and so on. (yes, it wasn't just Christianity that caused these things to arise.. it's just an example. We could talk of democracy, or liberalism, or any number of concepts/events which shaped the West)

These are perspectives that, very often, you won't find in non-western nations, or the importance of them will be of lesser importance. So, there is a broad culture that comes from western nations which is shared. It's why the league of Nation, or the UN came into being, and sought to provide Human rights across the world. That didn't come from Africa, or Asia, because the importance of these things only came about from western progresses in thought and social conscience.

People love to celebrate St. Patrick's day around the world because it's all about merriment, singing, dancing and drinking. Not much problem with that western culture. But St. George's day not so much because English history and culture features/celebrates a lot of going around the world, invading places, slaughtering the natives and taking all their stuff, which it turns out wasn't really cool.

And yet, a large percentage of the world speaks English, which remains one of the most important languages, and you'll find legal systems based very much on English law. You can find many aspects of British culture throughout the world...

In the same sense, there's not really such thing as a pan-African/black culture. There's Kenyan culture, Nigerian culture, Moroccan culture etc, and they don't necessarily feel some broad kinship among themselves. And in fact, it's questionable whether those even truly exist in some cases as African countries are borders drawn up by the European nations who carved up the continent among themselves and doesn't always reflect the distribution of the ethnic groups living there.

Probably because they've never formed into a unified bloc of any kind, to exert any influence beyond their own localized areas. Kinda hard to unify when your neighbors are attacking you, or you stop every dew decades to have a civil war or commit a genocide.

Still.. nice play on passing all responsibility away from Africans and placing it on European nations. You wouldn't happen to include the Persians, the Ottomans, Marmaluks, etc in all of that, considering they were involved in Africa before the Europeans managed anything. Hell, how about considering all the African tribal nations that were there, who were happily slaughtering/enslaving each other, before the Europeans arrived.

I don't get this rush to ignore the realities of history by placing all responsibility for African failures on Europeans, when there are far more factors at play.

As for black people in the states, well there's certainly a black culture there, but the reason that it's called 'black culture' is because those people were whipped away from their homelands between 500 and 200 years ago, or so, and therefore being black/African and suffering the lasting effects of slavery and oppression was all they had to go on in establishing a sense of commonality, not knowing which part of Africa or which tribe their ancestors had emanated out of.

There's African American culture, and then there's Black culture. They're not necessarily the same thing. And... I'm not jumping down that rabbit hole. America and American issues can stay in another thread. We have enough BLM, or related threads already.

briany

Deleted User wrote: »

Not exactly. If our values are respected then we can live together. The problem is that strong belief or pride in western culture/history has been promoted as a negative. The idea of white people being nationalistic, and proud of their heritage is associated with being right wing, and therefore, something to be pushed down hard. Naturally, when Black people are seen to be proud of their history/culture, that's perfectly acceptable.

There's no such thing as a pan-western/white culture, IMO. There's Irish culture, British culture, Spanish culture, German culture and so on. People love to celebrate St. Patrick's day around the world because it's all about merriment, singing, dancing and drinking. Not much problem with that western culture. But St. George's day not so much because English history and culture features/celebrates a lot of going around the world, invading places, slaughtering the natives and taking all their stuff, which it turns out wasn't really cool.

In the same sense, there's not really such thing as a pan-African/black culture. There's Kenyan culture, Nigerian culture, Moroccan culture etc, and they don't necessarily feel some broad kinship among themselves. And in fact, it's questionable whether those even truly exist in some cases as African countries are borders drawn up by the European nations who carved up the continent among themselves and doesn't always reflect the distribution of the ethnic groups living there.

As for black people in the states, well there's certainly a black culture there, but the reason that it's called 'black culture' is because those people were whipped away from their homelands between 500 and 200 years ago, or so, and therefore being black/African and suffering the lasting effects of slavery and oppression was all they had to go on in establishing a sense of commonality, not knowing which part of Africa or which tribe their ancestors had emanated out of.

[Deleted User]

Cordell wrote: »

There, fyp. We can live together only if we share the same values, and multiculturalism implies that this is not a requirement. With that, we can only coexist, but not live together.

Not exactly. If our values are respected then we can live together. The problem is that strong belief or pride in western culture/history has been promoted as a negative. The idea of white people being nationalistic, and proud of their heritage is associated with being right wing, and therefore, something to be pushed down hard. Naturally, when Black people are seen to be proud of their history/culture, that's perfectly acceptable.

The point is that nations where the native population has pride in their accomplishments, they'll be more accepting of other cultures, because there won't be any possibility of that host culture being diminished. When people accept that Western/European culture was highly successful, in comparison to others, then, migrants won't be constantly seeking to import their own values, because they themselves, will respect the success of western values. That was the case in the past.

The issue is that these days other people look at Western nations and see how divided we are, and it's easy for them to push for change. This need to be "fair" to everyone in every situation makes western nations weak to resist the agendas of those who wish to take advantage.

It's a shame, since I do believe that multiculturalism could work out fine, if there was the right environment in place, with careful planning to integrate migrants into that environment.

Japan is a good example, as is China. Both have strong dominant cultures, with a population who is intent on keeping that culture dominant. Elements of foreign culture is embraced, especially by the young, but the home grown culture remains the core of all values. I've lived in both countries, and out of all the countries I've been to, they've been the most stable from a social perspective. While racism does exist, it's obvious and mostly avoidable if people are aware... but then, every country I've ever been in, there exists a wide range of racism, although with the West, we are somehow expected to achieve an environment without it, even though, nowhere has actually managed it. There are so many expectations being assigned to western nations, that simply don't exist elsewhere, which is a fine target, but the way it's being sought is weakening our ability to deal with migrants and their importation of their own values which are often the opposite of ours.

Basically, western values need to be respected. By both ourselves and by migrants. That really should be contained within any contract/agreement made by any migrant on entry to Europe.

Ten of Swords

Stateofyou, banned from CA for ignoring 2 day threadban