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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why do you think the Protestant population declined. Pretty simple ask, given you are rejecting the reasons anyone else is putting forward.

I know you like to get the post count up but personally I would prefer to just post once but if I have to.......

I refer you back to post #209

Ush1

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Showing yourself up as a bit of a West Brit there, its not a country, never was and never will be.

Well 32 counties were certainly never a country. Never been a United Ireland in its history far as I can tell. Feudal regional kingdoms followed by colonisation.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I know you like to get the post count up but personally I would prefer to just post once but if I have to.......

I refer you back to post #209

Why all the hassle and invective trying to get an answer out of you? Couldn't you have done that when I asked?

Anyway.

I presume you are not referring to the Wiki links that are the first to come up when you google that term?
You are referring to Robert Bury's book?

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why all the hassle and invective trying to get an answer out of you? Couldn't you have done that when I asked?

Anyway.

I presume you are not referring to the Wiki links that are the first to come up when you google that term?
You are referring to Robert Bury's book?

So it's my fault you didn't read the thread?

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So it's my fault you didn't read the thread?

Your abrasiveness and invective is your fault. I missed your post.

Now, is your opinion in line with Robert Bury's book?

jm08

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I know you like to get the post count up but personally I would prefer to just post once but if I have to.......

I refer you back to post #209

If its Robin Bury's book you are referring to, here is a paper that statistically and historically disproves it.

https://sites.google.com/site/protestantcork191136/a-myth-exposed-protestant-decline-in-ireland-1901-1926

For example, in Bury book there was a claim that 20,000 protestants left Ireland for London in 1922. There was a fund set up to help people leave by Churchill.

On 9 November 1922, the Irish Times reported that the committee had assisted 598 Protestants and 1,063 Roman Catholics.[35] The House of Commons was also told that by the end of 1922 there were 4,000 claims and the religious breakdown was 50:50.

I hope Downcow in particular reads this paper and passes the info onto his unionist colleagues.

Junkyard Tom

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So it's my fault you didn't read the thread?

You've been caught out, you're intellectually lazy, and you're evasive because you know you've been exposed. I did a reverse image search on your map and, far from backing up the point you've failed to make, it underscores that it was primarily Catholics and the native culture that was decimated by Protestant/Unionist/British colonialism.

Source.

Here are some free colouring pages for you to print off - it might keep you busy for a few hours instead of wasting people's time on this thread.

Have fun.

Shefwedfan

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You've been caught out, you're intellectually lazy, and you're evasive because you know you've been exposed. I did a reverse image search on your map and, far from backing up the point you've failed to make, it underscores that it was primarily Catholics and the native culture that was decimated by Protestant/Unionist/British colonialism.

Source.

Here are some free colouring pages for you to print off - it might keep you busy for a few hours instead of wasting people's time on this thread.

:P I prefer tractors.

Do you understand what the word evasive means? from your post you don't. If I was evasive I wouldnt have post the link, or the information. Would I now?

Just to clarify:

adjective: evasive

tending to avoid commitment or self-revelation, especially by responding only indirectly.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

If its Robin Bury's book you are referring to, here is a paper that statistically and historically disproves it.

https://sites.google.com/site/protestantcork191136/a-myth-exposed-protestant-decline-in-ireland-1901-1926

For example, in Bury book there was a claim that 20,000 protestants left Ireland for London in 1922. There was a fund set up to help people leave by Churchill.

I hope Downcow in particular reads this paper and passes the info onto his unionist colleagues.

Seems Shef supports Bury's theory that those involved in the Civil War engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing. That is a finger pointed at the founders of FG and FF.

Five Eighth

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

To come back to the original question, is there any way you could look at Northern Ireland as a success, by the standards of the rest of the UK or the Republic of Ireland? I can't see how, given the economy which depends disproportionately on public spending and the very divided population, something seen in very few other Western countries.
It's going to be interesting to see if the centenary prompts some reflection among Unionist intellectuals.

In 2016, Northern Ireland received a transfer from the UK government of €11.4 billion, 22 per cent of its GDP. This is the highest transfer rate from UK central government to any region. The result of this transfer was that public expenditure per head in Northern Ireland was 120 per cent of the UK average, the highest of any region. Public spending in the next two poorest UK regions, the northeast of England and Wales, was between 105 per cent and 110 per cent of the UK average.
This more generous treatment of Northern Ireland has been crucial to supporting its standard of living and in maintaining a high level of employment.
The North is clearly heavily dependent on the transfers from London. This leaves it open to changing attitudes in Britain. Brexit has resulted in a growth of English nationalism and impatience, and a lack of sympathy in London with the “nations” of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

In the painful aftermath of Brexit, it is quite likely that central government transfers may be rebalanced to favour poorer English regions over the Celtic fringe. If that occurs, a sharp reduction in transfers to Northern Ireland, superimposed on a weak economy, could have serious consequences for the standard of living there.

Piece extracted from The Irish Times. John Fitzgerald. Friday 1st November, 2019.Irish Times.

Speaks for itself.

Galwayguy35

Ush1 wrote: »

Well 32 counties were certainly never a country. Never been a United Ireland in its history far as I can tell. Feudal regional kingdoms followed by colonisation.

I thought it was united under Rory O Connor just before the Normans came but maybe I'm mistaken.

[Deleted User]

Five Eighth wrote: »

In 2016, Northern Ireland received a transfer from the UK government of €11.4 billion, 22 per cent of its GDP. This is the highest transfer rate from UK central government to any region. The result of this transfer was that public expenditure per head in Northern Ireland was 120 per cent of the UK average, the highest of any region. Public spending in the next two poorest UK regions, the northeast of England and Wales, was between 105 per cent and 110 per cent of the UK average.
This more generous treatment of Northern Ireland has been crucial to supporting its standard of living and in maintaining a high level of employment.
The North is clearly heavily dependent on the transfers from London. This leaves it open to changing attitudes in Britain. Brexit has resulted in a growth of English nationalism and impatience, and a lack of sympathy in London with the “nations” of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

In the painful aftermath of Brexit, it is quite likely that central government transfers may be rebalanced to favour poorer English regions over the Celtic fringe. If that occurs, a sharp reduction in transfers to Northern Ireland, superimposed on a weak economy, could have serious consequences for the standard of living there.

Piece extracted from The Irish Times. John Fitzgerald. Friday 1st November, 2019.Irish Times.

Speaks for itself.

It seems to me that the entity is n economic failure for sure, but also a social failure with huge division, even 99 years on. Surely time for those who would celebrate partition to reconsider things.

Five Eighth

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It seems to me that the entity is n economic failure for sure, but also a social failure with huge division, even 99 years on. Surely time for those who would celebrate partition to reconsider things.

Apart from the willingness or otherwise of Northern Ireland unionists to enter into a 32 county state, a question which also needs addressing is how many people in the Republic of Ireland would be willing to –
Pay additional taxes of approximately €15b per year to replace the current UK government Northern Ireland subvention?
Embrace a unionist ‘culture’ which revolves around marching with intimidation, flying Union Jacks and painting the union flag on pavements, lighting bonfires, banging the bejayus out of a large drum and repeating the same tune on a flute?
Watch and listen to DUPes such as sneering and smirking Gregory Campbell and buffoons like Sammy Wilson?

Shefwedfan

Five Eighth wrote: »

Apart from the willingness or otherwise of Northern Ireland unionists to enter into a 32 county state, a question which also needs addressing is how many people in the Republic of Ireland would be willing to –
Pay additional taxes of approximately €15b per year to replace the current UK government Northern Ireland subvention?
Embrace a unionist ‘culture’ which revolves around marching with intimidation,

Have you ever gone to a march?

Five Eighth wrote: »

flying Union Jacks and painting the union flag on pavements, lighting bonfires, banging the bejayus out of a large drum and repeating the same tune on a flute?

Have you ever gone to a St Patrick day parade?

Five Eighth wrote: »

Watch and listen to DUPes such as sneering and smirking Gregory Campbell and buffoons like Sammy Wilson?

Have you ever watched SF in the North?

Shefwedfan

Five Eighth wrote: »

In 2016, Northern Ireland received a transfer from the UK government of €11.4 billion, 22 per cent of its GDP. This is the highest transfer rate from UK central government to any region. The result of this transfer was that public expenditure per head in Northern Ireland was 120 per cent of the UK average, the highest of any region. Public spending in the next two poorest UK regions, the northeast of England and Wales, was between 105 per cent and 110 per cent of the UK average.
This more generous treatment of Northern Ireland has been crucial to supporting its standard of living and in maintaining a high level of employment.
The North is clearly heavily dependent on the transfers from London. This leaves it open to changing attitudes in Britain. Brexit has resulted in a growth of English nationalism and impatience, and a lack of sympathy in London with the “nations” of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

In the painful aftermath of Brexit, it is quite likely that central government transfers may be rebalanced to favour poorer English regions over the Celtic fringe. If that occurs, a sharp reduction in transfers to Northern Ireland, superimposed on a weak economy, could have serious consequences for the standard of living there.

Piece extracted from The Irish Times. John Fitzgerald. Friday 1st November, 2019.Irish Times.

Speaks for itself.

I do agree with this, Rep of Ireland cannot afford the North. Not with the mess SF and the DUP have left it in.

lawred2

onh81 wrote: »

Belfast has great bars, loads of hotels, good restaurants and far cheaper than Dublin, much less pretentious and every other person won’t be off their tits asking you for a euro to feed their heroin habit. The opening hours are being extended, Cathedral Quarter (Tribeca) will be having millions pumped into it shortly. Big push with tourism and is becoming increasingly popular with those from the UK as well as those from a Mexican persuasion.

You've never been in Dublin have you?

Technocentral

timthumbni wrote: »

I love it. Some of the best people in the world. If you want to take control of it then be prepared for and pay for republican areas within NI to have the
Highest sickness levels outside of Africa. The WHO were going to send a crack team to republican west Belfast due to their “sickness” levels.

That you Sammy Wilson?

lawred2

Northern Ireland has a lot going for it. Always enjoy my visits up there. Some stunning scenery and some cracking sea side towns. And great folk too.

But when it goes bad up there, it goes bad. The likes of Larne would give you nightmares.

I'd love to see it and the people up there thriving and not spiralling downwards in an identity obsessed vortex of grimness.

[Deleted User]

Five Eighth wrote: »

Apart from the willingness or otherwise of Northern Ireland unionists to enter into a 32 county state, a question which also needs addressing is how many people in the Republic of Ireland would be willing to –
Pay additional taxes of approximately €15b per year to replace the current UK government Northern Ireland subvention?
Embrace a unionist ‘culture’ which revolves around marching with intimidation, flying Union Jacks and painting the union flag on pavements, lighting bonfires, banging the bejayus out of a large drum and repeating the same tune on a flute?
Watch and listen to DUPes such as sneering and smirking Gregory Campbell and buffoons like Sammy Wilson?

But that’s another debate.

[Deleted User]

lawred2 wrote: »

Northern Ireland has a lot going for it. Always enjoy my visits up there. Some stunning scenery and some cracking sea side towns. And great folk too.

But when it goes bad up there, it goes bad. The likes of Larne would give you nightmares.

I'd love to see it and the people up there thriving and not spiralling downwards in an identity obsessed vortex of grimness.

I enjoy visiting too, but really because it’s so unusual, which makes it very interesting. The division is so apparent and strong.

Ush1

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I thought it was united under Rory O Connor just before the Normans came but maybe I'm mistaken.

There was a loose alliance but the history was constant war between the kingdoms, never united. Indeed the Norman's were invited by a dethroned Irish king to fight his "countrymen". That gives an idea of the unity, there was no real concept of Ireland as a country.

jm08

Ush1 wrote: »

There was a loose alliance but the history was constant war between the kingdoms, never united. Indeed the Norman's were invited by a dethroned Irish king to fight his "countrymen". That gives an idea of the unity, there was no real concept of Ireland as a country.

Not so sure about that:

High King of Ireland

Further information: Monarchy of Ireland § Ruaidhrí, King of Ireland
After the death of Mac Lochlainn in 1166 Ruadhrí rode to Dublin where he was inaugurated as High King of Ireland, arguably the first without opposition. He then celebrated Oneach Tailltann, a recognised prerogative of the High Kings, in which he made a number of charitable donations and gifts.[7]
One of Ruadhrí's first acts as King was to invade Leinster and expel its king, Dermot Mac Morrough. He then received hostages from all the major lordships and kings of Ireland to show their submission. However, his power base was still in his home Province of Connacht. Ireland's recognised capital, Dublin, was under the rule of Ascaill mac Ragnaill who had submitted to Ruadhrí.[8]
Ruadhrí's position in Ireland remained strong until the Norman invasion of Ireland, who had come to aid Dermot mac Morrough regain his throne as king of Leinster. Ruadhrí experienced mixed success fighting the Norman and their rebellious Irish allies, losing much of Leinster, along with the Norse-Gael cites of Waterford and Wexford.[9]
He was, however, able to unite much of the Irish military forces, something not seen since the days of Brian Boru. He allegedly led a massive army of sixty-thousand men and a fleet of 30 ships during a campaign to retake the land they had lost to the Normans, in particular Dublin.[10] He drove the Normans out of Kildare and Meath, burning Norman castles at Trim and Kells. This led to the siege of Dublin in 1171. However, the King was defeated after the Normans sallied out to Ruadhrí's camp and killed many of the Irish soldiers as they were resting and bathing. After this defeat, Ruadhrí's army withdrew.[9]
This army was a part of a massive counter-offensive led by the High King which pushed the Norman's out of the Midlands and towards Dublin and the east coast. Despite the defeat at Dublin, Ruadhrí managed to keep control of the Midlands.[11]
The Normans managed to conquer northern and southern Leinster, and parts of eastern Munster. However, this was arguably the limit of their expansion during Ruadhrís reign. A Norman expedition into Munster was wiped out by Ruadhrí at the Battle of Thurles, while the northern kings of Oriel and Northern Uí Néill repelled attacks on their kingdoms and raided and plundered much of northern Leinster.[12]
He signed the Treaty of Windsor with King Henry II of England. Whether he was unable or unwilling to, Henry did not or could not control the Norman barons, who continued conquering Irish territory, while Ruadhrí could not control the lesser Irish kings. This led to further conflict which would continue for centuries. Ruadhrí abdicated in 1183. He returned to rule briefly twice after that. Ruadhrí died in the year 1198. He would be the last Gaelic king of Ireland, except for perhaps Brian Ua Néill (died 1260).[13][7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruaidr%C3%AD_Ua_Conchobair

And then of course, King Henry VIII was crowned King of Ireland in 1542. There was a Kingdom of Ireland (a Kingdom of Scotland, Kingdom of England and Principality of Wales made up the Union).

beerguts

Same old threads popping up the whole time. Lets sum the North up.

Northern Ireland is basically the fat old bird at the bar well past its best but still with a high opinion of itself. It had suitors in its day (Rest of the UK) that gave it a rattle behind the kegs in the beer garden and were caught dirty paying maintenance for the fugly offspring that came from the moment of madness.

We down here are the lad that went to school with it back in the day that the she wouldn't spit on because we were beneath her, since school we have made something of ourselves and have spotted Northern Ireland across the bar. We think we have a shot of getting in there and fulfilling all those fantasies from back in the day. Sure she might throw the fat leg over us as the old suitor (UK) is almost free paying maintenance for the lazy bipolar bitch and she needs a baby daddy to pay for fags and booze, but a part of her will always look down on us and she will never make us happy.

All she will do is **** over our bank balance, talk down to us because her former lover (UK) was so much a better provider, impose her **** on our house (Orange parade in Dublin anyone) and basically have the final say on all decisions in our life (Unionist power brokers in the Dail).

Instead of thinking with our dick lets not go there it isnt worth it.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Not so sure about that:

High King of Ireland

Even if what you were saying was accurate, it is quite incredible that you are going back almost 1,000 years to find Ireland united (apart from with the support and imposition of us brits).
Have you any sense of how many nations have came and gone during that period. Are you suggesting we attempt to reinstate them all?

I am curious, has there ever been a single democratic vote encompassing this island which was not facilitated by british?
Is there an example of anywhere in the world where a group of people continue to claim an area as a nation which nowhere in history has at least pretended to hold a democratic election?
It’s fantasy stuff! The stuff of leprechauns!

raclle

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The division is so apparent and strong.

You don't have to go far to see that. I wish they'd just move on but certainly not in our life time anyway

Shefwedfan

downcow wrote: »

Even if what you were saying was accurate, it is quite incredible that you are going back almost 1,000 years to find Ireland united (apart from with the support and imposition of us brits).
Have you any sense of how many nations have came and gone during that period. Are you suggesting we attempt to reinstate them all?

I am curious, has there ever been a single democratic vote encompassing this island which was not facilitated by british?
Is there an example of anywhere in the world where a group of people continue to claim an area as a nation which nowhere in history has at least pretended to hold a democratic election?
It’s fantasy stuff! The stuff of leprechauns!

It is pure ignorance. Some people in the Rep seem to think they know better than the actual people that live in Northern Ireland.

You will find most of these experts have probably never moved outside the little town they grew up in. Hardly ever set foot in Northern Ireland.

It funny how all these comments are about the "unionist" and how they hate this that and the other. While the poster has no idea the hate they are spewing themselves. This is because for most of them they have had protestant/English/British = bad.

I went to Orange march's when I lived in the North, I didn't see any hate. I just seen families have a fun day out. HUge childrens play area etc

I also went to St Patrick Day parades, which ended up with people all drunk, streets full of sick. People opening fighting on the streets. Now which would you bring your children to? which is safer.

Our resident Francie who seems to think he knows everything, with living "on the border" you would expect at some stage he was interested in what happens in an Orange march and went to see himself? I have good odds on he never bothered in his life. Shows how backward people are, unwilling to accept any change. Good Friday agreement and all

P.S. Im a catho......answers on postcard

Ush1

jm08 wrote: »

Not so sure about that:

High King of Ireland

Further information: Monarchy of Ireland § Ruaidhrí, King of Ireland
After the death of Mac Lochlainn in 1166 Ruadhrí rode to Dublin where he was inaugurated as High King of Ireland, arguably the first without opposition. He then celebrated Oneach Tailltann, a recognised prerogative of the High Kings, in which he made a number of charitable donations and gifts.[7]
One of Ruadhrí's first acts as King was to invade Leinster and expel its king, Dermot Mac Morrough. He then received hostages from all the major lordships and kings of Ireland to show their submission. However, his power base was still in his home Province of Connacht. Ireland's recognised capital, Dublin, was under the rule of Ascaill mac Ragnaill who had submitted to Ruadhrí.[8]
Ruadhrí's position in Ireland remained strong until the Norman invasion of Ireland, who had come to aid Dermot mac Morrough regain his throne as king of Leinster. Ruadhrí experienced mixed success fighting the Norman and their rebellious Irish allies, losing much of Leinster, along with the Norse-Gael cites of Waterford and Wexford.[9]
He was, however, able to unite much of the Irish military forces, something not seen since the days of Brian Boru. He allegedly led a massive army of sixty-thousand men and a fleet of 30 ships during a campaign to retake the land they had lost to the Normans, in particular Dublin.[10] He drove the Normans out of Kildare and Meath, burning Norman castles at Trim and Kells. This led to the siege of Dublin in 1171. However, the King was defeated after the Normans sallied out to Ruadhrí's camp and killed many of the Irish soldiers as they were resting and bathing. After this defeat, Ruadhrí's army withdrew.[9]
This army was a part of a massive counter-offensive led by the High King which pushed the Norman's out of the Midlands and towards Dublin and the east coast. Despite the defeat at Dublin, Ruadhrí managed to keep control of the Midlands.[11]
The Normans managed to conquer northern and southern Leinster, and parts of eastern Munster. However, this was arguably the limit of their expansion during Ruadhrís reign. A Norman expedition into Munster was wiped out by Ruadhrí at the Battle of Thurles, while the northern kings of Oriel and Northern Uí Néill repelled attacks on their kingdoms and raided and plundered much of northern Leinster.[12]
He signed the Treaty of Windsor with King Henry II of England. Whether he was unable or unwilling to, Henry did not or could not control the Norman barons, who continued conquering Irish territory, while Ruadhrí could not control the lesser Irish kings. This led to further conflict which would continue for centuries. Ruadhrí abdicated in 1183. He returned to rule briefly twice after that. Ruadhrí died in the year 1198. He would be the last Gaelic king of Ireland, except for perhaps Brian Ua Néill (died 1260).[13][7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruaidr%C3%AD_Ua_Conchobair

And then of course, King Henry VIII was crowned King of Ireland in 1542. There was a Kingdom of Ireland (a Kingdom of Scotland, Kingdom of England and Principality of Wales made up the Union).

That backs up what I said, you're talking about feudal kingdoms.

It's no more United as a country than when we were colonised by overseas kings. The fact another king Dermot mac Morrough invited the Normans to take lands in Ireland and to aid him reclaiming his shows this. If the Normans hadn't came, Ireland would still have been at war with itself. It was the order of the day, the fact we shared a land mass meant very little, it was simply about kings expanding their territory.

There was never a "United Ireland" of peace and harmony any more than the Native Americans were all hippies who lived together without conflict before Europeans arrived.

onh81

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I went to Orange march's when I lived in the North, I didn't see any hate. I just seen families have a fun day out. HUge childrens play area etc

Did you aye? I’d love to hear more. What parades did you go to?

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It is pure ignorance. Some people in the Rep seem to think they know better than the actual people that live in Northern Ireland.

You will find most of these experts have probably never moved outside the little town they grew up in. Hardly ever set foot in Northern Ireland.

It funny how all these comments are about the "unionist" and how they hate this that and the other. While the poster has no idea the hate they are spewing themselves. This is because for most of them they have had protestant/English/British = bad.

I went to Orange march's when I lived in the North, I didn't see any hate. I just seen families have a fun day out. HUge childrens play area etc

I also went to St Patrick Day parades, which ended up with people all drunk, streets full of sick. People opening fighting on the streets. Now which would you bring your children to? which is safer.

Our resident Francie who seems to think he knows everything, with living "on the border" you would expect at some stage he was interested in what happens in an Orange march and went to see himself? I have good odds on he never bothered in his life. Shows how backward people are, unwilling to accept any change. Good Friday agreement and all

P.S. Im a catho......answers on postcard

Yes Shef...all very understanding and that but where have I ever objected to 12th celebrations that are carried out with respect for the communities around them?

I object to the behaviour of the OO, I make no bones about that, they have fermented hate for another religion in this country and of that there is no doubt. If you want links to that they can be supplied.

I have been to Orange parades (not many granted) and my aunt in Fermanagh lived beside where they would gather after the local parade (the Field) and if you want to see similar activity to what you seen at a St Patrick's Day parade, try going to that part of the Orange day. Maybe it was exceptional but anecdotally I don't believe it is.

The similarity you won't see at a St. Patrick's Day parade is the behaviour you would have seen at the many contentious parades, the ones the Parades Commission (which the 'benign OO still refuses to recognise) had to deal with and still have to 'deal' with.
No similar 'Commission' had to be set up to deal with hate, triumphalism and bigotry at St Patrick's day parades. Or maybe you can contradict that with some facts?

blanch152

Ush1 wrote: »

There was a loose alliance but the history was constant war between the kingdoms, never united. Indeed the Norman's were invited by a dethroned Irish king to fight his "countrymen". That gives an idea of the unity, there was no real concept of Ireland as a country.

Agreed, the British were the first to unite the island, it was the Irish who agreed to partition it.