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Is Boards a Community Forum?

anewme

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058104965

In this thread, the OP politely asks a question if there is anything he can do to stop photos of his house and car reg being shown online as part of his neighbours house sale. It is a valid question and relevant to OP or they would not have posted it.

The first response is "you have little to be worrying about" and there are many sneering, condescending answers to OP, so much so that OP has stated they felt berated and have not returned to the thread.

Most of the moderation seems to be against posters who are pointing out the ignorance.

Moderator (Gumbo) claim they have cleaned up the thread and that there were one or two poor answers- but many off topic mocking answers remain. People grilling the OP to find out why he wants to know and even assumptions insinuating illegal activity or that he is feuding with neighbours. Mods want to encourage discussion - but how is telling somone "you have little to be worrying about" encouraging discussion.

While this thread is on the Accomodation Forum, it is evident across all of Boards. Many decent posters are driven out or mocked and the low quality posters remain, ready to pounce.

So is Boards supposed to be a Community Forum or not?

What actions are Boards.ie taking to improve standards?

One poster asked this question, twice, and got no response, which may be better suited here.

"Here is a question, do you want to be part of an open community that encourages new members, where people can interact with each other and feel welcome?
Or would you rather chase people away and be part of a closed group?"

Poster today was definitely chased away and there are many examples of this in general.

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Graham

While I agree the tone of that thread was not pleasant or necessary there was a total of 1 reported post made 6 minutes before the thread was closed.

Discussing moderation on thread, that's pretty much a no-no across boards. As was pointed out twice on thread while directing such discussion here or via PM to one of the mod team.

Added:

I do agree that many decent posters are driven away by the low quality posters and the drive-by snarky posters. At the same time, if we infracted every one of them the discussion would be about heavy-handed moderation. It's not an easy balance to find.

Reporting a post serves 2 purposes in my opinion. Primarily it brings a post to a mods attention, at the same time it gives the community the opportunity to voice what is/isn't acceptable. I would hope the latter feeds back into the overall policy decisions made across boards.

anewme

Graham wrote: »

As for discussing moderation on thread, that's pretty much a no-no across boards. As was pointed out twice on thread while directing such discussion here or via PM to one of the mod team.

Yes that point is very valid Graham.

Hence I've raised it here.

I don't see it as unique to that forum though, its evident in many areas of the site, that posters are "seen off".

Even the first response to the OP was pretty uncivil and uncalled for but remains on that thread.

I reported a number of posts on that thread, so there had to be more than one post reported.

Graham

Sorry anewme, you are absolutely correct. I see there were a bunch of reported posts in the last 90 minutes or so of that threads miserable existence.

FWIW I think the OP had a valid question and certainly did nothing to warrant the tone of responses received.

Beasty

This is a complaint about a specific issue in a single forum, not sitewide feedback

I see you claim otherwise OP, but I am not seeing that

Moved to Help desk

Beasty

We can moderate specific issues that go against forum or site rules, but beyond that yes Boards is a community and it's content is driven by that community, not the mods

Beasty

Actually, on second thoughts perhaps Feedback is a better place, so I'll move it back

kenmm

I was involved in that thread and it sounds like people are having a go at Graham there - its not the case at all (Think its important to clarify that) - I don't envy your jobs trying to contain some of this madness..

The thread evolved into generalisations about boards (with a specific case of out of context/ cross thread post quoting)

Of course boards is driven by the community, but it just seems there are a lot of cases where people start off asking simple enough questions, get swarmed on in a smarmy (sometimes aggressive or passive aggressive) manner and the OP leaves, leaving behind a thread of petty in fighting.

If we assume that this is a valid problem (and I think there are enough people out there that do), then what steps can be done to try and improve that situation? Do people generally want to improve the situation?
- Heavy moderation doesn't work, we know that.
- Reporting posts is often futile (maybe there is a separate issue there, but based on my experience).

Some people are happy to argue all day long, but at least 3 times today I have witnessed people just
giving up (including one immediate account closure) mainly because if needless tearing posts apart (Including accusations of lies, illegal activity, needless OTT sarcasm and other generally crappy behaviours).

Is that the community that is to be encouraged?

I don't think its a moderation issue btw - maybe in some cases. Maybe its more a platform issue?

anewme

kenmm wrote: »

I was involved in that thread and it sounds like people are having a go at Graham there - its not the case at all (Think its important to clarify that) - I don't envy your jobs trying to contain some of this

Yes, this is not a go at Graham at all, I also want to clarify, but it is an issue that boards.ie overall policies need to action.

The option to report a post gives the caveat "make boards a better place" and this needs some calibration across all forums.

Beasty

anewme wrote: »

Yes, this is not a go at Graham at all, I also want to clarify, but it is an issue that boards.ie overall policies need to action.

The option to report a post gives the caveat "make boards a better place" and this needs some calibration across all forums.

Maybe the problem is that Boards is a series of communities, and those communities may have differing views about how things are handled

I moderated the Cycling forum for a long time, and was CMod for Sports for possibly even longer. I have seen different issues arising across numerous forums as a Site Administrator and indeed being an active mod of both Current Affairs and the Coronavirus forums

All the respective "communities" are different. Cycling has a very strong community feel, with many regulars knowing each other in real life (I personally know hundreds of posters in that forum). Soccer is very tribal. Rugby arguably similar, but equally very different when the national team is involved. Current Affairs was set up with more of a feel of AH than Politics, and all sorts of people drop by. The Coronavirus forum was for a very long time to goto place on the site for anything relating to the virus with an incredibly fast pace (we could see a thread hit its 10k post limit in a few days at one time)

Even that Coronavirus forum has distinct types of poster - those looking for more restrictions, those looking for less, those somewhere between the two, and those looking only for information.

With such diverse topics and "communities" there really is no "one-size fits all" approach

Graham

kenmm wrote: »

Reporting posts is often futile (maybe there is a separate issue there, but based on my experience).

I don't think that's true kenmm although I can understand why you might think it because most of it happens behind the scenes.

On a typical day in A & P we might see anything between 5 and 20 reported posts and for the most part every single one will be reviewed by one or more of the mod team.

Reported posts generally fall into a few 'types'

Clear cut, action required.
Thorough thread review required before you can make a call.
Retaliatory reported posts where a couple of posters are firing them off at each other.
Report-benders, usually after an interaction with a mod that a poster is unhappy with.
Referee calls, where a poster calls on a mod to decide who is right or wrong.
Difference of opinion, where a poster just disagrees with the post.
WTF reports, none of the above apply and there's genuinely no rational explanation for the post being reported. Occasionally seen late Friday/Saturday night!

For borderline/complicated threads/posts particularly those with more serious outcomes, I might ask one of the A & P co-mods for 2nd opinion

Depending on the above, a reported post may need no action, a (friendly) PM to a user, an on thread note/warning, a yellow card, a red card, right the way up-to a forum ban. On very rare occasions you might need to involve an admin if the issue might warrant more than a forum ban.

As an A & P user, the only evidence you might see of the above is a thread note, a yellow card or a red card. If I were guesstimating I'd say that happens for maybe 10% - 20% of the reported posts.

Outside of all of that, the reported posts are a pretty good indicator of what the community thinks is unacceptable. It would be pretty hard for that not to influence a forum to some degree.

TLDR; don't assume nothing happens just because you don't see it.

** all the above is my own off-the-cuff summary, not an official policy.

Dravokivich

kenmm wrote: »

- Reporting posts is often futile (maybe there is a separate issue there, but based on my experience).

What do you consider futile about it?

Muahahaha

I came across that thread by discovering it through the Most Thanked threads function. Clicked in and saw the snarky first response "you have little to worry about" which had something like 50+ thanks at the time (it had 88 thanks when I looked at it again last night) and like the OP of this thread I thought to myself well whats the actual point in asking for help and advice if a poster is only going to be piled on to by everyone else. Why would future posters even bother starting threads if thats the level of response that they are gong to get?

Reginald Smyth summed it up best on the thread

Does everyone who asks a question here warrant a grilling from people? The asked if it can be done, it can’t. There’s no need for making yourself feel big at their expense.

Thats essentially what the thread became, a Spanish Inquisition into the OP by other posters to order make themselves look big and/or to thanks whore.

Beasty wrote: »

Maybe the problem is that Boards is a series of communities, and those communities may have differing views about how things are handled

Thats very true, Boards is a collection of several different communities, a majority of them populated by very friendly and helpful users. Off the top of my head DIY, Motoring, Motorbikes, Cycling, Food are all great forums where a user could go in and ask even the worlds dumbest question and they wont get piled on to. They are all helpful forums with a community feel and if a stupid question is asked posters will just ignore it instead of trying to belittle the OP.

Unfortunately that s not the case with A&P and as a forum it seems to suffer from a lot of low grade posters with their snarky responses and put downs. That forum can sometimes be not a welcoming place for a user as the OP of that thread on it found out.

I dont know what it is exactly but I get the impression that a portion of the userbase there are a bunch of grumpy old men who are not happy in their own lives and they like to project that onto others. IMO it the A&P forum wasnt always like that but the userbase seemed to change circa 2013-ish and it has evolved into what it is now. As a result Ive more or less stopped posting there and instead I go over to the Property Pin or askaboutmoney where you do find a friendly community feel and theres good help and advice without any of the snarkiness that can be seen on A&P here on Boards.

It is what it is I suppose but at the same time i think its sad that a user cannot go onto a forum and ask for advice without getting ridiculed as happened the OP. The mantra of 'Don't be a dick' was broken several times by the responses on that thread. Some posters there need to learn the value of the old saying "If you have nothing good to say then dont say anything at all".

I also feel that that kind of low grade snarky postering needs to be moderated, it adds absolutely nothing to the community and if you're a lurker it wouldnt encourage you to get involved in conversations for fear you'll be ridiculed.Tolerating that kind of low level posting and snarky comments will do nothing to add to the Boards community and attract new users and instead it will achieve the exact opposite and drive people away, in terms of the A&P forum it pretty much has for me anyway at this stage and I doubt Im the only one.

kenmm

Dravokivich wrote: »

What do you consider futile about it?

A while back, I went through a period of reporting (across different forums). Didn't get the impression much was happening, although I take the points above from Graham, which he already shared with me.

But this is only a minor part of the issue. I think generally boards.ie is in decline. Becoming (even more?) of a point scoring match, same people arguing the same points access multiple forums.
Constant drive to paint everything left or right, irrespective of the topic.
Nitpicking to the point posters give up (including the old favourite of trawling post history of posters to somehow win' an argument)

Some areas are more debate like in nature, but the example that started this thread was a straight forward question and it looked pretty bad on the op tbh.

The threads that are more debate like have a pretty low quality of debate, where often the usual voices and tired old tropes are brought out. Where is the growth, what is in the future for this place? And does anyone really care?

HildaOgdenx

Muahahaha wrote: »

I came across that thread by discovering it through the Most Thanked threads function. Clicked in and saw the snarky first response "you have little to worry about" which had something like 50+ thanks at the time (it had 88 thanks when I looked at it again last night) and like the OP of this thread I thought to myself well whats the actual point in asking for help and advice if a poster is only going to be piled on to by everyone else. Why would future posters even bother starting threads if thats the level of response that they are gong to get?

Reginald Smyth summed it up best on the thread

Thats essentially what the thread became, a Spanish Inquisition into the OP by other posters to order make themselves look big and/or to thanks whore.

I also feel that that kind of low grade snarky postering needs to be moderated, it adds absolutely nothing to the community and if you're a lurker it wouldnt encourage you to get involved in conversations for fear you'll be ridiculed.Tolerating that kind of low level posting and snarky comments will do nothing to add to the Boards community and attract new users and instead it will achieve the exact opposite and drive people away, in terms of the A&P forum it pretty much has for me anyway at this stage and I doubt Im the only one.

That was how I discovered the thread also and I thought it was appalling that a poster got such a response to a question, something that was of obvious concern to them.

And in what should be a civilised forum. That's not a dig at the mods of A&P by the way. It just seems symptomatic of the way boards is going, as a whole.

What anewme has said in the OP, sums up what I have been thinking for some time about boards.
kenmm has also summed it up, in his post just now.

I don't envy the mods. I think theirs is quite a thankless task.
I do think the likes of that will chase people elsewhere.

Graham

Muahahaha wrote: »

I also feel that that kind of low grade snarky postering needs to be moderated, it adds absolutely nothing to the community and if you're a lurker it wouldnt encourage you to get involved in conversations for fear you'll be ridiculed.

Agreed. Looking back over that thread, IMO early mod intervention might have changed the tone/direction of the thread entirely.

Changing the direction of a thread when it's got to train-wreck stage is next to impossible without resorting to really heavy-handed moderation and I don't think that's something any of us want. That's definitely where everyone can play a part by reporting posts early.

From a mod perspective it can be pretty frustrating to read "something should have been done about X post/s", days after the event and in the absence of any reported posts.

At the end of the day mods are no different to any other Boardsie. We're all here for the chat/banter/debate and we all get frustrated by the few miserable buggers and the incessant trolling.

kenmm

Graham wrote: »

Agreed. Looking back over that thread, IMO early mod intervention might have changed the tone/direction of the thread entirely.

Changing the direction of a thread when it's got to train-wreck stage is next to impossible without resorting to really heavy-handed moderation and I don't think that's something any of us want. That's definitely where everyone can play a part by reporting posts early.

From a mod perspective it can be pretty frustrating to read "something should have been done about X post/s", days after the event and in the absence of any reported posts.

At the end of the day mods are no different to any other Boardsie. We're all here for the chat/banter/debate and we all get frustrated by the few miserable buggers and the incessant trolling.

Its completely unfortunate you are folded into this just because that thread is on A&P and is being used as an example. I can imagine its very frustrating indeed.

This is a general tone issue on Boards I think - and I am not even sure if its an issue, and its an issue we can "mod our way out of".

anewme

Graham wrote: »

Agreed. Looking back over that thread, IMO early mod intervention might have changed the tone/direction of the thread entirely.

Changing the direction of a thread when it's got to train-wreck stage is next to impossible without resorting to really heavy-handed moderation and I don't think that's something any of us want. That's definitely where everyone can play a part by reporting posts early.

From a mod perspective it can be pretty frustrating to read "something should have been done about X post/s", days after the event and in the absence of any reported posts.

At the end of the day mods are no different to any other Boardsie. We're all here for the chat/banter/debate and we all get frustrated by the few miserable buggers and the incessant trolling.

I asked a question before on building regulations and got a similar abusive response. Like this poster, it was a simple yes/no answer and I had a personal reason for asking the question (trespass). The responses were "you need to take a hard look at yourself" and very similar to OP. So when I saw this post, I immediately thought of that thread. I have not posted in Building Regs. since and would not recommend anyone to do so either.

I appreciate the feedback Graham and agree its hard to recover when its gone off on a train wreck.

However, it should be noted that Gumbo as Moderator of A&P was active on page 1 of that thread and was post 8 I think, so had a good view of the quality of comments that had come in on the thread already.

In fact, he asked the poster "What’s the real reason your angry?" This was not acceptable.

The original poster was very polite in their posts and did not come across as angry, just concerned.

This was a very inappropriate response from a Moderator of that particular Forum and did nothing to change the tone of the thread, in fact, if you read through it, it only added to it.

That poster was treated very disrespectfully and deserves better.

Not at any one Mod, hence I am sorry again Graham that you are dragged into it, but it is such a clear cut example of driving people out that is evident across many forums, hence I said it is time someone spoke out about it not being acceptable. Boards.ie is selling itself as a Community Forum (and I take Beasty's point about some Forums being more localised and personal), however, notwithstanding that - Boards is generating profit from advertising itself as a Community Site and has a duty of care not to tolerate this type of low level bullying on the site. It is not up to Mods to come up with a solution for this, each Mod can only do so much - it is bigger than that - it is one for the site owners.

Mrs OBumble

Community does not mean kind, caring and never showing someone up no matter how stupid they are.

All it really means is a non-insitutional group of people.

A discussion forum allowing nothing but warm fuzzies would be out of business very quickly.

anewme

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Community does not mean kind, caring and never showing someone up no matter how stupid they are.

All it really means is a non-insitutional group of people.

A discussion forum alliwing nothing but warm fuzzies would be out of business very quickly.

The Charter says dont be a dick - and when you report a post it asks you to "make boards a better place".

No place for ignorance anymore - that ship has sailed - you should be able to ask a question about property on a forum, well, about property without being made little of as this poster was.

It costs nothing to be civil.

Deebles McBeebles

I agree its not just an A&P issue but that forum does seem to have more than its fair share of needlessly hostile replies to genuine questions. I've seen it in AH and CA too. Covid forum obviously has it too but A&P is noticeable for it.

Abel Ruiz

Muahahaha wrote: »

Unfortunately that s not the case with A&P and as a forum it seems to suffer from a lot of low grade posters with their snarky responses and put downs.

I dont know what it is exactly but I get the impression that a portion of the userbase there are a bunch of grumpy old men who are not happy in their own lives and they like to project that onto others.

'Don't be a dick'

I also feel that that kind of low grade snarky postering needs to be moderated, it adds absolutely nothing to the community

Maybe your posts are not pleasant either?
How come it's okay for you to post snarky comments???

[Deleted User]

Dravokivich wrote: »

What do you consider futile about it?

That the mods will generally side with whoever they happen to agree with in thread and as far as I can see, mods are never overturned on appeal. The best to can hope for is the mod themselves agreeing to drop the card (which I would suggest it's only in cases where the admins are struggling to cover them in the first place)

I have recieved a number of yellow cards for name calling or in one case, being uncivil but yet there's posts that still exist directly calling me insulting names. They still exist despite being reported. The hoops that were jumped through to justify the inaction by mods was crazy.

I know beast above, who has issued me a few cards, states different areas have different rules but there needs to be all-site basic rules and they need to be enforced evenly. Funky enough, I was told that one such rule was 'attack the post, not the poster' but apparently only on certain users

I was also on that thread but left for the simple reason that when a mod decides your wrong, you will only end up getting banned by arguing.

Graham

kenmm wrote: »

Its completely unfortunate you are folded into this just because that thread is on A&P and is being used as an example. I can imagine its very frustrating indeed.

No problem, nothing taken personally.

kenmm wrote: »

This is a general tone issue on Boards I think - and I am not even sure if its an issue, and its an issue we can "mod our way out of".

I'd agree, unless we go Gestapo-mod (no thanks), it's not something we can mod our way out of. Heavy handed moderation is just replacing one unpleasant thing with another.

Graham

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

there's posts that still exist directly calling me insulting names. They still exist despite being reported.

I'm not sure if you're talking about the post you reported at 18:58 yesterday or not Niner.

If you are, I can tell you it was reviewed by me and a note added at 19:35. See previous post explaining the potential outcomes and the limited number of which would be visible to you.

[Deleted User]

i think it's worthwhile noting that a community doesn't and *shouldn't* be value neutral on the questions/threads raised.

that thread is being held up as if it were going to be a font of important discussion, and tbph it's clear that the vast majority of people who read it felt very much otherwise.

if a post- OP or not- raises eyebrows and hackles then whether or not it is someone asking for info or otherwise doesn't seem to me to matter all ~that~ much.

and an OP that seems to be angling to prepare someone to maybe partake in a particular general course of action is going to result in some element of response to that- especially if the OP leaves that vague or doesn't clarify

sure, they dont have to. but i dont think it's ever as clearcut as "someone was only looking for info" in these things. boards isnt like walking into an office its like throwing the question out to a lounge bar on a quiet sunday. the question itself is a position, a lot of the time!

clearly not everyone agrees but seemed worth saying.

Graham

I think it was more the tone of the thread than anything snoopsheep.

It would make for very dull debate if every poster agreed with every other.

kenmm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A discussion forum alliwing nothing but warm fuzzies would be out of business very quickly.

I don't think anyone is saying that and its a bit extreme - I refer back to the original theme:

"Here is a question, do you want to be part of an open community that encourages new members, where people can interact with each other and feel welcome?
Or would you rather chase people away and be part of a closed group?"

That doesn't mean a happy clappy vibe, just a lot of the time (as someone else said) - "if you have nothing useful to say, then don't say anything"

To me there is a lot of threads that just come across as down right dickish - and it is literally chasing people away.

There are two types of thread (broadly):

1. Easy questions with quick answers
2. More discussion type threads

#1 - is the one that often suffers general dickishness ("WHY do you want to know that" "I think thats a weird question" etc).

#2 Often descends into the same old tired arguments full of contrived examples that very quickly go off topic, and they also end up chasing people away, leaving the same old.

[Deleted User]

Graham wrote: »

I think it was more the tone of the thread than anything snoopsheep.

It would make for very dull debate if every poster agreed with every other.

im offering the opposite view, in general id agree that thread was a bit much when the sum total of responses are taken into account

say rather that this thread is imo going a touch too far in what it is arguing for and im maybe going a touch far in arguing for the right for community response being in itself a type of enforcement of norms and standards

Graham

I think I get you snoopsheep.

I don't think anyone is suggesting every thread should run like the vicar has just joined us for tea, at the same time I don't think we want new posters to be run out of the place either.

I do agree with you that heavy moderation (enforcement) is not the answer, an earlier, light-touch might have helped in that specific thread maybe.

[Deleted User]

Graham wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're talking about the post you reported at 18:58 yesterday or not Niner.

If you are, I can tell you it was reviewed by me and a note added at 19:35. See previous post explaining the potential outcomes and the limited number of which would be visible to you.

Nope Graham, that one was snarky but that was about it, user just has an issue with me so its par for the course with him. I appreciate the feedback though.

In regards reports, perhaps if there was some feedback it would allow people to have a little more faith in the system? Im not savvy with the CMS used here so perhaps thats not feasable