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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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Dyr

blanch152 wrote: »

There it is again, the one-upmanship that sees one community delight in prospering at the expense of the other. The Northern Irish education system is a disgrace. That you delight in a slightly less bad outcome for your "side" says it all.

Im "delighting" in it now and we have the assumption that not only is segregation the cause of Norn Irons education ills but that is hurting catholic schools too now as well, fascinating stuff.

The reality is that education standard at primary level in a lot of the UK is **** in comparison to ours

The other bitter truth in the North is that catholic religious orders run high achieving schools and quite often catholics value education more than protestants as a result of the history of discrimination which caused catholic schools to be strongly integrated into the community through multiple connections. Thats not my opinion thats a QUB study commisioned by the NI executive

Apartheid mar dhea

Galwayguy35

TheBoyConor wrote: »

In a similar vein, I don't consider the 26 county republic a true country either. It is the decendant of a creation of the British. The Irish Republic, declared in 1916 is the real state that is analogous to the country of Ireland.

Even if there was a vote in the morning to unit the 26 county state with the occupied 6, it would still be a British creation as both parts of the unified state were british creations and unification of these the north and southtoday could only happen with the agreement of the British. I wouldn't consider it any more than an "anschluss".

If that were to happen, there would have to be a re-proclamation of the Irish Republic.

What on earth are you on about?

I was simply saying its ridiculous calling 6 counties a country.

Five Eighth

blanch152 wrote: »

This is the key to the future.

There is nothing inherently wrong about Northern Ireland. It is bigger and more populous than other European states - it is on a par with Latvia, and bigger than Estonia, Malta and Cyprus, all nations that can take their place on the EU stage.

The rise in the Northern Ireland identity offers the best hope for the future. An independent Northern Ireland (Ulster?) that recognises and embraces both its British heritage and its Irish heritage in different ways.

After all, identity and nationality need not be tied to territory. The Irish diaspora is evidence of this.

Some points about Northern Ireland that maybe some unionist or loyalist contributors could address –
1. How can the unionist population continue to talk about democracy when they did not, in the first instance, accept the democratic will of the Irish people and threatened force to establish Northern Ireland?
2. Why do unionists and loyalists insist on referring to Northern Ireland as ‘Ulster’ when, in fact, NI consists of ‘North-east Ulster’?
3. How long do unionists and loyalists expect the London exchequer to continue to support Northern Ireland to the tune of approximately £10-12bn per year?
4. What’s the plan when eventually the English working person cops on to their taxes going across the Irish sea to keep the NI economy afloat?
5. What does Arlene Foster mean by the ‘British way of life’, what’s so great about it and how does that differ from the ‘Irish way of life’?
6. Why do the vast majority of the unionist people vote for the DUP knowing that what the DUP stand for?
7. What gives the unionist minority in Derry the right to insist on ‘Londonderry’ being the official name for that city?

FTA69

Northern Ireland will limp on as long as the UK exists but if Scotland ever quits then it’s game over for Irish unionism; the British interest in Ireland is largely predicated on maintaining the wider union. If that’s no longer viable you’ll see a long term strategy for unity put in place by the British themselves I’d say.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

There it is again, the one-upmanship that sees one community delight in prospering at the expense of the other. The Northern Irish education system is a disgrace. That you delight in a slightly less bad outcome for your "side" says it all.

The facts are that 9 out of the 10 best performing schools (with regard to A Levels) in Northern Ireland are catholic run.

I also thing that far more protestant kids leave schools after their GCSE's to follow some technical training/apprenticeship in somewhere like Shortts.

I don't think anyone is delighting in the poor performance of any kids (who deserve the best opportunities possible), but I don't see how anyone would want to drag the catholic schools down to the same level as the State schools. Perhaps if the State schools upped their game, more catholics might use them.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

An independent Northern Ireland (Ulster?) that recognises and embraces both its British heritage and its Irish heritage in

Forget it. This state is founded on a 32 county Ireland, governed by the people of Ireland, with the British state out, and you'll never be able to wish that away.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

This nonsense again.....a fringe idea that peaked at single figure percent approval and declined since then, held only by the most hardline of Loyalists (most notably the UDA) really isn't much of a future to pin ones hopes on. I'm not expecting much of an upsurge of support for it among the typical middle-class Alliance voting end of the population, who almost entirely are supportive of the Good Friday Agreement, which does not provide for this as a potential outcome.

Poster also needs to get a map out and review his/her understanding of what 'Ulster' is.

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

The rise in the Northern Ireland identity offers the best hope for the future. An independent Northern Ireland (Ulster?) that recognises and embraces both its British heritage and its Irish heritage in different ways.

This nonsense again.....a fringe idea that peaked at single figure percent approval and declined since then, held only by the most hardline of Loyalists (most notably the UDA) really isn't much of a future to pin ones hopes on. I'm not expecting much of an upsurge of support for it among the typical middle-class Alliance voting end of the population, who almost entirely are supportive of the Good Friday Agreement, which does not provide for this as a potential outcome.

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

On the educational underperformance, the key solution to this is desegregation of the school system. Operating almost on an apartheid basis at times, the school system is bound to produce poor outcomes.

However, why would any politician in power change things? Both the DUP and Sinn Fein rely on sectarian mistrust, hatred, fear (call it what you wish) for votes. Reducing their vote through reform of the educational system is not something they will do.

Integrating education should certainly be part of the solution, yes. The key in introducing that would be ensuring that those integrated schools take a, 'best of' implementation, creating a high standard of education for all, rather than to drag Nationalist children down and Unionist children up to meet in the middle.

Your, 'almost apartheid' point is ridiculous hyperbole, as you well know. Apartheid certainly wasn't to the benefit of the historically oppressed group. It is such a shallow use of a deeply meaningful word. The education system in the North is far too segregated yes, with almost half of the children in a school with 95% of one denomination.....no, it isn't comparable to the systemic oppression designed to ensure the continued social and economic domination of an empowered minority.

Your insistence on dragging a rant about SF into it is also quite telling. While they certainly have their flaws, their electorate are those who are doing much better with education. It was SF who introduced the Shared Education Act, so they have done more than just pay lip service to moving shared education forwards. More needs to be done, but it won't be an overnight thing.

Much more significant than this is the need for the value placed on education to change among working class Unionists.....and with all the intent and effort in the world, if you think SF could do much to change this, well I have a bridge to sell you! On this front, Unionist politicians have to take the lead, because they're the only ones likely to be able to get through. Hearing it from SF is likely to have either a neutral or the total opposite effect.

blanch152

Bambi wrote: »

No what you said was:

"On the educational underperformance, the key solution to this is desegregation of the school system. Operating almost on an apartheid basis at times, the school system is bound to produce poor outcomes."

Segregated schools dont produce poor outcomes though, some do.

It is interesting to see you willing to call the education system an apartheid like system because the Taigs do better now. A line of rhetoric thats normally the preserve of the Jamie Brysons and Willie Fraziers (RIP) of this world who rant about them 'uns getting everything now while also yearning for the return of an actual apartheid state

Sure I suppose the end point of Cruise O'Brien syndrome is that you wind up out Unionisting the Unionists

There it is again, the one-upmanship that sees one community delight in prospering at the expense of the other. The Northern Irish education system is a disgrace. That you delight in a slightly less bad outcome for your "side" says it all.

blanch152

mariaalice wrote: »

About 20% of the people in NI consider themselves to have a NI identity, not an Irish identity, not a British identity.

That is going to increase with time.

The feral element on both sides will decree with time but will never die out.

The middle classes will do very well as they have always done in NI, the NHS, good public services, grammar school where 99% get 5 A to C GCSE's, etc

This is the key to the future.

There is nothing inherently wrong about Northern Ireland. It is bigger and more populous than other European states - it is on a par with Latvia, and bigger than Estonia, Malta and Cyprus, all nations that can take their place on the EU stage.

The rise in the Northern Ireland identity offers the best hope for the future. An independent Northern Ireland (Ulster?) that recognises and embraces both its British heritage and its Irish heritage in different ways.

After all, identity and nationality need not be tied to territory. The Irish diaspora is evidence of this.

Dyr

blanch152 wrote: »

As I said, those that support sectarian outcomes will happily support the current educational system.

No what you said was:

"On the educational underperformance, the key solution to this is desegregation of the school system. Operating almost on an apartheid basis at times, the school system is bound to produce poor outcomes."

Segregated schools dont produce poor outcomes though, some do.

It is interesting to see you willing to call the education system an apartheid like system because the Taigs do better now. A line of rhetoric thats normally the preserve of the Jamie Brysons and Willie Fraziers (RIP) of this world who rant about them 'uns getting everything now while also yearning for the return of an actual apartheid state

Sure I suppose the end point of Cruise O'Brien syndrome is that you wind up out Unionisting the Unionists

An Claidheamh

timthumbni wrote: »

Really? Belfast pre COVID was great for a night out. Anytime I was speaking to tourists they were all praising the city. Far more compact than Dublin which is a positive imo. Also unlike Dublin you won’t be tripping over junkies and the like so it’s pretty safe too.[/

That didn’t really happen though did it, Timmy?

Anytime I’ve heard the British, they describe Dublin as a vibrant European city, and Belfast as a dump.
They only go to visit it as if it where a zoo - the peace walls etc.
Can’t get out of it quick enough.

There is a reason why things are cheaper there, same reason they are cheaper in Albania.

Unionists have failed the place and are holding it back :

For instance, they begged for Ireland to help them become pro-business like a proper state, then spurned our help, wasted our time and wasted British taxpayers money and good will.

They constantly whinge about Irish economic success.

Interestingly, this passage explains my first and it is written by a typical chip on the shoulder unionist fledged:

“During our honeymoon in Cuba, my wife and I spent a few days in a beach resort, where we endured an excruciating encounter at a meal organised for the hotel’s British guests. As we chatted to a couple from the home counties, the husband embarked on a rambling monologue about the relative merits of people from the Republic of Ireland as against those from Northern Ireland.

The southern Irish, he theorised, are warm, friendly and fun, while the Northern Irish are dour, humourless and aggressive. He concluded his lecture by asking, “so, which part of Ireland are you from?”, as his wife’s face reflected the dawning realisation that her dinner companions were two of the cold, grim, hard-eyed breed of Irish.

I mention this incident, chiefly because it illustrates an affection for the Republic of Ireland that is peculiarly English “

https://www.thearticle.com/britain-will-discover-that-nationalist-ireland-will-never-be-its-friend/

blanch152

Bambi wrote: »

Not producing poor outcomes for Catholic kids.

Of course your sole concern is the well being of the children

As I said, those that support sectarian outcomes will happily support the current educational system.

Shefwedfan

circadian wrote: »

Where did I say I didnt? What I don't like is people blaring out ignorant points as if they are the source of all knowledge on the subject after a quick shopping run to Lisburn or somewhere.

Most have never even made it to Lisburn. Our resident "I live beside the border" poster has questionable knowledge as well

[Deleted User]

statesaver wrote: »

You're dead right most in the RoI don't give a ****. You might want to start accepting that.

Where did I say I didnt? What I don't like is people blaring out ignorant points as if they are the source of all knowledge on the subject after a quick shopping run to Lisburn or somewhere.

Dyr

blanch152 wrote: »

On the educational underperformance, the key solution to this is desegregation of the school system. Operating almost on an apartheid basis at times, the school system is bound to produce poor outcomes.
.

Not producing poor outcomes for Catholic kids.

Of course your sole concern is the well being of the children

FrancieBrady

statesaver wrote: »

You're dead right most in the RoI don't give a ****. You might want to start accepting that.

Some don't care, no doubt. Not those who can rightfully be called partitionists, they VERY much care, but pretend not to.
Sadly and tragically for the people of the north those in power had to be forced to care.
And when Britain tried to drag it out of the EU against the people's will, the south very much cared because it was as it always was, intrinsically linked to it.

An Claidheamh

timthumbni wrote: »

Really? Belfast pre COVID was great for a night out. Anytime I was speaking to tourists they were all praising the city. Far more compact than Dublin which is a positive imo. Also unlike Dublin you won’t be tripping over junkies and the like so it’s pretty safe too.

That didn’t really happen though did it, Timmy?

Anytime I’ve heard the British, they describe Dublin as a vibrant European city, and Belfast as a dump.
They only go to visit it as if it where a zoo - the peace walls etc.

There is a reason why things are cheaper there, same reason they are cheaper in Albania.

Unionists have failed the place and are holding it back

Shefwedfan

maccored wrote: »

accepting that some people cant be arsed about the other chunk of the country up the road? Thats accepted. Its also accepted that its a pretty self-centered view point.

THing is though - why do so many of you start threads about the north? Or why participate in threads about the north? Like - why are you in this one?

Why are you?

maccored

statesaver wrote: »

You're dead right most in the RoI don't give a ****. You might want to start accepting that.

accepting that some people cant be arsed about the other chunk of the country up the road? Thats accepted. Its also accepted that its a pretty self-centered view point.

THing is though - why do so many of you start threads about the north? Or why participate in threads about the north? Like - why are you in this one?

statesaver

circadian wrote: »

Wind up merchants and general ignorance. Most people South of the border don't give a ****.

You're dead right most in the RoI don't give a ****. You might want to start accepting that.

blanch152

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The suspicion that it would increase over time is likely based on projecting forward the consistent increase in it over the last 20+ years I'd say.

On the latter points, I would agree very heavily. While free at the point of service healthcare is a wonderful idea to me (I'd place the NHS as the British's greatest ever achievement), the systemic gradual dismantling of it by Tory governments and poor top-heavy structuring has essentially left it on its knees. Waiting periods of weeks for a simple GP visit, not to mention the huge waiting lists for important but non-life threatening surgical procedures are symptoms of issues that go far beyond just NI.

Public services and the geographic investment in such can be directly correlated to the historic wish to have a, 'Protestant State for Protestant People'. Trying to get any sort of investment in the more largely Nationalist west was an exercise in futility for decades.

The educational underperformance of the working class Unionist population can also be linked back to historic issues - to grossly simplify, when there were, 'jobs for the boys', they didn't need to push for an education, there was a job waiting for many of them because their father worked there or the likes. One of the biggest failings of politicians and community leaders in NI has been to sit moaning about flags, marches and bonfires instead of trying to do something about this.

On the educational underperformance, the key solution to this is desegregation of the school system. Operating almost on an apartheid basis at times, the school system is bound to produce poor outcomes.

However, why would any politician in power change things? Both the DUP and Sinn Fein rely on sectarian mistrust, hatred, fear (call it what you wish) for votes. Reducing their vote through reform of the educational system is not something they will do.

[Deleted User]

bilston wrote: »

I have to say speaking as a moderately Unionist person who would be open to the idea of a United Ireland...if the views of this thread are representative of the majority in the South then forget it

There are so many offensive posts on here. Many of you guys don't even realise it!!

Wind up merchants and general ignorance. Most people South of the border don't give a ****.

Cork Trucker

Reunification will happen within 20 years if Brexit flops

[Deleted User]

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Very naive thinking.

The naivety is in believing that the beliefs of almost 2 million people is so black and white.

I'm a nationalist from the North. I have many friends from all sorts of backgrounds. I've even been drinking in a very Loyalist pub in Coleraine where the locals were much more interested in the fella in from "Londonderry" than the rest of my friends who had accents from the South.

The vas majority of people just want to get on with their lives. It's always a noisy minority that get the attention (see people refusing to wear masks at the minute for a perfect example).

What I find funny is, the amount of bigotry and absolute bollocks spewed out by wee edgy twats on this thread is just as bad as the bigotry you'd expect from the hard line Unionists like Campbell or Sammy Wilson. It's like an alternative reality conjured up to justify their ignorance on the subject whilst at the same time professing their horse**** as fact.

Naive? Naive is just firing out soundbites "it's a **** hole" "50% of the population hate you" etc. I often wonder if people that say these things have actually spent any reasonable amount of time there.

FrancieBrady

bilston wrote: »

"50% of people hated your very soul"

I've never read a bigger load of t*** in my entire life.

Absolute bull****

It is absolute bull****.
There are so many lazy myths about NI that it is beyond a joke at times.
NI has many problems, there has never been a need to sensationalise or exaggerate.

[Deleted User]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Night_in_November

Shefwedfan

bilston wrote: »

I have to say speaking as a moderately Unionist person who would be open to the idea of a United Ireland...if the views of this thread are representative of the majority in the South then forget it

There are so many offensive posts on here. Many of you guys don't even realise it!!

It's not. I could tell you what I think we have on boards but I would be banned :P

Fionn1952

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Very naive thinking.

I'd say the person that lives there probably has a better idea on whether, '50% of people hated your very soul' based on an accent than the one who claims to have visited once.

I've spent time in some of the most hardline Loyalist areas of Belfast (and lived in one of the most hardline Republican parts of Belfast for a period also), and even there, 50% hating you based on your accent would be a gross exaggeration. As with everywhere else, the majority of people just want to get on with their lives.