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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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Hamsterchops

Shefwedfan wrote: »

But it’s not

I drove up the North today, didn’t see a border, no checking of passport, never even had to slow down, only thing different was the sign posts

So how is it divided?

If you drive from France to Germany there is no passport control either, no hard border and yet you are moving from one jurisdiction into another, and if you travel from the ROI into NI you have entered the United Kingdom!

The Territory is part of another country and as long as the majority of people living in that UK region wish it to remain within the UK, then this island remains divided, both through international law but also within people's hearts & minds and allegiances ....

[Deleted User]

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Everyone should, but in reality very few do. Including all your precious loyalists.

You seem like the type that tut tuts and hates everything about SF and will celebrate and sing a few songs every time a catholic gets done. You’re a common enough bunch too, which is one of the main reasons it’s such a kip.

Catholic? When will all these rednecks learn to separate church affiliation from national politics? Same goes for ‘protestants’. Knuckle dragging regressive views have no future in a modern Ireland.

Shefwedfan

Hamsterchops wrote: »

If you drive from France to Germany there is no passport control either, no hard border and yet you are moving from one jurisdiction into another, and if you travel from the ROI into NI you have entered the United Kingdom!

The Territory is part of another country and as long as the majority of people living in that UK region wish it to remain within the UK, then this island remains divided, both through international law but also within people's hearts & minds....

So I entered into the UK? What’s the problem with that?

You want more pis*ing around and killing people just because you think it will somehow be better?

How will it be better?

The North biggest issue is it has a crowd of clowns running half the government and a crowd of lying sc*mbags on the other. You pick which one is which. Put a decent political party in place and see what it can do?

So far the current two can’t spend more time at home collecting wages as they argue than actually helping the people that elected them.

[Deleted User]

Bowie wrote: »

Its almost like the country was still divided.

It is. Best leave it that way too. Far too many chucky nutcases in Northern Ireland to be contending with. So we’ll stick with a 100 year old tactic of paying occasional lip service, lock up any who get too aggro and if backed into a corner the Irish electorate will show them how they’re not really ‘our people’ when the price-tag is clear to see. Basket case lunatics can stay there, out of sight and definitely out of our pockets.

Hamsterchops

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So I entered into the UK? What’s the problem with that?

You want more pis*ing around and killing people just because you think it will somehow be better?

How will it be better?

The North biggest issue is it has a crowd of clowns running half the government and a crowd of lying sc*mbags on the other. You pick which one is which. Put a decent political party in place and see what it can do?

So far the current two can’t spend more time at home collecting wages as they argue than actually helping the people that elected them.

I don't disagree with you.
I was replying to Bowie...

James Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I meant from a political perspective for the UK Labour party.

I've been called a West Brit for calling NI a country so if the Tíocfaidh Ár Lá brigade want it back so badly they can have it. As someone paying tax in the UK, I won't turn my nose up at the savings.

I know Fine Gaelers and Fianna Failers and those who don't support any particular party who want it. SF don't own the idea.

dd973

JasonStatham wrote: »

NI has great potential, if we can finally get rid of the English.

The English who live there? I'm sure most of them are just there through work or relationship reasons.

There's no nation state called England, they're even further under the thumb of the British Establishment than Nationalists or Unionists up there.

Charles Babbage

Hamsterchops wrote: »

If you drive from France to Germany there is no passport control either, no hard border and yet you are moving from one jurisdiction into another, and if you travel from the ROI into NI you have entered the United Kingdom!
.

If you travel into NI do people give a damn about the UK, the people of Forkhill, of Belleek?

The people are no different than in any other part of Ireland, they have simply been abandoned by the more fortunate.

[Deleted User]

JayZeus wrote: »

Catholic? When will all these rednecks learn to separate church affiliation from national politics? Same goes for ‘protestants’. Knuckle dragging regressive views have no future in a modern Ireland.

Northern Ireland has no place in a modern Ireland.

Shefwedfan

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Northern Ireland has no place in a modern Ireland.

I think you will find you jumped in with”loyalist” and “catholic’s getting done”

It’s this attitude which doesn’t have a place in modern Ireland. As I said your attitude is part of the mantra set by the likes of Sinn Fein. Others as well but in the Republic they are the most prominent at it

onh81

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not everyone

You will find the likes of Sinn Fein like nothing better than to stoke the fire.

Sinn Féin actually condemned the burning of poppy wreaths. I’m not too sure where that fits in with your agenda

Now, if you want my view, I don’t particularly care for either World War, or remembering British Soldiers that died. Quite honestly, I couldn’t give a rat’s ass. They killed plenty too, but funnily enough you aren’t really allowed to mention that. Burning their wreaths though is a step too far, needlessly inciting hatred.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-53795541

[Deleted User]

About 20% of the people in NI consider themselves to have a NI identity, not an Irish identity, not a British identity.

That is going to increase with time.

The feral element on both sides will decree with time but will never die out.

The middle classes will do very well as they have always done in NI, the NHS, good public services, grammar school where 99% get 5 A to C GCSE's, etc

maccored

'Northern Ireland' was designed to fail unless it was propped up by the british government. it shouldnt exist basically.

Shefwedfan

maccored wrote: »

'Northern Ireland' was designed to fail unless it was propped up by the british government. it shouldnt exist basically.

How is it designed to fail?

onh81

mariaalice wrote: »

About 20% of the people in NI consider themselves to have a NI identity, not an Irish identity, not a British identity.

That is going to increase with time.

The feral element on both sides will decree with time but will never die out.

The middle classes will do very well as they have always done in NI, the NHS, good public services, grammar school where 99% get 5 A to C GCSE's, etc

What makes you think it will increase with time? Not disagreeing with you, just curious.

Also the NHS isn’t brilliant, public services are ok if you live within commuting distance of Belfast but pretty abysmal west of the Bann. Educational attainment is also disproportionately lopsided.

Fionn1952

I thought things couldn't get much worse than the fawning view of some Unionists that NI is some sort of utopia and Ireland is still some backwater band of cousin-kissing muck savages...Then along come a handful of lunatics with the ridiculous dehumanisation of a million people, with nonsense like it would be better if they were all, 'wiped out'....Jesus Christ, take a look at yourselves for a minute.

To me, NI is a deeply flawed place, but one which has shown a great deal of social progress in the last 25 years. It still has a long way to go, and to my eyes requires complete economic reform. Once again though, for those looking on from the other side of the border, I'd suggest a look at the local economies of the likes of Donegal or Longford before getting too carried away on that high horse some of you seem quite fond of.

Being from Fermanagh, I do find the discussion around the democratic legitimacy of the formation of NI quite interesting, considering my county was essentially one half of the two county sacrificial lamb to try and make the proposed NI state large enough to not be completely non-functional, so no, I don't expect too many from my locality will wish to, 'celebrate' the upcoming centenary.

Fionn1952

onh81 wrote: »

What makes you think it will increase with time? Not disagreeing with you, just curious.

Also the NHS isn’t brilliant, public services are ok if you live within commuting distance of Belfast but pretty abysmal west of the Bann. Educational attainment is also disproportionately lopsided.

The suspicion that it would increase over time is likely based on projecting forward the consistent increase in it over the last 20+ years I'd say.

On the latter points, I would agree very heavily. While free at the point of service healthcare is a wonderful idea to me (I'd place the NHS as the British's greatest ever achievement), the systemic gradual dismantling of it by Tory governments and poor top-heavy structuring has essentially left it on its knees. Waiting periods of weeks for a simple GP visit, not to mention the huge waiting lists for important but non-life threatening surgical procedures are symptoms of issues that go far beyond just NI.

Public services and the geographic investment in such can be directly correlated to the historic wish to have a, 'Protestant State for Protestant People'. Trying to get any sort of investment in the more largely Nationalist west was an exercise in futility for decades.

The educational underperformance of the working class Unionist population can also be linked back to historic issues - to grossly simplify, when there were, 'jobs for the boys', they didn't need to push for an education, there was a job waiting for many of them because their father worked there or the likes. One of the biggest failings of politicians and community leaders in NI has been to sit moaning about flags, marches and bonfires instead of trying to do something about this.

TheBoyConor

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Showing yourself up as a bit of a West Brit there, its not a country, never was and never will be.

In a similar vein, I don't consider the 26 county republic a true country either. It is the decendant of a creation of the British. The Irish Republic, declared in 1916 is the real state that is analogous to the country of Ireland.

Even if there was a vote in the morning to unit the 26 county state with the occupied 6, it would still be a British creation as both parts of the unified state were british creations and unification of these the north and southtoday could only happen with the agreement of the British. I wouldn't consider it any more than an "anschluss".

If that were to happen, there would have to be a re-proclamation of the Irish Republic.

[Deleted User]

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Being from Fermanagh, I do find the discussion around the democratic legitimacy of the formation of NI quite interesting, considering my county was essentially one half of the two county sacrificial lamb to try and make the proposed NI state large enough to not be completely non-functional, so no, I don't expect too many from my locality will wish to, 'celebrate' the upcoming centenary.

Fionn you should check out the book, The Irish Boundary Commission and Its Origins 1886-1925. It's a fasinating read and Fermanagh does feature regularly in the books chapters.

I got it from a local library a while back and would recommend to anyone with an interest in the formation of NI.

Fionn1952

mehico wrote: »

Fionn you should check out the book, The Irish Boundary Commission and Its Origins 1886-1925. It's a fasinating read and Fermanagh does feature regularly in the books chapters.

I got it from a local library a while back and would recommend to anyone with an interest in the formation of NI.

Thanks for the recommendation, fortunately there is a copy on my bookshelf already.

statesaver

A failure or a striving success the RoI doesn't need it.

#voteno

[Deleted User]

onh81 wrote: »

What makes you think it will increase with time? Not disagreeing with you, just curious.

Also the NHS isn’t brilliant, public services are ok if you live within commuting distance of Belfast but pretty abysmal west of the Bann. Educational attainment is also disproportionately lopsided.

It will increase because it has increased over time and that will go on.

NHS is free at the point of use here its 60 euro, going back to school here its anything from 200 euro to 1,000 euro for each child no school meals in the majority of schools here, in NI school books are free, in NI the vulnerable will get free school meals.

The grammar school issue is a funny one, I looked at the GCSE's for two schools within a few miles of each other the grammar school 98% 5 GCSE A to C grade the other school 52% 5 GCSE A to C, both catholic, here the class warriors would be all over that which lead me to conclude that middle classes in NI like it like that no push for change on both sides, they have a very good life.

[Deleted User]

On the other hand, driving through Fermanagh or it could have been Armagh and coming across a union jack flag on a massive pole in the middle of a field miles from anywhere, the effort involved into that, getting the massive pole digging the hole and putting it up and maintaining it, would anyone want to live in a society like that.

maccored

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How is it designed to fail?

because it was designed to rely on an external government

onh81

mariaalice wrote: »

On the other hand, driving through Fermanagh or it could have been Armagh and coming across a union jack flag on a massive pole in the middle of a field miles from anywhere, the effort involved into that, getting the massive pole digging the hole and putting it up and maintaining it, would anyone want to live in a society like that.

It’s to feed the No surrender/siege mentality that they feed off. I’ve seen it before, you’ll get a tree in the middle of a field in the back end of nowhere, a flagpole, or some other inanimate object and there will be a Union Jack flying from it in some sort of imagined act of defiance. I’ve also seen Union jacks flying from Protestant churches, one of which was in the 26 counties

CrankyHaus

NI was unequivocally a failure by 1972 at the latest. If it had succeeded then Stormont would not have been suspended and replaced with direct rule from Westminster.

Despite our many flaws down south we eventually managed to create an economically and culturally vibrant nation from the poorest and most backward component of the UK. In relative terms NI went in the other direction. So much for the Protestant Ethic.

[Deleted User]

CrankyHaus wrote: »

NI was unequivocally a failure by 1972 at the latest. If it had succeeded then Stormont would not have been suspended and replaced with direct rule from Westminster.

Despite our many flaws down south we eventually managed to create an economically and culturally vibrant nation from the poorest and most backward component of the UK. In relative terms NI went in the other direction. So much for the Protestant Ethic.

Its like a podcast I was listening to on racism in the US, there is tangible proof that it made societies worse off economically, it costs money to maintain a racist state, money which could have been used better ways.

bilston

KungPao wrote: »

Some great golfers and snooker players over the years, in fairness.

But yeah, a basket case of a place.

Visited Béal Feirste for the first time a while back, never been in Norn Iron before. Was itching to get out of the place soon after arrival. Was a bit like going to Liverpool except slightly more than 50% of the people hated your very soul once they heard your Fenian Free State accent. Such a negative atmosphere.

Strange place.

"50% of people hated your very soul"

I've never read a bigger load of t*** in my entire life.

Absolute bull****

bilston

I have to say speaking as a moderately Unionist person who would be open to the idea of a United Ireland...if the views of this thread are representative of the majority in the South then forget it

There are so many offensive posts on here. Many of you guys don't even realise it!!

Fionn1952

bilston wrote: »

I have to say speaking as a moderately Unionist person who would be open to the idea of a United Ireland...if the views of this thread are representative of the majority in the South then forget it

There are so many offensive posts on here. Many of you guys don't even realise it!!

Fortunately as someone from the North living on the other side of the border for years now, I can reassure you that it is far from representative of the majority view. Just a few wannabe edge-lord types playing it up for a reaction.

In reality, that sort of viewpoint is about as common as the most hardline of sectarian views in the North. As with that also, there's a degree of, 'the squeaky wheel' in play. To paint the frothing-at-the-mouth shouting types on either side of the border as the norm would be naive and misinformed at best, or agenda-laden propaganda at worst.