What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Deleted User wrote: »

We need to recognise that many migrants have no plans beyond arriving in a country. In some cases, they've done extremely little preparation before arriving, whether that being learning the language, or having the funds to provide for themselves. Before arriving in China, I took a variety of classes, and made sure I had enough money to live independently for 3 months without being paid.. pretty common preparations, although from conversations with those in Ireland, most hadn't prepared that much. Most had heard about the welfare state, and expected to be supported.

This comment couldn't reek more of privilege if you tried.

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly. I've lived a decade in China... and I will always be a foreigner. It's a fact. Everyone knows this is the case, regardless of my legal status in the country It doesn't matter if I speak Mandarin fluently, understand the intricacies of their cultural norms, or have a dozen mixed children, and live there for 60 years. And while people might think that China is special in that regard, it's not. That's the norm, throughout Asia or Africa, because you are judged based on your appearance.

It's only in western countries that there is the expectation that anyone can become a citizen and therefore a "native". It's not something that you'll find in any other country worldwide, that has a predominately Asian, Black, etc (non-white) population.

Jesus, someone who has spent a decade living in another culture is arguing multiculturalism doesn't work.

I don't see people who become citizens arguing that they are natives but that they have a right to be here and shouldn't be told to go back to their own country. I do see a belief that someone who doesn't 'look like an Irish person couldn't possibly be one though.

And lets not talk about the people born in Ireland and who lived there without leaving for several years to be then told they are not Irish and must leave.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Tell me how wrote: »

Jesus, someone who has spent a decade living in another culture is arguing multiculturalism doesn't work.

I don't see people who become citizens arguing that they are natives but that they have a right to be here and shouldn't be told to go back to their own country. I do see a belief that someone who doesn't 'look like an Irish person couldn't possibly be one though.

And lets not talk about the people born in Ireland and who lived there without leaving for several years to be then told they are not Irish and must leave.

Wow, you couldn't have missed the point any harder if you tried.

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Wow, you couldn't have missed the point any harder if you tried.

I know, it would be a lot easier have this discussion if we all agreed that multiculturalism doesn't work.

Stateofyou wrote: »

This comment couldn't reek more of privilege if you tried.

How does making basic preparations before moving to another country reek of privilege?

Hamachi wrote: »

How does making basic preparations before moving to another country reek of privilege?

Being in a position (financially and mentally) to not work for 3 months in order to prepare for moving to a country is definitely a privilege when compared to the experience of many asylum seekers.

Tell me how wrote: »

I know, it would be a lot easier have this discussion if we all agreed that multiculturalism doesn't work.

Or that we all just shut up and agree that multiculturalism is unequivocally a force for good and unanimously enriches the host society.

Yes, let’s all subscribe to that doctrine, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Hamachi wrote: »

Or that we all just shut up and agree that multiculturalism is unequivocally a force for good and unanimously enriches the host society.

Yes, let’s all subscribe to that doctrine, despite the evidence to the contrary.

And here we are once again at the crux of the matter.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Stateofyou wrote: »

This comment couldn't reek more of privilege if you tried.

Seeing as you insist on using words you've only discovered on twitter in the last 12 months I'll play your games.

privilege

privilege
/ˈprɪvɪlɪdʒ/

a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

In regards to the poster you quoted, yes I think IRISH people SHOULD have a special right over people coming into this country who haven't contributed one cent to our economy. It doesn't quite cover that whole definition of privilege does it though, because the ones receiving this "privilege" isn't the Irish person, nope, it's that migrant who comes here that gets all that special treatment... claims racism when they don't get EXACTLY or MORE than what the thick Irish person gets.

Again:

a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

Is what the MIGRANT gets.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Tell me how wrote: »

I know, it would be a lot easier have this discussion if we all agreed that multiculturalism doesn't work.

And again, a few hundred pages into the discussion when asked nobody has provided any evidence it does work. Are you going to be the latest to run away from the thread when asked?

Tell me how wrote: »

Being in a position (financially and mentally) to not work for 3 months in order to prepare for moving to a country is definitely a privilege when compared to the experience of many asylum seekers.

I’ve re-read Klaz’s post. He never mentioned not working for 3 months during his preparatory period. It’s possible to work and prepare concurrently.

Agreed. Genuine asylum seekers do not have that luxury. They are escaping a legitimate threat to their lives. However, the stats around the asylum seeking population in Ireland suggest that a pretty small % are credible applicants, truly fleeing persecution.

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly. I've lived a decade in China... and I will always be a foreigner. It's a fact. Everyone knows this is the case, regardless of my legal status in the country It doesn't matter if I speak Mandarin fluently, understand the intricacies of their cultural norms, or have a dozen mixed children, and live there for 60 years. And while people might think that China is special in that regard, it's not. That's the norm, throughout Asia or Africa, because you are judged based on your appearance.

It's only in western countries that there is the expectation that anyone can become a citizen and therefore a "native". It's not something that you'll find in any other country worldwide, that has a predominately Asian, Black, etc (non-white) population.

Yes, of course.

Yet the media in Ireland suggest you're Irish after you arrive here.

If I move to Japan, aged 20, and live there 20 years, I am Irish. I am not, and never will be, Japanese.

If an African moves here, they are African, not Irish.

Now, if the African in Ireland has a child born and raised here, is the child Irish?

If you have a child in China, is the child Chinese?

Geuze

Hamachi wrote: »

However, the stats around the asylum seeking population in Ireland suggest that a pretty small % are credible applicants, truly fleeing persecution.

Yes.

The Albanians and Georgians are 100% scams, I think that's fair to say?

The Indian/Pak men involved in the sham marriages - all 100% scams.

The ESRI reported that half of AS arrive from UK - hardly fleeing persecution!!!

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Seeing as you insist on using words you've only discovered on twitter in the last 12 months I'll play your games.

privilege

In regards to the poster you quoted, yes I think IRISH people SHOULD have a special right over people coming into this country who haven't contributed one cent to our economy. It doesn't quite cover that whole definition of privilege does it though, because the ones receiving this "privilege" isn't the Irish person, nope, it's that migrant who comes here that gets all that special treatment... claims racism when they don't get EXACTLY or MORE than what the thick Irish person gets.

Again:

Is what the MIGRANT gets.

Could you be any more childish, or out in left field? Are you quite sober?

Tell me how wrote: »

And here we are once again at the crux of the matter.

Indeed we are. Evidence of parallel gesellschaften, increasing levels of distrust, and the tendency of migrants from certain backgrounds to coalesce in the lowest socio-economic groups are issues documented repeatedly in multicultural societies.

These problems aren’t insuperable. They can be fixed. But how long does it take? 3 or 4 generations? What rewards accrue to the native population? If the indigenous population decide that actually on the whole, multiculturalism isn’t appropriate for their society, shouldn’t they be permitted to voice their opinion and have a stake in the demographic future of their home country?

Hunky Monster wrote: »

And again, a few hundred pages into the discussion when asked nobody has provided any evidence it does work. Are you going to be the latest to run away from the thread when asked?

There have been plenty examples given.
But, of course, they aren't the right examples are they?
Not sure they exist for the views on this thread.

17% of the people in Ireland were born outside the country. There's another example that it is far from a country of natives.

Or 42% of the Dr's in the country are foreign trained.
Or that one of the groups providing meals to homeless and other people in need is a group of Muslim women.
Or that we elected a Muslim immigrant to Dail Eireann almost 30 years ago.
Or our last Taoiseach is the son of an Indian immigrant
Or how the womens athletics sprint team have many members who are the children of migrants.
Or how a group of Irish-Nigerian girls have just won a global prize for an app they developed.
Or how a syrian refugee has played intercounty hurling and won an All Ireland medal.
Or that the GAA has moved from a place of no foreign games to be played in its venues or by its members to facilitating Muslim Eid celebrations.

Are you suggesting that none of these people practise the culture from which they originated at this point? Or that they leave the country in order to do so?
The fact that all of the above exists, which are just a handful (and by no means an exhaustive list) of individual examples are proof that the society which facilitates this is multicultural.

Tell me how wrote: »

There have been plenty examples given.
But, of course, they aren't the right examples are they?
Not sure they exist for the views on this thread.

17% of the people in Ireland were born outside the country. There's another example that it is far from a country of natives.

Or 42% of the Dr's in the country are foreign trained.
Or that one of the groups providing meals to homeless and other people in need is a group of Muslim women.
Or that we elected a Muslim immigrant to Dail Eireann almost 30 years ago.
Or our last Taoiseach is the son of an Indian immigrant
Or how the womens athletics sprint team have many members who are the children of migrants.
Or how a group of Irish-Nigerian girls have just won a global prize for an app they developed.
Or how a syrian refugee has played intercounty hurling and won an All Ireland medal.
Or that the GAA has moved from a place of no foreign games to be played in its venues or by its members to facilitating Muslim Eid celebrations.

Are you suggesting that none of these people practise the culture from which they originated at this point? Or that they leave the country in order to do so?
The fact that all of the above exists, which are just a handful (and by no means an exhaustive list) of individual examples are proof that the society which facilitates this is multicultural.

Fair play to those individuals for their individual contributions and successful outcomes. However, throwing together some positive case studies does not support the argument that large scale multiculturalism is a positive for the host society.

It’s evidence of individual success stories, but is not a building block upon which wholesale social and demographic change should be built.

Tell me how wrote: »

Being in a position (financially and mentally) to not work for 3 months in order to prepare for moving to a country is definitely a privilege when compared to the experience of many asylum seekers.

Except, I'm not an asylum seeker, nor was I referring to asylum seekers, which was pretty obvious from my post.

Ye guys are working too hard to miss really obvious points,

:rolleyes:

Stateofyou wrote: »

Firstly, some of that makes no sense whatsoever. Those people do "have a life," as you put it. They're actually living their own life in the best way they see fit and I actually couldn't give a toss what others do for their comforts. Your judgmental attitude says more about you than your judgements say about them. And as an expat who lived abroad for many, many years also knowing many other friends and family doing the same - we all ask for and randomly receive (thankfully!) favourite foods and news from home regularly. Sorry to burst your judgmental bubble but it's not just holidaymakers. I'd even bet that by far people living abroad like to get their comforts from 'home.'

There's a big difference between a two week holidaymaker and a long term migrant and a big difference between getting a care package from home with some Kerrygold thrown in and living in a home culture enclave. And damned right I judge for example an Irish person living in Spain for decades who can't speak a word of the language and hangs out with similar.

As for the rest of your comment, no idea what your point is but you clearly missed mine. Which is that why should anyone be expected to "integrate" into superficial religion/ceremonies that we hardly follow ourselves except again, when it suits us to show off. Once asked my niece what communion was all about, and asked her about certain teachings from the bible and she had NO clue. But she did tell me all about her dress, how the mock hair style appointment went, how many would be at the party, and the bouncy castle that was ordered!

Which has got bugger all to do with my point, but you've decided you've discovered a point and aren't letting go.

Let people live their lives and you do you. Stop being so judgemental.

Everybody is judgemental. Anyone who claims not to be is a liar, to the world or themselves. And I have little actual issue with people living their own lives so long as a) it doesn't affect anybody else's life and b) the country isn't paying for them to do so.

Tell me how wrote: »

There have been plenty examples given.
But, of course, they aren't the right examples are they?
Not sure they exist for the views on this thread.

Actually there have been few examples given right or no.

17% of the people in Ireland were born outside the country. There's another example that it is far from a country of natives.

I know you wouldn't think it to look at NGO missives, but the majority of that percentage are of White European stock, which makes long term integration far easier if they decide to stay. Over one hundred thousand Poles, another hundred thousand of people from Spain, Italy, Germany, Britain, American etc. Add in around between 2-3% thousand Asians, Indians and so on. The vast majority of whom came to this country legally and above board.

Or 42% of the Dr's in the country are foreign trained.
Or that one of the groups providing meals to homeless and other people in need is a group of Muslim women.
Or that we elected a Muslim immigrant to Dail Eireann almost 30 years ago.
Or our last Taoiseach is the son of an Indian immigrant
Or how the womens athletics sprint team have many members who are the children of migrants.
Or how a group of Irish-Nigerian girls have just won a global prize for an app they developed.
Or how a syrian refugee has played intercounty hurling and won an All Ireland medal.
Or that the GAA has moved from a place of no foreign games to be played in its venues or by its members to facilitating Muslim Eid celebrations.

How accommodating a new very conservative religion after we shook off the shackles of a previous one is seen as a positive I don't know. Oh I forgot, it's exotic, it's not White, Christian and European. That seems to be the trick. And again running down your list the vast majority came here legally. Well in some cases they wouldn't get in here legally today.

Are you suggesting that none of these people practise the culture from which they originated at this point? Or that they leave the country in order to do so?
The fact that all of the above exists, which are just a handful (and by no means an exhaustive list) of individual examples are proof that the society which facilitates this is multicultural.

No, it's proof of no such thing. It is certainly no proof of the lack of negatives of following other nations down this path. There's a long list of Black Americans who've done very well for themselves and have represented their country globally in many fields, but only a fool would point to a list of them and say "ah yes America is a multicultural standard we should aim for". You could say similar of France, the UK, Germany....

Tipperary animal lover

Lads it's fingers in ear stuff now, around and around ye go, wibbs your one patient guy fair play to ya.

Wibbs wrote: »

There's a big difference between a two week holidaymaker and a long term migrant and a big difference between getting a care package from home with some Kerrygold thrown in and living in a home culture enclave. And damned right I judge for example an Irish person living in Spain for decades who can't speak a word of the language and hangs out with similar.

Which has got bugger all to do with my point, but you've decided you've discovered a point and aren't letting go.

Everybody is judgemental. Anyone who claims not to be is a liar, to the world or themselves. And I have little actual issue with people living their own lives so long as a) it doesn't affect anybody else's life and b) the country isn't paying for them to do so.

Give over Wibbs, just because you by far do the most jabbering on here doesn't make it true. Holidaymakers bring their own paraphernalia. People living abroad also do it. Irish do it. Foreigners in Ireland do it. Everyone does it because it's our human nature, of which YOU are the one who doesn't seem to know about. As for your comment about not speaking a word of the language? Same biased commentary vein you see over inflamed in the US, to the point where you see viral videos of white people screaming obscenities in the faces of others who are speaking the language of their birth. And how dare they. It's not that they don't have "a word" of English, because most do and most are working to acquire it. And if you're living in a country and in which you speak English and the host country also widely speaks English, then there's no need for fluency. Rich comments coming from any citizen in this country when the majority of us are far from fluent in Irish and only have the cupla focal. The average Irish person in Spain won't be speaking Irish anyway, lol.

As long as the country isn't paying them to do so? First of all most stable countries have immigration/refugee routes and various supports in place. Pretty normal stuff. You're really on a whole other level (high horse level comes to mind) if you think that entitles you to tell anyone how to live their lives. Everyone is judgemental, but the level you're at in which you look down your nose and think you can tell others what to do and how to be and how to live their lives because you think you personally pay for them and it earns you rights over individuals smacks of narcissistic delusions of grandeur.

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

Lads it's fingers in ear stuff now, around and around ye go, wibbs your one patient guy fair play to ya.

I'm not sure about patience and me T.

It's mostly to do with my inbuilt suspicion for Accepted(and Acceptable) Truths(tm) that aren't to be probed. Doubly so where they don't stand up to much scrutiny when probed, but so many still believe them.

Stateofyou wrote: »

Give over Wibbs, just because you by far do the most jabbering on here doesn't make it true...

.... You're really on a whole other level (high horse level comes to mind) if you think that entitles you to tell anyone how to live their lives. Everyone is judgemental, but the level you're at in which you look down your nose and think you can tell others what to do and how to be and how to live their lives because you think you personally pay for them and it earns you rights over individuals smacks of narcissistic delusions of grandeur.

This thread has deviated so wildly off course that it’s becoming ridiculous.

Is it possible to argue the merits and de-merits of the multicultural model for Ireland and other European societies, without launching personal attacks on another poster?

This level of spite and vitriol isn’t really conducive to an exchange of ideas..

Stateofyou wrote: »

Give over Wibbs, just because you by far do the most jabbering on here doesn't make it true. Holidaymakers bring their own paraphernalia. People living abroad also do it. Irish do it. Foreigners in Ireland do it. Everyone does it because it's our human nature, of which YOU are the one who doesn't seem to know about. As for your comment about not speaking a word of the language? Same biased commentary vein you see over inflamed in the US, to the point where you see viral videos of white people screaming obscenities in the faces of others who are speaking the language of their birth. And how dare they. It's not that they don't have "a word" of English, because most do and most are working to acquire it. And if you're living in a country and in which you speak English and the host country also widely speaks English, then there's no need for fluency. Rich comments coming from any citizen in this country when the majority of us are far from fluent in Irish and only have the cupla focal. The average Irish person in Spain won't be speaking Irish anyway, lol.

Which again has little to do with the points I've been making. The tangent about the Irish language carries little weight beyond what you think it does. The plain fact is English is our native language. "Multiculturalism" at work....

As long as the country isn't paying them to do so? First of all most stable countries have immigration/refugee routes and various supports in place. Pretty normal stuff. You're really on a whole other level (high horse level comes to mind) if you think that entitles you to tell anyone how to live their lives. Everyone is judgemental, but the level you're at in which you look down your nose and think you can tell others what to do and how to be and how to live their lives because you think you personally pay for them and it earns you rights over individuals smacks of narcissistic delusions of grandeur.

All that seems to be more about your ego than mine.

Wibbs wrote: »

Which again has little to do with the points I've been making. The tangent about the Irish language carries little weight beyond what you think it does. The plain fact is English is our native language. "Multiculturalism" at work....

All that seems to be more about your ego than mine.

English is our native language? Careful there... Did you really just refer to our violent history as "multiculturalism?" You're not worth the time to debate, that's insane.
These tangents are all yours as you are the one bringing them up from a place of entitled ego.

Hamachi wrote: »

Is it possible to argue the merits and de-merits of the multicultural model for Ireland and other European societies, without launching personal on another poster?

This level of spite and vitriol isn’t really conducive to an exchange of ideas..

Well when it does go down that road it is quite illustrative of the paucity of arguments on the side of the debate that does so. And again common in debates around Accepted(and Acceptable) Truths(tm) and you'll see the same thing if you enter into debate with the proselytising true believers of any side where their ideas don't quite stack up.

Wibbs wrote: »

Well when it does go down that road it is quite illustrative of the paucity of arguments on the side of the debate that does so. And again common in debates around Accepted(and Acceptable) Truths(tm) and you'll see the same thing if you enter into debate with the proselytising true believers of any side where their ideas don't quite stack up.

This guy fancies himself as the keeper of Truths (even trademarks it) and deliberately throws in more complicated words to try and appear smarter than you are and you don't think you're coming from a place of ego at all. :rolleyes::pac: