Who is the best/worst Taoiseach in modern times?

Tell me how wrote: »

They're not inefficiencies. They are immoral practices. I get what you are doing but you're not comparing apples with apples.

And, undoubtedly there are immoral practices, if not outright illegal ones frequently carried out by businesses (private and public). Because either industry type behaves in a far from ideal manner, it is not an excuse for the other.

they are inefficiencies, if it also costs the tax payer, the private sector isnt as efficient as its made out to be, particularly at the corporate level, they tend to crush both public and private sector business out of existence, and when it all goes up in flames, the tax payer sorts it all out! a lot of private sector activities are highly dangerous for all tax payers, particularly at corporate level

Wanderer78 wrote: »

they are inefficiencies, if it also costs the tax payer, the private sector isnt as efficient as its made out to be, particularly at the corporate level, they tend to crush both public and private sector business out of existence, and when it all goes up in flames, the tax payer sorts it all out! a lot of private sector activities are highly dangerous for all tax payers, particularly at corporate level

You are right, no argument there, a lot of private practice is careless because they have the expectation that the 'government' will fix any issues that arise out of their behaviour.

But, we will only really see genuine progress when groups or industries or bodies or unions say 'Here is what we can do to improve' instead of 'here is what everyone else should do to improve, but we are doing as well as can be expected'.

Tell me how wrote:

You are right, no argument there, a lot of private practice is careless because they have the expectation that the 'government' will fix any issues that arise out of their behaviour.

Its a bit more than carelessness, it's effectively deliberate, maximising share holder value is failing, it's effectively causing a trickle up effect of wealth.

Tell me how wrote:

But, we will only really see genuine progress when groups or industries or bodies or unions say 'Here is what we can do to improve' instead of 'here is what everyone else should do to improve, but we are doing as well as can be expected'.

Productivity levels across most sectors is at an all time high, there's not much more can be done here, without causing serious health issues, particularly mentally, which is already happening, we have to work on our wealth distribution issues

JJJackal

I am always entertained at how people remember Bertie Ahern

Worst: Bertie Ahern, (I feel sorry for Cowen because he presided over a calamity; which began during the Ahern tenure)

Best: Enda Kenny

Too early to judge Martin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Its a bit more than carelessness, it's effectively deliberate, maximising share holder value is failing, it's effectively causing a trickle up effect of wealth.

Productivity levels across most sectors is at an all time high, there's not much more can be done here, without causing serious health issues, particularly mentally, which is already happening, we have to work on our wealth distribution issues

And this is why there continues to be a problem, 'we are doing the best we can, everyone else needs to change.'

Surely you can understand how frustrating it is for a service industry worker who has long had a challenging work environment possibly with zero hour contracts, split shifts and on their feet all day to be told that because the bankers were bailed out, or because Apple got a tax break, they shouldn't expect any support but they need to support teachers or nurses who are on strike?

Tell me how wrote:

Surely you can understand how frustrating it is for a service industry worker who has long had a challenging work environment possibly with zero hour contracts, split shifts and on their feet all day to be told that because the bankers were bailed out, or because Apple got a tax break, they shouldn't expect any support but they need to support teachers or nurses who are on strike?

You can be damn sure teachers and nurses aren't having a great time at the moment, particularly nurses, we truly need to move on from this public v's private sector nonsense, it's clearly obvious, everyone's getting screwed, just some are getting screwed more than others, which is very evident in both sectors, we have a serious wealth distribution problem, and our institutions, both public and private, are currently defaulting, this is serious!

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You can be damn sure teachers and nurses aren't having a great time at the moment, particularly nurses, we truly need to move on from this public v's private sector nonsense, it's clearly obvious, everyone's getting screwed, just some are getting screwed more than others, which is very evident in both sectors, we have a serious wealth distribution problem, and our institutions, both public and private, are currently defaulting, this is serious!

So what are you proposing is necessary to fix this?

Tell me how wrote:

So what are you proposing is necessary to fix this?

There's loads of great ideas out there, from the use of sovereign wealth funds, to public banks, to this, to that....

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Brian Cowan presided over an economic collapse that was a combination of domestic and global mismanagement. He had no answers.

Yes he did, he went looking for them in the bottom of the glass in the Dail bar.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

But inefficiencies such as monopolisation, rent seeking, bailouts, tax avoidance, etc all seem to be fine in the private sector, particularly in relation to large corporations....

If they didnt get the tax avoidance, then they wouldnt come here. What companies had bail out? I have seen banks get bailouts but never industry as far as I can recall.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You can be damn sure teachers and nurses aren't having a great time at the moment, particularly nurses, we truly need to move on from this public v's private sector nonsense, it's clearly obvious, everyone's getting screwed, just some are getting screwed more than others, which is very evident in both sectors, we have a serious wealth distribution problem, and our institutions, both public and private, are currently defaulting, this is serious!

My sister worked as a nurse in both public and private sector. She took everything for granted when she worked in the private sector when she was training. Look for a file? it was there in the private sector. Went to the nurses station it was loaded and accounted for.
When she went to Galway for her next part of training. She would often look for a file and it would not be there and the nurses station for consumables wasnt always stocked efficiently.

When her training was completed, where do you think she went to for employment?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

There's loads of great ideas out there, from the use of sovereign wealth funds, to public banks, to this, to that....

See, we are going to need people to put up and explain and defend real ideas towards changing things positively rather than simple vague statements.

This is not aimed at you particularly but any politician, expert, consultant who says things can be better, needs to give a concrete example of a way this can happen. Not just that it should, but that here is how to do it.

I'm sick of PR statements at election time or while in opposition or while on a TV show fading away to dust when that person is actually in a position to do something.

skooterblue2 wrote:

If they didnt get the tax avoidance, then they wouldnt come here. What companies had bail out? I have seen banks get bailouts but never industry as far as I can recall.

One of the main reasons they came here was the low tax rate, paying virtually none of it wasn't the deal, they should be paying all of the 12.5, virtually no one still does, this also wasn't a part of the deal. You ll find many large corporations have been bailed out at some stage, it's common practice, has been for a long time, it's occuring again now, but we aren't directly paying this, but it wouldn't surprise me if we were paying for it indirectly, such is the complexity of our economic systems. Then there's activities such as share buy backs......

skooterblue2 wrote:

When her training was completed, where do you think she went to for employment?

I know another newly trained nurse that ran out of the public sector and into the private sector, main reason, working conditions of the public sector, mainly the behaviour of supervisors etc. This isn't clear cut, there's inefficiencies and problems in both sectors, elements of the private sector are highly extractive, and add no value, in fact, they extract value from the system, particularly from the public/private sector

Tell me how wrote:

This is not aimed at you particularly but any politician, expert, consultant who says things can be better, needs to give a concrete example of a way this can happen. Not just that it should, but that here is how to do it.

Those experts do exist, and have been explaining in detail how to do this, but they're rarely listened to, if ever

Itssoeasy

I don't know how far back modern is going but surely Sean lemass must be considered one of the best taosigh we've ever had because he had the balls to change the course of this country. When you read the dail debates from the 1970's(which I do because I'm boring) his legacy looms large. I suppose WT cosgrave is included by virtue of being the first and handing over power peacefully which set the tone going forward.

I don't think there has been any bad taoisigh in the history of the state but some have been worse than others. Mainly brian cowen who was thrown a hospital pass to end all hospital passes(this view has evolved over time) and he wasn't a bad person. I recently read the first siting after brian Lenihan died and was a fitting tribute.

micosoft

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Cowen was poor, but he was landed it by the previous cowboy, Leo has been great for many reasons, sadly though, him and his parties major downfall is their economic ideologies, but it is good to see our country becoming more mature and open, if only we could get a handle on our economics, it could be a great little country, but to be fair, we re not the only country struggling in that department, and there's others, including some far wealther countries, that are doing much worse

The mistake people are necessarily making is the Leo's ideology is something he came up with rather than representing what a significant majority of the electorate think. The reality is the bulk of the electorate are not ready for alternatives because they don't trust that a more left wing social contract where they signup to paying more tax will be reciprocated when the other side is not represented by a ideology looking to create an equal nordic society but rather Sinn Fein and PbP fronts who simply want to grab money from the system to buy votes to take power. The folk who demand a change in FG and to an extent FF ideology will regret destroying the labour movement.

micosoft

Wanderer78 wrote: »

they are inefficiencies, if it also costs the tax payer, the private sector isnt as efficient as its made out to be, particularly at the corporate level, they tend to crush both public and private sector business out of existence, and when it all goes up in flames, the tax payer sorts it all out! a lot of private sector activities are highly dangerous for all tax payers, particularly at corporate level

You make your point better if you just left out the "corporate level" which is a meaningless construct. The majority of nursing homes and landlords in Ireland are small business - are they left out of your thinking? Is the public sector exempt from needing to be bailed out by tax payers? HSE needs to be bailed out on an annual basis?

The reality is that the bulk of folk in Western Europe believe in a well regulated private sector with redistribution of wealth by the taxation system. Mistakes have been made and will in the future because an economy is a constantly evolving thing ran by humans who will always identify opportunities to attain their objectives. Case in point - how would you pre-regulate Facebook before it became a problem? Even Facebook didn't fully realise what they were doing.

Last point is important though - I feel a lot of the commentary about what government should do leaves out rule of law. The reason the west has succeeded in elevating millions out of poverty while respecting individual rights is the rule of law. Saying the Taoiseach should do this or that without regard to the law is a very slippery slope. And you can't change the law retrospectively.

StefanFal

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Leo seems to be like Obama in the sense that he's made strides in terms of being the first Indian politician and first gay politician but his policies were average at best and incompetent at worst.

Obama isn't Indian nor gay.

mikemac2

You can't hammer De Valera over religion and then nobody mentions John A Costello

I am an Irishman second, I am a Catholic first, and I accept without qualification in all respects the teaching of the hierarchy and the church to which I belong.

I didn't see him on the thread at all. The most religious Taoiseach we ever had

StefanFal wrote: »

Obama isn't Indian nor gay.

hmmmmmmm ever seen that piece on Michael when he was dancing on ellen?

StefanFal wrote: »

Obama isn't Indian nor gay.

hmmmmmmm ever seen that piece on Michael when he was dancing on ellen?

Itssoeasy

mikemac2 wrote: »

You can't hammer De Valera over religion and then nobody mentions John A Costello

I didn't see him on the thread at all. The most religious Taoiseach we ever had

Well John A Costello probably wasn't alone in that belief which to 2020 eyes seems daft.

I don't think jack lynch was an overly bad Taoiseach even though his give away election in 1977 and what FF got rid of in terms of rates may not have been a good move in hindsight. There was the arms crisis which even after reading a biography of him I think he just about gets the benefit of the doubt because there seems to be enough doubt in my mind as to whether he knew for definite.

Albert Reynolds will be treated well by history the Brendan smyth case not withstanding but when you read the deal debate the day before had to resign he seems clear he believes the then former AG wasnt as forthcoming as he should have been.

bertiebomber

enda the worst he gave ethnic status to a minoriity who can now do they what they want & are even more lawless than before he also gave us leo who IMO is a bit too liberal and doesnt really look out for the average irish person of generational heritage