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Fencing questions

893bet

I am going to doing alot (well alot for us) of fencing over the next 12 months. Currently putting together the first shopping list for an outfarm. Plan on getting the contractor to drive the strainers and then drive the posts myself with he sledge/front loader.
Looking at 25 strainers and 120-150 posts. Barbed wire 2 strands (never saw the point of the bottom strand?).

Questions for the masses.

1) Which posts? I am going to price PDM, Octo and Agriknives (if they deliver). It seems the current thinking is Agriknives. Open to other suggestions.

2) Do agriknives deliver?
3) Are 5-7 inch strainers "big" enough?
3b) How much is a typical strainer, local place has 7ft 5-7inch PDM ones for 30 euro. Seems expensive. Was expecting 15-20euro a piece.

4) How deep should a 7 foot strainer be driven? I am thinking down to 4.5 foot?
5) Are stays crucial for strainers?

6) What depth should a standard 6 ft post be driven to?
7) What height from the ground should the top row of barbed wire be?
8) What distance down from the top row should the second row sit?
9) Distance between posts? Will I get away with 6 meters? I don't want to be revisiting the fencing for at least 5 years other than to retension the wire and replace a staple.

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lakill Farm

VAT can be claimed back on a new fence, not on repairs to an old fence . Materials and labour and hire once you have the vat invoices. So hedge cutter to cut back the hedge first or a digger if needed, cost of driving posts , putting up wire, posts, wire and consumables like nails, timber for H frames , insulators etc

Repairs to a fence is accounted for in the year they occurred. so you stick a roll of barb wire and 20 posts. Current expenditure ( no vat to be reclaimed)

If you put up 1500M of brand new fence with all new posts and wire that's capital expenditure so you claim capital allowances over 8 years (Vat can be claimed)

Water John wrote: »

No, fencing is not a building. The VAT rebate is specifically for fixtures and fittings. For example if you get a stand by PTO driven generator you may or may not claim VAT back. You can if its bolted to the floor. You can't if the same generator has a three point linkage and is thus mobile.
You charge the fencing materials as a cost on this year's accounts.

Bullocks

893bet wrote: »

On most of this ground the loader would push a 6 foot post out of sight!

Keeping them straight is the biggest challenge.

Will drive the strainers and see if there is time left over for some of the posts.

If it's that soft I'd be putting down 8' posts. Shorter ones just don't stay firm that long in soft ground.
I got rough split ones last year fairly cheap. Cows scratching on them will loosen shorter ones way too easy

893bet

lakill Farm wrote: »

VAT can be claimed back on a new fence, not on repairs to an old fence . Materials and labour and hire once you have the vat invoices. So hedge cutter to cut back the hedge first or a digger if needed, cost of driving posts , putting up wire, posts, wire and consumables like nails, timber for H frames , insulators etc

Repairs to a fence is accounted for in the year they occurred. so you stick a roll of barb wire and 20 posts. Current expenditure ( no vat to be reclaimed)

If you put up 1500M of brand new fence with all new posts and wire that's capital expenditure so you claim capital allowances over 8 years (Vat can be claimed)

That’s my understanding.

Claim it over 8 years as a new fence and get the VAT back

Or claim it over one year as repairs and no VAT back.

Try and do both I.e claim it over the one year and get the VAT back then if there is an audit you may need to bend over. Lot do this and prob get away with it. Not sure it’s worth the risk.

893bet

Bullocks wrote: »

If it's that soft I'd be putting down 8' posts. Shorter ones just don't stay firm that long in soft ground.
I got rough split ones last year fairly cheap. Cows scratching on them will loosen shorter ones way too easy

If the strainers are right then the intermediate posts are doing little though is my understanding.

893bet

Have priced octo and pdm. Octo cheaper so far but that’s a local price so they have gave their best. The pdm supplier was to ring their boss to see what they could do so I suspect they will end up around the same.

25 x 8 foot strainers (140mm)
100 x 6 foot posts (100mm)
800 metres barbed wire.

Around 1550 euro.

Should be enough to do a decent job on an out farm.

The strainers are pricey. They offered the tantilised ones 8 foot x 7 inches for half the price.....are these any good or will these fail after 5 years? Experience of the 3-4 inch ones is not good.

Below is picture of a new pdm 100mm post that I cut the top off and an octo post that is 3 years old.
Pdm are fast growing alright...

hopeso

Forget the tantalised strainers anyway. I seen them rotting here faster than the tantalised stakes that went in at the same time....

893bet

Yeah. Ground is wet enough. They would rot and I would curse myself for being penny wise. Not the corner to be cut short cost wise.

paddysdream

Tannilised strainers seem to be gone very poor in the last few years.

Actually used a go of them here at home and on a site for my brother in Summer 2014.Stakes were octo but we decided in our wisdom that the strainers were too expensive.Can't rem. exactly prices at the time but suffice to say it must have been significant.

Anyways of the 3 strainers on his site none lasted more than 4/5 years.
Here around the yard reckon have every strainer replaced as done the last one only this week.Totally rotten at ground level.

At entrance to yard have 2 square posts for post and rail.Both put up same year (2014).One is perfect whilst the other is rotten down a foot at the top (so soft you can poke your finger through it)and rotted through at ground level.May replace it as all thats keeping it there is the rails and the gate on it thats very seldom opened.

All the above were supposedly top of the range stuff and not the cheapest option.

Buford T. Justice XIX

893bet wrote: »

Have priced octo and pdm. Octo cheaper so far but that’s a local price so they have gave their best. The pdm supplier was to ring their boss to see what they could do so I suspect they will end up around the same.

25 x 8 foot strainers (140mm)
100 x 6 foot posts (100mm)
800 metres barbed wire.

Around 1550 euro.

Should be enough to do a decent job on an out farm.

The strainers are pricey. They offered the tantilised ones 8 foot x 7 inches for half the price.....are these any good or will these fail after 5 years? Experience of the 3-4 inch ones is not good.

Below is picture of a new pdm 100mm post that I cut the top off and an octo post that is 3 years old.
Pdm are fast growing alright...

I'll give you 3 bit of advice.
Cresoted.
Cresoted.
Cresoted.
You can thank me in 20 years time.:)

We have some FRS sheep fencing up with 25 years using tananlised stakes. Most still there but a few need replacing now. But maybe the older chemicals lasted better.

We've switched to all Cresoted stakes now, the wet weather means we're replacing a good number of stakes every year, even some we did only 4 or 5 years ago. Costs more starting off but costs less in the long term, if you can afford it.

Count Mondego

If you were only fencing for one strand of electric wire against a wall, would you need strainers at all? Longest runs would be 200 Metres

Belongamick

For me the strainer is the most important ingredient.
If your strainer lasts then it is fairly easy to replace an odd post, wire, tension a bit more etc.
A straight fence is easy to keep taught, even if you have to put a strainer in the middle to accommodate a dog leg.
I put in the large diameter strainers about 12 years ago - some have rotted in the wetter ground. I am now replacing them with a concrete gate post so that hopefully they will last a lot longer. Any new fence will have a concrete strainer also.
Layout is important. Get your strainers down first. Lay out your fence post on the ground at the chosen distance. Attach one strand of wire along the fence line tacked on to the two strainers. Now you have a straight line to drop down your fence posts - no delay for the digger/post driver man.
I prefer a strand of electric as the top row to stop cattle scratching and leaning over the fence.
Agree that fence post quality can vary but strainers are the key to long term peace and quiet, I think.

hopeso

Count Mondego wrote: »

If you were only fencing for one strand of electric wire against a wall, would you need strainers at all? Longest runs would be 200 Metres

It probably depends on the wire you're using. If it's a heavy high tensile wire, it will need a good post. Light mild steel wire tightened with those insulated ratchet strainers will be fine with a 6' stake if the ground is anyway firm.

have2flushtwice

Is there much cost difference in concrete or even an rsj strainer vs a wooden one? Have an rsj lying there, if i was to buy one id be thinking twice...
If the wood is rotton in 5 years time, as per the last few posters experience, surely they aren't up to the mark.
I would also wonder if the effect of the chemical is the same as it was years ago.
I've a site to fence off soon, ground is good and I'd be looking towards an rsj, maybe weld a brace to the side where the pull is, to allow a support?

GrasstoMilk

Have you priced a contractor to do the job?

I'd nearly say there wouldnt be much difference in the price if you put a value on your time and the job is done by a professional.

Tommy Williamson in enniscorthy sells very good creosote stakes. Serious weight and very solid. Give him a call he'll deliver nearly any where

J.O. Farmer

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Have you priced a contractor to do the job?

I'd nearly say there wouldnt be much difference in the price if you put a value on your time and the job is done by a professional.

Tommy Williamson in enniscorthy sells very good creosote stakes. Serious weight and very solid. Give him a call he'll deliver nearly any where

It depends on the value you put on your time and if you value it at a higher rate than the contractor sure it'd be cheaper to get them.

The thing if budget is limited you don't have to pay yourself for the job but no contractor will provide labour pro bono.

Now if you're paying a lot of tax at the top rate and you can spare the money it's probably worth considering getting a contractor in. The contractors labour will be fully tax deductable.

Given the choice between paying the contractor or using better quality materials I'd prefer to go with better materials.

davidk1394

ESB poles are a life time job if you can get your hands on them. Have strianers in here since the mid 90s and are still perfect. I used H irons in places where I'm going hanging a gate. If I have room I'd then build a pier around them. I uses concrete posts in one place and it cracked within a year.

3 the square

davidk1394 wrote: »

ESB poles are a life time job if you can get your hands on them. Have strianers in here since the mid 90s and are still perfect. I used H irons in places where I'm going hanging a gate. If I have room I'd then build a pier around them. I uses concrete posts in one place and it cracked within a year.

Are the esb poles easy to cut ??

davidk1394

3 the square wrote: »

Are the esb poles easy to cut ??

Yes, once you have a good edge on a chain saw. 6ft lengths for 1 or 2 strands of wire and 8ft lengths for sheep wire.

southkilkenny

Where can esb poles be got though, particularly in the waterford, South Kk, south tipp area. Are ye talking new esb poles or the old ones which are replaced by the esb?

Water John

You're not going to get them in South Tipp anyway, David has all those. You're looking at ones that are replaced.

davidk1394

southkilkenny wrote: »

Where can esb poles be got though, particularly in the waterford, South Kk, south tipp area. Are ye talking new esb poles or the old ones which are replaced by the esb?

Either a neighbour could have a few in the corner of a field or you could find them on done deal. Their like hens teeth, and as Water John said keep out of south Tipp

Tommyturf

Hi Folks, was looking at doing this on the side, outside of the day to day job. start with regular farms and maybe get into higher end commercial type fencing, thoughts?

Water John

FRS have a real shortage of staff to do fencing contracts. As a small operation you should be fine, but expansion for you will be limited for the same reason.

A guy near near has set up a very good business doing power washing. This is domestic houses and industrial buildings, not the cubicle sheds.

Say my name

Following on from the power washing craic.
There's a demand for good house painters. You wouldn't need the same outlay as power washing either.

Local man does power washing here with a van, ibc of water in the van with power washer and tows a cherrypicker behind the van.

Water John

You'd need to invest in an industrial model with its own power source.

893bet

Some new toys! These are prob standard to most people but I have been used to “working out of nothing”. Hammer and nail bar. Never get a wire tight!

Below is handy! Get a decent strain but if you push your luck the wire will snap where it’s hooked on and pinched.

This is a revelation for cutting wire!

Below is incredible piece of kit. Awkward enough to get wire in to it. I assume all strainers are. Great value compared to the cost of Haynes strainer.

Links below (no affiliation).

lyrlody Fence Strainer,1.2m Monkey Cattle Wire Fence Tensioner Pull Puller Stretcher Carbon Steel Chain Strainer Heavy Duty Farm Fence Cattle Wire Puller Repair Tool, Load Capacity 800 kg

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07T6G7HSV/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_BXeoFbY72B151

Draper 57547 Fence Wire...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0002GUM6Y?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

Draper 68450 260 mm Cushion Grip Fencing Pliers https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0002GV0P6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_3YeoFb86F2ZCF

893bet

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Have you priced a contractor to do the job?

I'd nearly say there wouldnt be much difference in the price if you put a value on your time and the job is done by a professional.

Tommy Williamson in enniscorthy sells very good creosote stakes. Serious weight and very solid. Give him a call he'll deliver nearly any where

Prefer the hardship of doing it myself.

That’s kind of why I want to contractor to drive the strainer and do the stakes myself.

Dinzee Conlee

893bet wrote: »

Prefer the hardship of doing it myself.

That’s kind of why I want to contractor to drive the strainer and do the stakes myself.

I do the same - but get a neighbour to drive all stakes. It’s sheep wire I put up though, so I like to get all the stakes in fairly solid...
He charges 35euro/hour - so works out about a euro a stake but its worth to do the job properly...

Nekarsulm

893bet wrote: »

Prefer the hardship of doing it myself.

That’s kind of why I want to contractor to drive the strainer and do the stakes myself.

If there are 2 springs holding the jaws of your wire strainer together, snip one of them .
A lot easier getting the chain into place then.

893bet

Went PDM for a finish. Not really sure why but hopefully the fences will last.

Doesn’t look a lot but was 1800 euro!

3 x large 8 foot strainers (these seem to be 10 inches or so)
25 x 5-7 inch 8 foot strainers
105 x 4-5 inch posts 6 foot
800 metres of wire

The large strainers seem the best value. They were 29 plus vat and ate serious wedges of timber. Sorry I didn’t upgrade another 10 of the strainers for the sake of an extra 10er a strainer.