How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Who is us? Because nationalists, and others, who'd just voted to end British jurisdiction would find you guys trying to wheedle them back into some sort of neo-norn-iron absolutely hilarious.

Your vision of a UI isn't much of an incentive Tom if you don't mind me saying.NI have their own flag and make their own decisions currently as do all countries within the UK.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Your vision of a UI isn't much of an incentive Tom if you don't mind me saying.NI have their own flag and make their own decisions currently as do all countries within the UK.

About 50% of the population of NI have their own flag and anthem. Its not agreed.

Explain how Scotland and NI are being dragged out of the EU against their wishes if they make their own decisions please. They don't even get any input into negotiating the trade deals.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I don't know if you're asking a rhetorical question, or if you genuinely don't know the modus operandi of people like Downcow.

Some people in the North never got past the fact that it's not exclusively their dominion to do with as they please. The idea of a democratically decided future for the North is fantastic so long as it lines up with their wants.....the second that changes, well we only have to look at Downcow's own admission that he would try to, but could not guarantee he would remain peaceful.

Fortunately he isn't representative of the majority of Unionists, despite his insistence to the contrary.

I do know the modus operandi of unionists like Downcow. I am just checking whether the GFA has changed their attitude and it doesn't seem to have done so.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Your vision of a UI isn't much of an incentive Tom if you don't mind me saying.NI have their own flag and make their own decisions currently as do all countries within the UK.

'Make their own decisions' is a fairly large simplification of Devolution, Rob.

Mayo, for example, have their own flag and Mayo County Council makes it's own decisions on certain things.

The question is should NI continue to be devolved should a majority in the place not wish that to be the case? If so, why? Just as a fop to Unionists who are unwilling to accept the outcome of a referendum.....an outcome which has been a known possibility for over 20 years?

I've said before, I'm not in favour of a devolved NI within Ireland, but I could be convinced on it to some extent, but there would need to be some reason beyond blatant Hibernophobia, which is the only justification Downcow has been able to give so far.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

Explain how Scotland and NI are being dragged out of the EU against their wishes if they make their own decisions please. They don't even get any input into negotiating the trade deals.

It's an incredible blindspot with people from the UK I find.

They'll climb onto an ivory tower of their 'democracy and inclusiveness' when it is in fact a class based monarchy were the regions or component countries are entirely subservient to an English parliament.

There is a massive truth in the England out of Ireland banner if you look at the 'UK' without the blinkers.

Denying the devolved countries access to the Brexit negotiations put the tin hat on it.

jm08 wrote: »

About 50% of the population of NI have their own flag and anthem. Its not agreed.

Explain how Scotland and NI are being dragged out of the EU against their wishes if they make their own decisions please. They don't even get any input into negotiating the trade deals.

If you can't work it out for yourself:the population of the UK is approximately 65 million. The population of England is approximately 55 million.Now I've told you that I assume you can do the mathematics yourself.btw,I'm unhappy about brexit but that's democracy.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's an incredible blindspot with people from the UK I find.

They'll climb onto an ivory tower of their 'democracy and inclusiveness' when it is in fact a class based monarchy were the regions or component countries are entirely subservient to an English parliament.

There is a massive truth in the England out of Ireland banner if you look at the 'UK' without the blinkers.

Denying the devolved countries access to the Brexit negotiations put the tin hat on it.

At the end of the day,mary lou primping infront of that ridiculous banner was cringeworthy even to a British person.I feel sorry for those of you who support SF having her at the helm.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

At the end of the day,mary lou primping infront of that ridiculous banner was cringeworthy even to a British person.I feel sorry for those of you who support SF having her at the helm.

Absolutely nothing inaccurate in it Rob and you'll understand when Scotland finally break the 'Union'.

Maybe then you might go look up what the word/concept actually means.

Junkyard Tom

RobMc59 wrote: »

Your vision of a UI

My vision for a UI is quite broad, if people decided to have a sort of devolved-from-Dublin region then it wouldn't bother me.

NI have their own flag

No they don't. Unionists have a flag from the times of their rotten one-party Protestant statelet that they cling to as a reminder of their once-dominant past.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't conform to any variation of the meaning...it was never 'one unit' either, it failed precisely because it created two societies and an artificial majority that Unionism completely usurped and twisted until it went up in the flames it did.

Francie it has been one unit for 100 years by the wishes of the majority living in it. Which is 100 years more than the island of Ireland has been one unit by the wishes of the majority living in it

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I don't know if you're asking a rhetorical question, or if you genuinely don't know the modus operandi of people like Downcow.

Some people in the North never got past the fact that it's not exclusively their dominion to do with as they please. The idea of a democratically decided future for the North is fantastic so long as it lines up with their wants.....the second that changes, well we only have to look at Downcow's own admission that he would try to, but could not guarantee he would remain peaceful.

Fortunately he isn't representative of the majority of Unionists, despite his insistence to the contrary.

Oh my goodness Fionn, you just cannot let go of one sentence that you want to interpret as you wish, even though I have clarified for you exactly what I meant, which is exactly compatible with the sentence

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Francie it has been one unit for 100 years by the wishes of the majority living in it. Which is 100 years more than the island of Ireland has been one unit by the wishes of the majority living in it

Ireland as a nation has been here for centuries and will be here for centuries more.

By the threat of mass terrorism your forefathers crafted unionist/Protestant ethno-statelet out of the Irish nation 100 years ago. That will come to an end and the vast majority of former Unionists will come back to the Irish nation and will see themselves as fully Irish only with British heritage.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's an incredible blindspot with people from the UK I find.

They'll climb onto an ivory tower of their 'democracy and inclusiveness' when it is in fact a class based monarchy were the regions or component countries are entirely subservient to an English parliament.

There is a massive truth in the England out of Ireland banner if you look at the 'UK' without the blinkers.

Denying the devolved countries access to the Brexit negotiations put the tin hat on it.

I don’t understand your point. Surely every region of ROI is subservient to the Irish Parliament? Is that not what being part of a democracy means. Now of course Northern Ireland and Scotland have certain devolved powers

Fionn1952 wrote: »

'Make their own decisions' is a fairly large simplification of Devolution, Rob.

Mayo, for example, have their own flag and Mayo County Council makes it's own decisions on certain things.

The question is should NI continue to be devolved should a majority in the place not wish that to be the case? If so, why? Just as a fop to Unionists who are unwilling to accept the outcome of a referendum.....an outcome which has been a known possibility for over 20 years?

I've said before, I'm not in favour of a devolved NI within Ireland, but I could be convinced on it to some extent, but there would need to be some reason beyond blatant Hibernophobia, which is the only justification Downcow has been able to give so far.

Why is there a male council and why do they take many of their own decisions?

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

My vision for a UI is quite broad, if people decided to have a sort of devolved-from-Dublin region then it wouldn't bother me.

No they don't. Unionists have a flag from the times of their rotten one-party Protestant statelet that they cling to as a reminder of their once-dominant past.

Here we go again Tom. Let’s talk nonsense and hope that many people who do not understand but accepted as fact. What do you think is the go to flag for the Catholic Rory McIlroy?

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Ireland as a nation has been here for centuries and will be here for centuries more.

By the threat of mass terrorism your forefathers crafted unionist/Protestant ethno-statelet out of the Irish nation 100 years ago. That will come to an end and the vast majority of former Unionists will come back to the Irish nation and will see themselves as fully Irish only with British heritage.

I think we have done that one to death and all agreed that the island of Ireland was never united except under British rule. So more nonsense

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Here we go again Tom. Let’s talk nonsense and hope that many people who do not understand but accepted as fact. What do you think is the go to flag for the Catholic Rory McIlroy?

I couldn't care less what his religion is or that he whacks little balls around fields with an iron club. There is no NI flag.

'Northern Ireland' was designed by the British as a temporary solution to the Irish Question, please respect the British and come to terms with it.

downcow wrote: »

I think we have done that one to death and all agreed that the island of Ireland was never united except under British rule. So more nonsense

Because it was prevented from doing so by the threat of British terrorism. If anything you're making the moral case for a United Ireland.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don’t understand your point. Surely every region of ROI is subservient to the Irish Parliament? Is that not what being part of a democracy means. Now of course Northern Ireland and Scotland have certain devolved powers

There are no regions in the ROI pretending they are countries downcow when it suits you.

We argued with you before and you wouldn't accept that all Northern Ireland is, is a region.

Caught in your own spin there.

downcow wrote: »

Why is there a male council and why do they take many of their own decisions?

You're going to have to clarify here, Downcow. I haven't a notion what you're on about.

downcow wrote: »

Here we go again Tom. Let’s talk nonsense and hope that many people who do not understand but accepted as fact. What do you think is the go to flag for the Catholic Rory McIlroy?

I'd say its the US flag now. He has moved lock, stock and barrel out of Northern Ireland.

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you can't work it out for yourself:the population of the UK is approximately 65 million. The population of England is approximately 55 million.Now I've told you that I assume you can do the mathematics yourself.btw,I'm unhappy about brexit but that's democracy.

So, England decides for Scotland and Northern Ireland. In more advanced democracies, there would be at least a system of consultation. For instance, in the US, the President looks out for the whole country, not just one particular part and the States make decisions for themselves and can raise taxes to finance those decisions.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You're going to have to clarify here, Downcow. I haven't a notion what you're on about.

Sorry dictation software playing up. I meant Mayo council

Just look at this page. No republicans answered a single question. Hardly a surprise

downcow wrote: »

Sorry dictation software playing up. I meant Mayo council

I'd imagine the Mayo county council exists for the same reason the Fermanagh and Omagh council exists, or the Kent county council exists.

Unless you figure that UK devolved government is equivalent to a county council, I don't see what relevance it has to your point?

I brought up Mayo county council in reference to Rob's incredibly vague point about, 'making their own decisions'. It was to highlight how his statement massively undersimplified devolution. Not to draw a direct comparison between the two ideas myself, but rather to point out that such a vague description would apply to both.

Hamsterchops

Deleted User wrote: »

Your pro-union posts and saying people like.oil and water,makes seriously qs,if you actually know any unionists.....people are same the world over

Not Pro-Union, but arguing from what I perceive to be their position. Too many Republicans on here with hard-line Republican views (which I detest), and only Downcow on the receiving end, so I like to put in a little balance as and when when I can

feargale

downcow wrote: »

Yeah, it is a difficult question and I am honestly not sure I am qualified to answer it. I live 100 miles from where John Hume operated and lived. As a teens and 20s Unionist, I certainly was not a fan. But years ago by, we get older, and reflect on stuff. He was coming from a very different place than me and his politics were probably diametrically opposed.
I think he was genuinely a man of peace. I was really impressed the other day when I heard that as a history teacher he encourage debate, and asked his catholic schoolchildren too often take on the position of Unionists in the debate. That is very progressive

feargale wrote: »

You and he had different aspirations re the constitutional position of NI. That's a given. Had you any other problems over him?

downcow you have persistently sidestepped my question. I expected better.
Disqualifying yourself by saying you live 100 miles from his base quite frankly looks like a cop-out as you have waxed eloquent on events in Dublin, for example (about equidistant from you, with a border intervening), the south generally, Westminster and Brussels, being much further away, as well as every other crossroads in NI.
You are doing your credibility no favours in this.
Would your reluctance to give your assessment of John Hume have anything to do with the fact that a United Ireland was not his overriding objective, but rather the remedying of abuses that embarrass every decent Unionist?

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Do you Irish Republicans (Francie, Junkyard & Co) honestly think the Ulster Scots can become one & the same with the Irish Republican?

Surely they are like oil and water ......

I mean how could we/they become one Nation, one people under one flag? Forget Westminster & Dublin for one moment, how would the two traditions mingle and become one people, as one nation?

There are two main tribes on this island, pulling in a similar parallel direction yet never to be "united" (as we were in the past) as part of the United Kingdom Pre 1922.

Ulster Scots can't & won't abandon the monarchy, neither will they abandon the Union flag, and they certainly won't abandon GB, and on the flip side Irish Republicans won't embrace the monarchy, neither will they abandon the Tricolour, and the certainly won't abandon the dream of a 32 county State.

So what happens next?

How do you manufacture a United Ireland if the two tribes don't want to be United as one?

I'm not sure if I've asked before Hamsterchops, but have you actually spent much time in the North, actually associating with the people who live there?

I don't mean it in a rude way, I'm genuinely curious. I don't mean in a, 'weekend in Belfast with your mates where you talked to a few lads in the bar' way, I mean actual normal conversation with people from the North.

You talk about it like you're reading from some caricatured textbook of some distant civilisation.

The fact of the matter is that we're discussing one specific topic that's obviously polarising in the North.....but by in large, it is just normal people with normal motivations, hopes and goals. A typical Unionist in the North has FAR more in common with you than they have differences. Downcow and I hugely disagree on pretty much everything to do with the future of the North, but we could easily have a civilised conversation over a pint or a cup of coffee without jumping over the table at eachother. We could discuss a thousand topics and come to full agreement on them, but we disagree on one subject and suddenly you're talking about it as if we're from different planets?!

Your question seems deep, but ultimately it is fairly vapid - realistically, people will adapt. There's a big degree of the squeaky wheel getting the oil; I can be guilty of it myself speaking from the Nationalist side, but ultimately if theres food on the table, a roof over your head and money in your pocket, peace and some semblance of political and social stability, the vast majority of people will just get on with their lives. They may aspire to something different, but, 'oil and water' is such dramatic hyperbole to make it almost cringeworthy.

I'm also confident that you overestimate the Monarchist leanings of many Unionists, despite the GSTQ type of shouting - most are much more invested in their general British culture and heritage than they are ardent supporters of a monarchistic form of governance.

jm08 wrote: »

So, England decides for Scotland and Northern Ireland. In more advanced democracies, there would be at least a system of consultation. For instance, in the US, the President looks out for the whole country, not just one particular part and the States make decisions for themselves and can raise taxes to finance those decisions.

Countries within the UK have their own laws and can set their own taxes etc-an example is prescriptions/medication this is free in certain parts whilst a fee is paid in England.Scotland has different criminal laws and the process of buying a property is different.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Countries within the UK have their own laws and can set their own taxes etc-an example is prescriptions/medication this is free in certain parts whilst a fee is paid in England.Scotland has different criminal laws and the process of buying a property is different.

They can set their own council tax? Big deal. It was the British Government that introduced Internment into Northern Ireland (at the request of the Stormont Gov.), not the Stormont Government itself. The British Government would have liked to have introduced internement into the ROI, but it couldn't because Ireland makes its own laws.