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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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Dog Botherer

ionadnapokot wrote: »

My take. I feel we have a fair idea where we are player wise.
Hope to see progress in how we attack and a phasing out of the old guard.
- Develop our attack. Particularly kick attack
- Balance Back 3. 15. Larmour, 14. Balaucane & 11 Lowe & Stockdale?
- Sexton & Earls to be phased out sooner rather than later

& Casey at 9. I hope he gets to start a few games.

Our scrum half depth looks something like:

1. Murray
2. Cooney
3. McGrath
4. Marmion
5. Blade
6. Gibson-Park

Going to take a lot for Casey to get any kind of a look in with that back log. Seems a year or two too soon.

AbusesToilets

ionadnapokot wrote: »

My take. I feel we have a fair idea where we are player wise.
Hope to see progress in how we attack and a phasing out of the old guard.
- Develop our attack. Particularly kick attack
- Balance Back 3. 15. Larmour, 14. Balaucane & 11 Lowe & Stockdale?
- Sexton & Earls to be phased out sooner rather than later

& Casey at 9. I hope he gets to start a few games.

I don't think we're majorly deficient in terms of back row power. Vunipola skews everything, but beyond him, I'd rate our players on a level. For me, getting guys who can run and pass effectively is more important. We've failed so many times bashing our heads against defensive walls, instead of unlocking defenses; we need to change that approach. Players like Conan, Leavy, Deegan et Al give us the ability to attack more fluidly, while also using someone like Stander to the best of their abilities.

arsebiscuits1

shootermacg wrote: »

Regarding Larmour, I think he wastes plenty of passing opportunities.
Now his general skills are very good don't get me wrong, but it's one thing that sticks out when I watch him.
Maybe it's something that will come with experience.

I think Larmour is given a lot of license by the coaches to back himself. There's no one in the squad who is as elusive as him or who has a step that he does.

Doesn't come off all the time. But when it does - oh boy does it.

In green how often do we really see our back 3 passing? I wouldn't say he passes any less than his counterparts.

But I don't necessarily disagree with you. I think passing is the weakest part of his game (including offloading) and certainly as he matures I'm sure his decision of when to pass and when to carry will improve.

But I'm also happy to let a lad with feet like his back himself!

Richie_Rich89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So now you want to ship off our players oversea?

Part of me thinks it could be beneficial in some cases. But I suppose it's different over here than in NZ. The provinces play while the internationals are away, so you need experienced heads to hold the fort. Things tend to be very stable with not nearly as many breakout stars (at European Cup level as opposed to league level anyway) as in top level club rugby in the SH.

As an aside, one thing that I think is a bit inconsistent compared to how we talk about the national team is the lack of discussion on rugby forums about what in-house players could make the first choice Leinster XXIII better. There's always talk about what provincial player or other would improve the Ireland team, but there's hardly any about up and coming players replacing incumbents in the top Leinster XXIII. I find that interesting. Even when Leinster lose to Saracens, say, the talk would be of resetting and going again with the same players or of making signings.

crisco10 wrote: »

Apart from Larmour and Ryan, who both started a Champions Cup final in their debut season. Think it's more if you're good enough you're old enough.

Ryan only got into the first choice XXIII initially because Fardy withdrew for personal reasons. They had Ross Molony and an NIQ with two second row starts or whatever at international level ahead of the guy who got capped for Ireland at 20. Ryan obviously performed so well against Montpellier that it was impossible to ignore him any longer but it's interesting to think what might have happened if Fardy hadn't pulled out. Would Ryan have been winning a grand slam with Ireland in 2018 while not being part of Leinster's first choice XXIII? You could argue we're seeing shades of that Ryan situation happening all over again with Baird looking so good but potentially having his progress hampered by Fardy. Thankfully Ryan wasn't actually blocked, but Baird might not get as lucky. Fardy's not gonna be pulling out all the time.

I don't really remember the circumstances surrounding Larmour's elevation to the first XV - were other options unavailable though injury etc? But, yeah, fair enough, Larmour rose through the ranks quickly.

ionadnapóca

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Our scrum half depth looks something like:

1. Murray
2. Cooney
3. McGrath
4. Marmion
5. Blade
6. Gibson-Park

Going to take a lot for Casey to get any kind of a look in with that back log. Seems a year or two too soon.

There is a few ahead of him when you look at it there alright.
Maybe also too soon also. But I like his moxy! I think he could handle this 8 Nations thing.

ionadnapóca

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I don't think we're majorly deficient in terms of back row power. Vunipola skews everything, but beyond him, I'd rate our players on a level. For me, getting guys who can run and pass effectively is more important. We've failed so many times bashing our heads against defensive walls, instead of unlocking defenses; we need to change that approach. Players like Conan, Leavy, Deegan et Al give us the ability to attack more fluidly, while also using someone like Stander to the best of their abilities.

Dont think so. England ragdolled us around the park in general.
They had Lawes, Underhill & Curry in their BR in Feb. Our pack in general cant compete power wise with those guys.
Great power in that 2011 vintage Ireland: SOB, Wallace, Ferris & Healy
2020? Nothing of that caliber except poor Tadgh from TH.

100& agree with your second point. Very hard to do without gain line, attacking kicking game or another playmaker. All of which England have.

connachta

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Our scrum half depth looks something like:

1. Murray
2. Cooney
3. McGrath
4. Marmion
5. Blade
6. Gibson-Park

Going to take a lot for Casey to get any kind of a look in with that back log. Seems a year or two too soon.

RWC mistakes won't be made again, both Connacht SH will be chosen above L.McGrath, I hope. Cooney, if 10 kicks as usual, isn't a sure bet either. Murray is ageing too.
Open battle to 2023

AbusesToilets

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Dont think so. England ragdolled us around the park in general.
They had Lawes, Underhill & Curry in their BR in Feb. Our pack in general cant compete power wise with those guys.
Great power in that 2011 vintage Ireland: SOB, Wallace, Ferris & Healy
2020? Nothing of that caliber except poor Tadgh from TH.

100& agree with your second point. Very hard to do without gain line, attacking kicking game or another playmaker. All of which England have.

I wonder how much of that is physical vs mental. When the team has been up for it, they've had no issue smashing teams. We've seen it vs NZ, SA, Aus, England and France in recent memory. It seems more a question of inconsistency to me, which is worse imo. Passive tackling and clearing out, runners not hitting the line with pace and venom.

Former Former

connachta wrote: »

RWC mistakes won't be made again, both Connacht SH will be chosen above L.McGrath, I hope. Cooney, if 10 kicks as usual, isn't a sure bet either. Murray is ageing too.
Open battle to 2023

The early indications from Farrell were not encouraging for the Connacht lads.

salmocab

Former Former wrote: »

The early indications from Farrell were not encouraging for the Connacht lads.

I wouldn’t be shocked if JPG jumped all 3.

OneLungDavy

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Dont think so. England ragdolled us around the park in general.
They had Lawes, Underhill & Curry in their BR in Feb. Our pack in general cant compete power wise with those guys.
Great power in that 2011 vintage Ireland: SOB, Wallace, Ferris & Healy
2020? Nothing of that caliber except poor Tadgh from TH.

100& agree with your second point. Very hard to do without gain line, attacking kicking game or another playmaker. All of which England have.

The power of England is very overstated. They absolutely decimated us with their kicking game and line-speed, we couldn't cope with the pressure and lost our heads/confidence from there.

It's more about their tactical execution being so on-point against us rather than power.

molloyjh

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Dont think so. England ragdolled us around the park in general.
They had Lawes, Underhill & Curry in their BR in Feb. Our pack in general cant compete power wise with those guys.
Great power in that 2011 vintage Ireland: SOB, Wallace, Ferris & Healy
2020? Nothing of that caliber except poor Tadgh from TH.

100& agree with your second point. Very hard to do without gain line, attacking kicking game or another playmaker. All of which England have.

James Ryan will find you!

ionadnapóca

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I wonder how much of that is physical vs mental. When the team has been up for it, they've had no issue smashing teams. We've seen it vs NZ, SA, Aus, England and France in recent memory. It seems more a question of inconsistency to me, which is worse imo. Passive tackling and clearing out, runners not hitting the line with pace and venom.

Could well be. Ireland at home are of course a better team. Bit more bite about them.
What i wouldn't give for Stephen Ferris type back-rower.

ionadnapóca

OneLungDavy wrote: »

The power of England is very overstated. They absolutely decimated us with their kicking game and line-speed, we couldn't cope with the pressure and lost our heads/confidence from there.

It's more about their tactical execution being so on-point against us rather than power.

Yes 100% but we havent been able to stop them getting gain-line (Tuilagi, BillyV who are prob the best in the world) to execute superbly.

They also always fly out of the blocks & score first. They didnt in WC final.
If i recall correctly they also didnt kick very well that day. But they couldn't get through or around SA.

Englands game plan v Ireland.
Run at Sexton. Kick in behind. Close down Sexton. Smash them. Easy

yerrahbah

https://twitter.com/Elverys/status/1293832026643214336

Looks.... interesting?

[Deleted User]

yerrahbah wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Elverys/status/1293832026643214336

Looks.... interesting?

It looks like that yellow highlighter Leinster jersey people hated...

OneLungDavy

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Yes 100% but we havent been able to stop them getting gain-line (Tuilagi, BillyV who are prob the best in the world) to execute superbly.

They also always fly out of the blocks & score first. They didnt in WC final.
If i recall correctly they also didnt kick very well that day. But they couldn't get through or around SA.

Englands game plan v Ireland.
Run at Sexton. Kick in behind. Close down Sexton. Smash them. Easy

Completely agree. The recent interview with George Ford(I think) says a lot, they were constantly thinking "Where's Sexton?" at each breakdown.

Having another kicking option in the backline would make a big difference.

clsmooth

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Completely agree. The recent interview with George Ford(I think) says a lot, they were constantly thinking "Where's Sexton?" at each breakdown.

We need to outthink England. Next time we play them we should start with Aaron, Jerry and Johnny Sexton.

bilston

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Could well be. Ireland at home are of course a better team. Bit more bite about them.
What i wouldn't give for Stephen Ferris type back-rower.

Ferris was a freak though, has there ever been a more destructive Irish back rower? SOB I guess was up there too, mad to think they played in the same back row.

Is there a 6 coming through any of the provinces at the moment with that level of destructiveness, or even close to it.

Not a back rower, but Ryan has it in him too

Former Former

The English back row is a totally different animal without Billy Vunipola in it. There's no point us scratching our heads wondering who we have that can match his power, we have never and will never have anyone on that level. Without him, there's no huge difference between them and us.

The best we can do is pick our best players and look for the best balance we can achieve. We could put Stander at 6, Doris at 8 and one of van der Flier, POM or Leavy at 7 and that's plenty powerful IMO.

ionadnapóca

bilston wrote: »

Ferris was a freak though, has there ever been a more destructive Irish back rower? SOB I guess was up there too, mad to think they played in the same back row.

Is there a 6 coming through any of the provinces at the moment with that level of destructiveness, or even close to it.

Not a back rower, but Ryan has it in him too

Just havng a little day dream here....indulge me!
2011 RWC QF Ireland 22 v 10 Wales
Joe Schmidt Ireland head coach
Kearney; Bowe, BOD, Dorce, Trimble; Murray, Sexton: Best, Ross; DOC, POC (c); Ferris, SOB, Heaslip
Rep:
Cronin, Court, Ryan, Wallace, Reddan, ROG, Earls (wing only)

SF Ireland 9 v 8 France
Final Ireland 8 v 7 NZ Ref: His Holiness

rayd3

If Gavin Coombes can scale up his performances to facing better teams and have a breakout season he could be an option. Certainly looks to have the physical talents. Soroka looked like a bit of a monster for the 20’s in the limited opportunities there were available.

Agree with the poster above though, 2018 Grand Slam backrow or Stander/Doris/Another is probably plenty powerful.

bilston

Former Former wrote: »

The English back row is a totally different animal without Billy Vunipola in it. There's no point us scratching our heads wondering who we have that can match his power, we have never and will never have anyone on that level. Without him, there's no huge difference between them and us.

The best we can do is pick our best players and look for the best balance we can achieve. We could put Stander at 6, Doris at 8 and one of van der Flier, POM or Leavy at 7 and that's plenty powerful IMO.

Vunipola is the difference, a fit Tuilagi as well if we extend to the backs. Its been to England's detriment that the two of them have had their injury/jumping off boats problems over the years.

You are right that we cut our cloth according to what we have available. But it would still be nice to have a world class ball busting back rower as a change up

Buer

I'd say that the English pack overall is far more aggressive than ours. Vunipola wasn't playing this year against us and they still comfortably dominated us in terms of physicality.

There's probably not a huge amount of difference in strength but they're more dynamic and utilise their power and size far more. Curry and Underhill aren't massive guys but they show a level of physicality that we rarely see from our flankers. They dominate top tier opposition with their combination of timing and dynamism. We rarely see an Irish back rower make the gain line hits and carries that these guys do.

They also have guys like Lawes who is 115kg and can slot into the back row without missing a beat bringing extreme mobility and the same levels of aggression.

Ferris is probably as close as we get to that genetic freak scenario but even he didn't have a huge number of momentum shifting moments at test level where he absolutely emptied an opposition player in possession or obliterated a ruck the way we've seen England do to us over the past 18 months.

ionadnapóca

bilston wrote: »

Vunipola is the difference, a fit Tuilagi as well if we extend to the backs. Its been to England's detriment that the two of them have had their injury/jumping off boats problems over the years.

You are right that we cut our cloth according to what we have available. But it would still be nice to have a world class ball busting back rower as a change up

Stander, Vdf, Dorris: It's a fine BR.
England would still ragdoll Ireland. Just as they did without BillyV in Feb.

They have come full circle from Haskell & Robshaw era to having one of the best BR in the world.
Tuilagi is an Ireland wrecking machine all on his own. Hasnt lost a game against us.

ionadnapóca

This is what you need to stop England
Line speed & Freaks
https://youtu.be/Fr26b5D2rj8?t=471

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

I'd say that the English pack overall is far more aggressive than ours. Vunipola wasn't playing this year against us and they still comfortably dominated us in terms of physicality.

There's probably not a huge amount of difference in strength but they're more dynamic and utilise their power and size far more. Curry and Underhill aren't massive guys but they show a level of physicality that we rarely see from our flankers. They dominate top tier opposition with their combination of timing and dynamism. We rarely see an Irish back rower make the gain line hits and carries that these guys do.

They also have guys like Lawes who is 115kg and can slot into the back row without missing a beat bringing extreme mobility and the same levels of aggression.

Ferris is probably as close as we get to that genetic freak scenario but even he didn't have a huge number of momentum shifting moments at test level where he absolutely emptied an opposition player in possession or obliterated a ruck the way we've seen England do to us over the past 18 months.

A lot of England’s physicality crosses the line and that’s perfectly fine with Jones. I think certainly under Joe, we were too clean for our own good. Maybe Ryan was testing the waters under Farrell, in that English performance. Hopefully we will see a willingness to play more on the edge and make those bigger dominant hits.

Former Former

ionadnapokot wrote: »

This is what you need to stop England
Line speed & Freaks

Ah you're way over-hyping them. Like, they were well beaten by a very inexperienced and not especially freaky France a few weeks prior to beating us, and just about fell over the line against Scotland in a game that was tailor made for a team with a big pack.

ionadnapóca

Former Former wrote: »

Ah you're way over-hyping them. Like, they were well beaten by a very inexperienced and not especially freaky France a few weeks prior to beating us, and just about fell over the line against Scotland in a game that was tailor made for a team with a big pack.

France!
Puissance en abondance
They dont get coffee & croissants in Edinburgh

Buer

ionadnapokot wrote: »

They have come full circle from Haskell & Robshaw era to having one of the best BR in the world.

I'll never understand the grief guys like Robshaw and Haskell get. They were the starting flankers for a Grand Slam and a whitewash of Australia. They also played for England during a less successful period which coincided with their peak but Haskell in particular was a big talent. Him playing outside of England for 4 years didn't help his career either.

He was absolutely of the same style that we see now and probably one the first of the modern breed of flanker in terms of all round ability and size. Extremely strong and mobile with a big engine. His performances in Australia in 2016 were about as good as any back row player in the past several years outplaying Hooper and Pocock.