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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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Black_Knight

Black_Knight wrote: »

Looks like Ashford got an updated 22kW unit. One of the new eVolve Smart T models.

That engineer down the east is keeping busy. Shankhill Dart Station upgraded to the eVolve Smart T model.

Only Clifden and McDonalds in Portadown marked to be replaced at the moment.

Laviski

makes sense, was doing the math and you really want to be an apartment dweller with no possibility of private charge point. But even still many workplaces have or started to provide points at work. Need to be doing good distances (800km - 1km + ) on the public charge points alone for it to be worthwhile, with many charging at work/home i think that wouldn't be worthwhile.
Once everyone comes off the free plans would be interested to see if they change the pricing.

the_amazing_raisin

Laviski wrote: »

random question.
is there many people paying the membership or most just PAYG?

I'm still on the free plan, will be going to PAYG as soon as it runs out. I suspect a lot of others will too, the paying plan only makes sense if you do a lot of public charging

obi604

liamog wrote: »

I'm on a membership, but only because they gave it to us for free for the first year. I'll be switching to pay&go when it's up.

Same here.

liamog

I'm on a membership, but only because they gave it to us for free for the first year. I'll be switching to pay&go when it's up.

Laviski

random question.
is there many people paying the membership or most just PAYG?

the_amazing_raisin

slave1 wrote: »

Was there last week, hardly saw an EV anywhere yet the place is littered with (mostly free) charge points, Tesla network up there great apart from weakness in Edinburgh where there is only two and they are in the airport car park

It's bizarre to see the charging network outpacing the cars so much. I wonder how the SNP is going to keep their promise of only EVs being sold by 2032.

I'd like to bring anyone there saying they won't get an EV because the charging network in Scotland isn't good enough on a road trip down here with my Leaf 24

Once this COVID nonsense is sorted (and I've a new EV) I think I'll need to take a road trip up there.

Andy from EVM seems to quite like the NC500 route, maybe I'll have a go at that

slave1

Was there last week, hardly saw an EV anywhere yet the place is littered with (mostly free) charge points, Tesla network up there great apart from weakness in Edinburgh where there is only two and they are in the airport car park

the_amazing_raisin

Meanwhile in countries that actually care about their charging network:

https://www.electrive.com/2020/08/11/scotland-opens-largest-ev-charging-park-yet/

Seriously considering moving to Scotland now, if only I could understand the language

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

Waterford 50kW is up to it's old tricks again of being down. At least they've installed that 44kW DC backup now. Think it's a battle between Waterford and Sligo for the most unreliable charger.

I guess battling for the most unreliable train service wasn't enough for them :rolleyes:

Black_Knight

Looks like Ashford got an updated 22kW unit. One of the new eVolve Smart T models.

Still no movement on Clifdens busted unit though.

Waterford 50kW is up to it's old tricks again of being down. At least they've installed that 44kW DC backup now. Think it's a battle between Waterford and Sligo for the most unreliable charger.

McGiver

cruisey1987 wrote:

The charger itself costs quite a bit more AFAIK, several times the cost of an AC unit. But yes even if they had to load balance the chargers and they weren't supplying the full 50kW all the time it'd still be better than AC units that aren't being fully utilised.

Correct. DC chargers are very costly. Hence everyone (private) installs AC chargers. Huge difference in costs.

I'm saying that the best bang for the buck is 2x11 kW, 2x22 kW is pointless as there are only 10% cars max who can take that power (Tesla S dual charger and Zoes).

Yes 2x 22-25 kW DC would be the best but it's expensive and prone to faults.

the_amazing_raisin

obi604 wrote: »

its probably been discussed before............but just looking at the pricing below, seems to be no real incentive to do the membership thing. works out more unless you use the public chargers a lot, only seems to break even if you use > 120 kWh a month

- Pay As You Go is charged at 26.8c per kWh
- Membership is a €4.60 monthly subscription fee and a reduced charge of 23c per kWh

Yeah that's generally the case, the monthly plans work out expensive unless you're using them a lot.

I'd try and get a free card which gives you cheap Ionity rates like Maingau and just PAYG otherwise. Roads trips will be pricey but otherwise you'll be better off in the long run

obi604

its probably been discussed before............but just looking at the pricing below, seems to be no real incentive to do the membership thing. works out more unless you use the public chargers a lot, only seems to break even if you use > 120 kWh a month

- Pay As You Go is charged at 26.8c per kWh
- Membership is a €4.60 monthly subscription fee and a reduced charge of 23c per kWh

liamog

What's interesting is that the same Thai site lists a 22kW CCS CHAdeMO unit, the charger is only $10,000 cheaper than the 50kW version.
It looks like it's not so much the DC capability that you are paying for.
Here's a cached site where the Efacec QC45 (eCars Triple Head) is about twice the price of a 24kW DC charger.
Without getting firm prices, it's going to be really difficult to work out the break even points.

If a 50kW DC charger costs twice as much as a 25kW charger, then its just a question of how the halved speed will affect occupancy rates.
Bear in mind you should be planning your site for cars that are available in the next few years rather than those that are already here.

the_amazing_raisin

innrain wrote: »

At 50 kW some cars depending their SOC would throttle the charging. at 25kW unless you're at 95% the charging goes full speed. You have the same number of outlets so theoretically you can charge @ 50kW all day long.
.

I think it'd be better to supply 50kW through either plug if the other is free, that seems to be the direction some suppliers are going for DC charging hubs. I saw one recently where the individual chargers could supply 220kW but the site power supply wouldn't support all chargers at full power so would throttle them if they were all in use.

The reasoning was that typically some of the cars will not be taking the full 220kW, so it was unlikely the chargers would be throttled significantly.

Taking the same example to 50kW, you could have 4x50kW plugs supplied by a 100kW supply. If 1-2 EVs are plugged in they can get the full 50kW but if another comes along then it'll throttle. But by that time one of the EVs is probably throttling it's own charger so that'll make more power available for the other cars.

Worst case scenario, all 4 are supplying 25kW, which is still better than 22kW AC

innrain

That why I said 2x25kW. The price is more competitive; ratio 4:1.
At 50 kW some cars depending their SOC would throttle the charging. at 25kW unless you're at 95% the charging goes full speed. You have the same number of outlets so theoretically you can charge @ 50kW all day long.
Delta, the supplier of the 150 kW has one unit

This one looks rebranded but the price is there https://evonestop.co.uk/products/rapid-charger-dc-25-kw

It is a compromise but I think is an optimization for both the supplier/retailer and customers. And I speak from the point of the guy without charger at home. If I have to choose I will not necessarily choose Tesco because the have a SCP where I can charge 35km while shopping. I still need to go to a FCP. While on the other hand 130 km is not the best but I'll postpone my FCP visit for tomorrow.

liamog

They are both Circontrol units, the Circontrol Raption 50 CCS CHA T2S32 and the Circontrol eVolve Smart T.

Not sure what price eCars are getting them for, but according to this random site from Thailand, the DC charger is $87,000 versus $10,400.
That's roughly in line with the figures from the old RCN report that placed DC:AC chargers at a 10:1 ratio.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

Given the persons question was how much is the difference in the site works excluding the charging equipment, it answers it fairly well.

You answered it then added your own opinion, to which I am replying with relevant quoting

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

That "only" is doing an Atlas-worthy level of heavy lifting

Given the persons question was how much is the difference in the site works excluding the charging equipment, it answers it fairly well.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

it's only the charging equipment costs that would differ.

That "only" is doing an Atlas-worthy level of heavy lifting

liamog

My understanding is that the site electrical works for installing a 44kW DC charger and a dual socketed 22kW AC charging point are identical, this is why eCars have been able to upgrade the 2x22kW AC to the DC Lite (my name, hoping it catches on) chargers.
So in this case, Tesco could of installed 2 DC Lite chargers in Liffey Valley, and it's only the charging equipment costs that would differ.
For a site such as Tesco LV, I'm of the firm opinion that 2 44kW DC chargers would provide a greater local benefit than 4 22kW AC chargers.

innrain

MJohnston wrote: »

You can't simply say "up to the charger" when the price differential is at least 4x (it can be up to 10x).

The retailer generally won't see any revenue from the charging, but they may have to put up some of the outlay for the hardware.

I'm saying up to the chargers because that is the part I can't quantify. The charger bit I can. Assume I have to make a decision AC vs DC the ground work and wiring is the same up to the charger. It is unknown to me but being the same it cancels out. The only difference is given by the chargers costs which I have in front of me 8k DC vs 2k AC per outlet. That is why I said x4

Of course once we speak about long term stay then the balance tips towards the AC because you will have so much dead time with DC. The longer the average stay the lower the AC power per outlet I would think.

The retailer should get revenue and it will in the future. As right now the petrol stations are rebranded service stations and "we make more revenue by selling water than fuel" when the market share of EV's will be in tens % some retailers will realize the potential of charging on their premises.

I know we are not in the business, and we do not know costs and what not and we discuss sometimes very subjective. But by seeing a problem from different angles we learn new things.

In the meantime in the UK
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/uk-public-ev-charging-provision-increases-fivefold-five-years

KCross

innrain wrote: »

I believe that installation costs up to the charger are the same for a 2x22kW AC or 50 kW DC. For shops or private short stay car park owners 2x25kW DC makes more sense. Any car can charge full whack at 25kW DC so you always get max revenue. From AC in most cases you get one third and if you get a PHEV connected a sixth or less. Pricewise it's a factor of four but they are not that crazy. And prices are coming down fast.
Just for the sake of argument if one unit delivers 25kWh for 8 hours a day 300 days a year it is generating €15k @25c kWh in revenue, with a cost of €8k (vs €2k for AC) .
On the AC side you get people expencting it for free or cheaper &#55357;&#56847;. Slow charging for 47 mins does not make more sense so you will not get the same usage And when they are in use the output is a third, at best a half of it's capacity (I know Zoes and few Teslas but they ar fewer than PHEVs). So reduced usage, reduced output, reduced price. A cube of reasons not to.

There is alot of sense built into your point.

It is a horses for courses thing though. As you said, if the dwell time of the car is measured in minutes (e.g. Lidl) then it makes sense to go with 2x25kW DC

But if the person is likely to be there for 1,2,3hrs you dont want your expensive DC charger tied up for that time period. It might make more sense to have 8x7kW AC (or 5x11kW AC) and serve more customers.

Also, having just two plugs makes it more likely that a user who needs it doesnt get onto it when they arrive.

It would be good to see some real world costs for installing AC and DC chargers in Ireland... connection costs, installation costs, running costs etc... most of the discussions on this thread revolve around peoples ideals with no business/profit elements attached.

MJohnston

innrain wrote: »

I believe that installation costs up to the charger are the same for a 2x22kW AC or 50 kW DC. For shops or private short stay car park owners 2x25kW DC makes more sense. Any car can charge full whack at 25kW DC so you always get max revenue. From AC in most cases you get one third and if you get a PHEV connected a sixth or less. Pricewise it's a factor of four but they are not that crazy. And prices are coming down fast.

You can't simply say "up to the charger" when the price differential is at least 4x (it can be up to 10x).

The retailer generally won't see any revenue from the charging, but they may have to put up some of the outlay for the hardware.

the_amazing_raisin

innrain wrote: »

I believe that installation costs up to the charger are the same for a 2x22kW AC or 50 kW DC. For shops or private short stay car park owners 2x25kW DC makes more sense. Any car can charge full whack at 25kW DC so you always get max revenue. From AC in most cases you get one third and if you get a PHEV connected a sixth or less. Pricewise it's a factor of four but they are not that crazy. And prices are coming down fast.
Just for the sake of argument if one unit delivers 25kWh for 8 hours a day 300 days a year it is generating €15k @25c kWh in revenue, with a cost of €8k (vs €2k for AC) .
On the AC side you get people expencting it for free or cheaper 😏. Slow charging for 47 mins does not make more sense so you will not get the same usage And when they are in use the output is a third, at best a half of it's capacity (I know Zoes and few Teslas but they ar fewer than PHEVs). So reduced usage, reduced output, reduced price. A cube of reasons not to.

The charger itself costs quite a bit more AFAIK, several times the cost of an AC unit. But yes even if they had to load balance the chargers and they weren't supplying the full 50kW all the time it'd still be better than AC units that aren't being fully utilised.

the_amazing_raisin

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Meanwhile EasyGo are emailing it’s users asking to help them identify new locations for 50kW DC chargers.....

If only eCars had a similar approach...

Here's an idea, give eCars employees company cars, but EVs only. See how they live with their own charging network

I always reckon it's a problem when charger locations are being decided by non EV drivers

innrain

I believe that installation costs up to the charger are the same for a 2x22kW AC or 50 kW DC. For shops or private short stay car park owners 2x25kW DC makes more sense. Any car can charge full whack at 25kW DC so you always get max revenue. From AC in most cases you get one third and if you get a PHEV connected a sixth or less. Pricewise it's a factor of four but they are not that crazy. And prices are coming down fast.
Just for the sake of argument if one unit delivers 25kWh for 8 hours a day 300 days a year it is generating €15k @25c kWh in revenue, with a cost of €8k (vs €2k for AC) .
On the AC side you get people expencting it for free or cheaper 😏. Slow charging for 47 mins does not make more sense so you will not get the same usage And when they are in use the output is a third, at best a half of it's capacity (I know Zoes and few Teslas but they ar fewer than PHEVs). So reduced usage, reduced output, reduced price. A cube of reasons not to.

McGiver

cruisey1987 wrote:

Yeah I could see it heading that way too, usually AC chargers are somewhat cheaper to install and better suited to unattended locations.

Pretty sure installation costs are way lower. The AC charger itself is way cheaper. I'd in fact go 2x 11 kW as 22 kW is generally useless for almost all EVs. With 2x11 kW setup, you can make a lot of bang using 44 kW supply, that's 4 connectors and rather cheap. Equivalent power DC charger is several times more expensive + higher installation cost.

cruisey1987 wrote:

I'm hoping that 50kW DC chargers will get cheaper soon with the push for higher power charging in service stations. IMHO 50kW still makes sense in a lot of places with a short visit time, like supermarkets for example.

Unlikely, they're crazy expensive. Yes 50 kW DC makes sense for supermarkets but the problem is that you'll get only 1 connector for 50 kW of input. So you'd need 500 kW supply to power 10 connectors as opposed to 110 kW to the power 10x 11 kW AC connectors.

obi604

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Just down in Kilcullen now getting a quick top up from one of the last few free ESB chargers in the country......

When will these start being charged for? Days or weeks