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Child Item

working from home

mireasa

Hi all,
Hope you are safe and well.
Quick question:
I have hired my daughter to fix some papers, files etc- do administration job. She worked from home so although she had all hiring papers done and signed she wont show in the security files like be present in the unit. The job was only for 2 months.
Is this fraud?

Thank you

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OMM 0000

I'm sorry I don't understand what this means:

she wont show in the security files like be present in the unit

I would think in general giving your daughter some cash to help you out with something isn't fraud. If the amount paid was less than 3k, you can claim it was a gift so no tax would be payable.

[Deleted User]

OP, why do you think it would be fraud?

relax carry on

mireasa wrote: »

Hi all,
Hope you are safe and well.
Quick question:
I have hired my daughter to fix some papers, files etc- do administration job. She worked from home so although she had all hiring papers done and signed she wont show in the security files like be present in the unit. The job was only for 2 months.
Is this fraud?

Thank you

You hired your daughter. Are you a sole trader or a limited company? Are you registered as an employer with Revenue? Did you comply with your PMOD obligations?

mireasa

Hi,
No, sorry for confusion.
I work for a Company in a senior position and i needed some administration help. I do not have my own company.

Thank you

dennyk

Many employees are working from home these days anyway, and even absent the pandemic, 100% remote work jobs do exist (and may become more common in the future, as more companies get used to having remote workers due to COVID-19), so no, it wouldn't be "fraud" just because she was never physically in the office. As long as you had the proper authority and approvals from your employer to hire her for that work, she was actually performing the work as agreed, and you weren't violating any company policy or legislation by sending her whatever data she was working on at home, there shouldn't be any issue.

OMM 0000

Is she being paid by you (out of your pocket, no expenses claimed) or the company?

If it's by the company, has she been hired as a contractor?

If so, it's up to your daughter to pay tax, etc.

Jim2007

mireasa wrote: »

Hi all,
Hope you are safe and well.
Quick question:
I have hired my daughter to fix some papers, files etc- do administration job. She worked from home so although she had all hiring papers done and signed she wont show in the security files like be present in the unit. The job was only for 2 months.
Is this fraud?

Thank you

So you hired your daughter to do some of the work assigned to you and are paying her out of your own salary, is that correct? If so then it would seem there are two issues to be addressed:

- She needs to look after her tax and social security status

- The second issue is: are you letting an unauthorised person to have access to company information and possibly systems as well... if so and it is discovered, then yes I guess it could have major consequences for you, but not fraud.

[Deleted User]

Jim2007 wrote: »

So you hired your daughter to do some of the work assigned to you and are paying her out of your own salary, is that correct? If so then it would seem there are two issues to be addressed:

- She needs to look after her tax and social security status

- The second issue is: are you letting an unauthorised person to have access to company information and possibly systems as well... if so and it is discovered, then yes I guess it could have major consequences for you, but not fraud.

He is in a senior position so likely has the authority to allow people have access if he desires.

I’m in a reasonably senior position in the company I work in but not very senior by any means and the decision of what and who to share info with and how much to share etc is left up to me at work. I know myself if I need an NDA and will have have it signed off by senior Management within the hour no questions asked.

I’ve brought friends and family members into the premises many times also, shown them around behind the scenes without issue. Usually an hello from anyone senior and a chat if they bump into us. Very same in my previous job also, I think most of my close family and friends got tours and a look at what went on in company.

Strumms

Samuel Abundant Lottery wrote: »

He is in a senior position so likely has the authority to allow people have access if he desires.

I’m in a reasonably senior position in the company I work in but not very senior by any means and the decision of what and who to share info with and how much to share etc is left up to me at work. I know myself if I need an NDA and will have have it signed off by senior Management within the hour no questions asked.

I’ve brought friends and family members into the premises many times also, shown them around behind the scenes without issue. Usually an hello from anyone senior and a chat if they bump into us. Very same in my previous job also, I think most of my close family and friends got tours and a look at what went on in company.

It’s probably quite different though... between giving people a tour of a facility, say a presentation of how things work, a walk around and to meet and greet employees and ask a few questions ..... to allowing people, be they family members or otherwise to have access to company and personal info about employees...

Padre_Pio

There's probably something in your own contract about confidentiality. Fair enough we all talk about work to friends and family, but giving someone else the keys to (I presume) company information is likely a step too far.

Would it have been that much hassle to ask your company to hire her as an intern or something?

Also, why bother going through the rigmarole of hiring for 8 weeks work?

[Deleted User]

Samuel Abundant Lottery wrote: »

He is in a senior position so likely has the authority to allow people have access if he desires.

I’m in a reasonably senior position in the company I work in but not very senior by any means and the decision of what and who to share info with and how much to share etc is left up to me at work. I know myself if I need an NDA and will have have it signed off by senior Management within the hour no questions asked.

I’ve brought friends and family members into the premises many times also, shown them around behind the scenes without issue. Usually an hello from anyone senior and a chat if they bump into us. Very same in my previous job also, I think most of my close family and friends got tours and a look at what went on in company.

That's funny. Do you work for Disney? Or maybe a fireworks factory?

Edit; not trying to derail the thread, but...

nibtrix

mireasa wrote: »

she had all hiring papers done and signed

Done and signed by who? HR or a recruitment person in your company? Who paid her, the company or you?

Mastroianni

I have a few legal queries about working from home. Actually, this is the basis of my personal fight with my employer because I believe they are mocking me with some inconsistencies. I would like to return to my home country within EU, keeping my fiscal residence here in Ireland. So from a government perspective wouldn't be an issue because I will keep paying taxes.
But the employer is stating that:

1. Working remotely could be an issue because if I might fall at home (?!) I wouldn't be insured. Now, I don't have any insurance but I hardly believe that my employer or Client that I'm working with gonna pay me anything if I fall downstairs here in Dublin. So first b.u.l.l.s.h.i.t

2. If I work remotely I might steal my equipment (lol). This is easily fixed: they can retain money from my last payslip.

3. Double taxation, if I have a residence in Ireland but I live continuously in another EU country I might be incurred in double taxation. Now, this is true until a certain point. I can certainly be double taxed but only if I stay 6 months in a row in another country. If I jump in Ireland each couple of months, staying a couple of weeks, double taxation is avoided. Also, anyway if I have to pay double taxation it won't be an issue for my employer but mine, so where is the issue here?

Do you have some specific experience about it? Or have you dealt already with your Employer?
Please advise guys.

Sarn

I’ve seen this come up before. Some of the issues highlighted related to your employer potentially being subject to employment law in the country you are working in and potentially the loss of favourable tax benefits (corporation tax I assume) to the company. How true this is I don’t know.

dennyk

Mastroianni wrote: »

1. Working remotely could be an issue because if I might fall at home (?!) I wouldn't be insured. Now, I don't have any insurance but I hardly believe that my employer or Client that I'm working with gonna pay me anything if I fall downstairs here in Dublin. So first b.u.l.l.s.h.i.t

This is a legitimate concern; if you are injured while working, your employer has liability. Not just for trip-and-fall situations, either; technically they are supposed to have an ergonomic study of your work area in your home conducted to make sure it meets health and safety requirements, and if you end up suffering from an RSI or similar injury due to poor ergonomics, your employer (and their insurance) could be held responsible. Whether you'd actually sue them over it or not is immaterial; they can't guarantee that you won't, therefore it's a liability risk. Many employers just accept the risk, but some might have insurance coverage which won't allow it.

Mastroianni wrote: »

2. If I work remotely I might steal my equipment (lol). This is easily fixed: they can retain money from my last payslip.

This is indeed a bit silly; most employers don't automatically assume their employees are thieves. Plenty of employers support work-from-home and have no issues with theft. That said, they could only deduct from your pay to cover the theft of said equipment if it's in your contract, so if it isn't, it could become a hassle for them. Regardless, that is a bit nonsensical, though.

Mastroianni wrote: »

3. Double taxation, if I have a residence in Ireland but I live continuously in another EU country I might be incurred in double taxation. Now, this is true until a certain point. I can certainly be double taxed but only if I stay 6 months in a row in another country. If I jump in Ireland each couple of months, staying a couple of weeks, double taxation is avoided. Also, anyway if I have to pay double taxation it won't be an issue for my employer but mine, so where is the issue here?

This is actually a significant issue (or set of issues, actually), and is likely the primary blocker to your employer allowing you to go through with your plan.

First of all, most countries base tax residence on time spent in the country in total during a tax year, with no requirement that the time in question be consecutive or uninterrupted. If you reside in, say, Italy, taking a trip to Ireland for a couple weeks every couple of months will not affect your tax residency in Italy, nor will it make you tax-resident in Ireland. (You'll still be ordinarily resident in Ireland for a while, most likely, and you might remain domiciled in Ireland depending on the nature of your relocation, but that just adds to the complexity of your personal tax situation...) True "double taxation" (in the sense of paying full tax twice on the same income) is generally not an issue except under unusual circumstances due to tax treaties between most EU countries, but make no mistake, if you spend a year in another EU country, minus several two-week periods you spent visiting Ireland, you'll almost certainly be tax-resident there and not tax-resident in Ireland, and will owe taxes on your income in that other country.

The other issue is your employer's tax and legal situation, beyond your personal taxes. If you are present and working for them while in another country, they will usually be obligated to register a business presence in that country, and will have to pay employer taxes and other contributions in that country, in addition to any withholding of your personal taxes they are required to perform. They will also have to follow the employment laws of the country you reside in, which might be different than Irish employment laws. If your employer doesn't have an office in the country in question already, they are likely not familiar with all of the laws or the tax system in that country, and setting up there is likely to be complex and expensive; it's not something they'll do for a single employee just to satisfy your personal desire to live abroad.

Mastroianni

Thanks for the long and insightful reply. As I expected the trickiest part is the double taxation.
But very quickly regarding the first point, being injured, I can issue a waiver, a paper to send by post or via email, stating that I release the Company from all responsibilities if I may be injured while working. So issue solved really.

The post about the double taxation is complex but not impossible to deal with, just because many other companies allowed employees to go anywhere but in EU: Facebook, Google, Twitter, SAS, SAP, and for sure many others.
So it's not just a personal desire. Ah, just another detail: I'm not going to remove my residence in Ireland, fiscally I will be here (PPSN, bank account, Embassy, Government, etc.).
Moreover how all this will comply with the remote working law that are discussing in Parlament? It will be a "stretch" about fiscality and residence?

Mrs OBumble

Mastroianni wrote: »

So it's not just a personal desire. Ah, just another detail: I'm not going to remove my residence in Ireland, fiscally I will be here (PPSN, bank account, Embassy, Government, etc.).
Moreover how all this will comply with the remote working law that are discussing in Parlament? It will be a "stretch" about fiscality and residence?

There is no such thing as fiscal residence.

There is only ordinarily residence ( where you usually live) and domicile (very roughly, where you were born, modified by long term decisions to change).

You don't get to choose what country you pay tax in, its based on where you live for most of the time.

If your employer already has an office in your home country, they may be willing to let you transfer there - and your salary will be based on rates there too. If they don't already have an office there, then setting up in a new country just for your sake would be a lot to ask

Mastroianni

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

There is no such thing as fiscal residence.

There is only ordinarily residence ( where you usually live) and domicile (very roughly, where you were born, modified by long term decisions to change).

You don't get to choose what country you pay tax in, its based on where you live for most of the time.

If your employer already has an office in your home country, they may be willing to let you transfer there - and your salary will be based on rates there too. If they don't already have an office there, then setting up in a new country just for your sake would be a lot to ask

ok so how why some companies allowed people to go to Spain whilst don't have office there?

nibtrix

Mastroianni wrote: »

ok so how why some companies allowed people to go to Spain whilst don't have office there?

I know of quite a few "large" companies that have told people in the last few months that they must return to Ireland and cannot continue to work abroad. In many cases it was allowed for a short period early in the pandemic but as the time has extended they have realised that they are at risk if they allow this to continue. My own company has sent out a number of warnings that you must remain in Ireland if you are working and that no-one can work from another country unless specific approval has been given.

Mastroianni wrote: »

But very quickly regarding the first point, being injured, I can issue a waiver, a paper to send by post or via email, stating that I release the Company from all responsibilities if I may be injured while working. So issue solved really.

I may be wrong, but I don't think you can contract out of your legal rights, or to put it another way the company can't contract out of their legal responsibilities. Most "waivers" for injury aren't worth the paper they are written on.

Mastroianni

I don't know here but in all EU if you write a waiver this can be used in a legal trial, of course, it must be "substantial": for example I cannot write a waiver which allows me to be a slave of someone or something because it's illegal.

listermint

Mastroianni wrote: »

I don't know here but in all EU if you write a waiver this can be used in a legal trial, of course, it must be "substantial": for example I cannot write a waiver which allows me to be a slave of someone or something because it's illegal.

It's simple .

If your company has not office in your home country then you can't be transferred there and therefore have to be present and working in Ireland for the number of days set out by the revenue service of Ireland.

There is no way around this. Should you want to work in your home country then you are going to have to quit your job and get one there.

There is no waifer or modification your company can do for you. They are also under no obligation to setup and office in your country to suit you.

Mastroianni

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/double-taxation/index_en.htm

In these situations, while you will always be subject to the tax rules of your country of residence, you may also have to pay taxes in the other country.

Fortunately, however, most countries have double tax agreementsOpen as an external link. These agreements usually spare you from double taxation:

listermint

Mastroianni wrote: »

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/double-taxation/index_en.htm

In these situations, while you will always be subject to the tax rules of your country of residence, you may also have to pay taxes in the other country.

Fortunately, however, most countries have double tax agreementsOpen as an external link. These agreements usually spare you from double taxation:

I'm not sure who you are trying to convince here.

I think you might find your only option is to move jobs to another company tax resident in your chosen location.

Mastroianni

listermint wrote: »

I'm not sure who you are trying to convince here.

I think you might find your only option is to move jobs to another company tax resident in your chosen location.

I'm not convicing nobody, I'm here to discuss, this is the purpose of the forum.
Did you read those post? This void the resignation and move out situation. There are agreementes between States, this is what I would to understand.
But maybe is better ask to my top management.

Mrs OBumble

Mastroianni wrote: »

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/double-taxation/index_en.htm

In these situations, while you will always be subject to the tax rules of your country of residence, you may also have to pay taxes in the other country.

Fortunately, however, most countries have double tax agreementsOpen as an external link. These agreements usually spare you from double taxation:

Double taxation may be the phrase which was used, but its not the real reason.

You need to pay tax accordingly to the laws of the country you are LIVING in, and meet the requirements of other countries where you have financial affairs.

Mastroianni

ok guys, I will have this discussion and I will let you know.

dennyk

Mastroianni wrote: »

Thanks for the long and insightful reply. As I expected the trickiest part is the double taxation.
But very quickly regarding the first point, being injured, I can issue a waiver, a paper to send by post or via email, stating that I release the Company from all responsibilities if I may be injured while working. So issue solved really.

Not necessarily; a waiver of liability generally cannot override the law, and if the law states that an employer is responsible for injuries suffered by their workers while on the job, workers can't generally waive that liability. You'd have to speak to a solicitor to determine exactly what specific liability could be successfully waived in that area, as I'm not familiar with the laws there, but it's likely that such a waiver could not entirely absolve your employer of responsibility for any injuries you suffer while working at home.

Mastroianni wrote: »

The post about the double taxation is complex but not impossible to deal with, just because many other companies allowed employees to go anywhere but in EU: Facebook, Google, Twitter, SAS, SAP, and for sure many others.
So it's not just a personal desire.

The companies you mention are very large multi-nationals and most likely have an office in many EU countries. If they do already have a business presence established in another EU country, it greatly simplifies the process of transferring an EU employee to that country. It's when the company doesn't have an existing business presence in a country that such a transfer becomes complicated and expensive for the employer. If your employer already has an office in the country you want to move to, the chances of getting them to agree to such a move are definitely higher. (Just don't be surprised if such a move also involves a salary adjustment to match the local market...they're not likely to keep paying you Dublin wages if you're going to be living and working in Romania or Croatia or Portugal or whatnot).

Mastroianni wrote: »

Ah, just another detail: I'm not going to remove my residence in Ireland, fiscally I will be here (PPSN, bank account, Embassy, Government, etc.).

There is no such thing as "fiscal residence". Having a PPSN and an Irish bank account does not confer tax residency in Ireland if you aren't physically present in the country for more than half of a tax year. Such things might have certain tax implications otherwise (e.g. DIRT from any interest income on your Irish bank account will likely be withheld automatically and would need to be claimed back), but they do not make you resident in Ireland for tax purposes.

Mastroianni wrote: »

Moreover how all this will comply with the remote working law that are discussing in Parlament? It will be a "stretch" about fiscality and residence?

Assuming you're talking about the National Remote Work Strategy, I don't believe the details of any proposed legislation have been released yet, but I can guarantee you that any regulations which do result will definitely not obligate any employer to allow an employee to work remotely from outside of Ireland. Such a thing wouldn't even be possible, legally speaking, as a worker living and working outside Ireland would not be subject to Irish employment law in any case; they'd be governed by the law in the country in which they are actually performing their work.

In any case, the proposed laws aren't even going to force employers to allow remote work in all cases, only to give reasonable consideration to remote work requests from employees. It will always be up to the employer whether remote work is feasible for a particular employee, and they can always decide that it isn't a reasonable option for any number of reasons (provided that they have evidence to back up that decision should it go to the WRC).

username2013

listermint wrote: »

It's simple .

If your company has not office in your home country then you can't be transferred there and therefore have to be present and working in Ireland for the number of days set out by the revenue service of Ireland.

There is no way around this. Should you want to work in your home country then you are going to have to quit your job and get one there.

Are you sure the above is correct? Here it states that you can choose to be tax resident in Ireland - https://www.revenue.ie/en/jobs-and-pensions/tax-residence/how-to-know-if-you-are-resident-for-tax-purposes.aspx

I am in a similar situation to the OP. I have contacted this company: https://www.expertsforexpats.com/ and have talked to a tax expert here in Canada re my situation. She did not see any legal issues as long as I declare my income in my Canadian tax return. That company(listed above) specifically is setup to help expats do all this. There is a treaty between Ireland and Canada.

(btw - I have no affiliation with said company!)

Mrs OBumble

username2013 wrote: »

listermint wrote: »

It's simple .

If your company has not office in your home country then you can't be transferred there and therefore have to be present and working in Ireland for the number of days set out by the revenue service of Ireland.

There is no way around this. Should you want to work in your home country then you are going to have to quit your job and get one there.

Are you sure the above is correct? Here it states that you can choose to be tax resident in Ireland - https://www.revenue.ie/en/jobs-and-pensions/tax-residence/how-to-know-if-you-are-resident-for-tax-purposes.aspx

I am in a similar situation to the OP. I have contacted this company: https://www.expertsforexpats.com/ and have talked to a tax expert here in Canada re my situation. She did not see any legal issues as long as I declare my income in my Canadian tax return. That company(listed above) specifically is setup to help expats do all this. There is a treaty between Ireland and Canada.

(btw - I have no affiliation with said company!)

Read it harder: it says ...
If you are going to be tax resident the following year, you can choose to be tax resident the year you arrive in Ireland.

That is the only circumstance in which you can choose.

nibtrix

username2013 wrote: »

Are you sure the above is correct? Here it states that you can choose to be tax resident in Ireland - https://www.revenue.ie/en/jobs-and-pensions/tax-residence/how-to-know-if-you-are-resident-for-tax-purposes.aspx

The page you've linked says you can choose to be tax resident in Ireland in ONE specific circumstance, i.e. if you have moved to Ireland part way through a year and won't have enough days this particular year, but you will be tax resident in Ireland the following year:

Can you choose to be tax resident?
You might not have spent the required number of days in Ireland to be resident for tax purposes. If you are going to be tax resident the following year, you can choose to be tax resident the year you arrive in Ireland.

I don't think that could be used in any other way to allow you to "choose" tax residency when you are choosing to live in another country...