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Blatant Cheating

dan_ep82

Been on the forum a few years now and it always seems to come up regularly.

The main one seems to be handicap manipulation. Even here, where I'd judge we have more golfers who are in it for the love of the game and not the winners circle accusations are thrown around a bit.

Then you have the winks and nods about certain clubs about inter club comps. ( I don't follow interclub so couldn't comment on this)

What I'd like to know is have you ever caught someone blatantly cheating, where if you had a go pro on your head it's a clear cut case?

I'm playing 5 or 6 years and I've only ever suspected one guy of breaking the rules on purpose to better his ( admittedly atrocious ) score on the day.

With the way some posters go on you would expect alot of instances but I don't think we will get them.

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Russman

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

Interesting thread.

Edit: Also, was playing casual round one day and after one of the players played a shot into the par 3, I said "great shot, what club was that?". Third player says "If you do that in competition before you play your shot, you will be disqualified". Good to know.

Not to be a pedant, but I’m pretty sure you’re penalised two shots, not DQ’d if you give advice.

ryaner777

tayto lover wrote: »

The leather wedge and the magic pencil are very common.
I know of two lads suspended from competitions in the last month for cheating.
Both reported by members and neither were old lads.
Things won’t change if members don’t report.

What is "the leather wedge" ? Never heard that term before.

billy3sheets

ryaner777 wrote: »

What is "the leather wedge" ? Never heard that term before.

It's a term from ye olden days when shoes used to be made from... leather!

Seve OB

ryaner777 wrote: »

What is "the leather wedge" ? Never heard that term before.

An aul kick of the boot.

PabloAndRoy

Russman wrote: »

Not to be a pedant, but I’m pretty sure you’re penalised two shots, not DQ’d if you give advice.

You are correct. I just checked.

So genuine question: If I get a drop and am unsure of where I should drop. Can I ask a more experienced player? Or is that seeking advice and a 2 stroke penalty?

Definition from R&A of what is not advice:

==========
But advice does not include public information, such as:

The location of things on the course such as the hole, the putting green, the fairway, penalty areas, bunkers, or another player’s ball,
The distance from one point to another, or
The Rules.

==========

So asking about the rules (e.g. drop location) is not advice, right?

ChippingSodbury

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

You are correct. I just checked.

So genuine question: If I get a drop and am unsure of where I should drop. Can I ask a more experienced player? Or is that seeking advice and a 2 stroke penalty?

Definition from R&A of what is not advice:

==========
But advice does not include public information, such as:

The location of things on the course such as the hole, the putting green, the fairway, penalty areas, bunkers, or another player’s ball,

The distance from one point to another, or

The Rules.

==========

So asking about the rules (e.g. drop location) is not advice, right?

That's right: asking about the rules is not advice. If a player ends up in a bush and asks you what are the choices, you can tell him that:
he can play it as it lies
he can drop within 2 clublengths not nearer the hole
he can drop back as far as he wants in direct line to the hole and not nearer to the hole
he can return to the original spot and play again
all above for 1 shot penalty
None of that is advice. If he then asks you which one he should choose, an answer to that would be advice and not permitted e.g. "I would drop within 2 clublengths if I were you"

Wombatman

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

That's right: asking about the rules is not advice. If a player ends up in a bush and asks you what are the choices, you can tell him that:
he can play it as it lies
he can drop within 2 clublengths not nearer the hole
he can drop back as far as he wants in direct line to the hole and not nearer to the hole
he can return to the original spot and play again
all above for 1 shot penalty
None of that is advice. If he then asks you which one he should choose, an answer to that would be advice and not permitted e.g. "I would drop within 2 clublengths if I were you"

No penalty for playing it as it lies.

Wombatman

Must be a fair few lads using the elevation reading on the auld range finder in comps. Impossible to police.

begbysback

Everybody seems to know all the angles on this thread, yet no open admissions, it always seems to be someone else, what we really need around here is an amnesty thread, kinda like the tax amnesty a few years back, admit your indiscretions and move on - what say yee?

Seve OB

begbysback wrote: »

Everybody seems to know all the angles on this thread, yet no open admissions, it always seems to be someone else, what we really need around here is an amnesty thread, kinda like the tax amnesty a few years back, admit your indiscretions and move on - what say yee?

oh ok so.

few years ago i was playing in a team comp. i hit my tee shot over the water on a par 3. wasn't entirely sure i'd made it across so declared a provisional. one of my very experienced team mates told me i couldn't hit a provisional.

i ignored him and hit one anyway.

TBH i can't remember if i found the original ball or not, think i may have.

but i was told the rule and ignored it

blue note

begbysback wrote: »

Everybody seems to know all the angles on this thread, yet no open admissions, it always seems to be someone else, what we really need around here is an amnesty thread, kinda like the tax amnesty a few years back, admit your indiscretions and move on - what say yee?

I've knowingly ignored the don't ask what club someone hit rule. I'd never ask to gain an advantage, but if someone hits a par 5 in two with an iron, or hits a big drive on the long index 1 and reaches the green with a high lofted club, they often like to share that they got there with a drive and a wedge or something. And in my view they've probably earned the right to enjoy it so I'll ask them as a way of saying well done.

But I wouldn't watch someone go long on a par 3 before I hit and then ask them to see if I need less club. That would be cheating.

Another I was wrong on was a combo of two rules I didn't know properly. I thought an unplayable lie was a lie that you thought was unplayable as opposed to declared unplayable even though you could actually play it. And I thought free relief was the nearest point of relief that was playable. So if I was taking relief from a path, I'd identify the nearest point of relief that wasn't in a bush, or drain, etc. If it was thick rough, or under a tree or the like fair enough, but I didn't think free relief could result in a penalty essentially. I was mistaken. I can't think of a specific time I broke that rule, but I must have.

I'd be surprised if many people would knowingly break a rule to gain an advantage. But if anyone thinks they've never broken a rule they're very naive.

DuckSlice

blue note wrote: »

I've knowingly ignored the don't ask what club someone hit rule. I'd never ask to gain an advantage, but if someone hits a par 5 in two with an iron, or hits a big drive on the long index 1 and reaches the green with a high lofted club, they often like to share that they got there with a drive and a wedge or something. And in my view they've probably earned the right to enjoy it so I'll ask them as a way of saying well done.

But I wouldn't watch someone go long on a par 3 before I hit and then ask them to see if I need less club. That would be cheating.

Another I was wrong on was a combo of two rules I didn't know properly. I thought an unplayable lie was a lie that you thought was unplayable as opposed to declared unplayable even though you could actually play it. And I thought free relief was the nearest point of relief that was playable. So if I was taking relief from a path, I'd identify the nearest point of relief that wasn't in a bush, or drain, etc. If it was thick rough, or under a tree or the like fair enough, but I didn't think free relief could result in a penalty essentially. I was mistaken. I can't think of a specific time I broke that rule, but I must have.

I'd be surprised if many people would knowingly break a rule to gain an advantage. But if anyone thinks they've never broken a rule they're very naive.

Its up to the individual if a lie is unplayable or not I though? I can declare a ball in the middle of the fairway unplayable if I so wish. That was my understanding of it.

Seve OB

I've pointed out rule infringements plenty of times. generally it is a heads up, did you know sort of thing, an education if you like so that you don't do it again or get caught on the hop if you are in a match or something.
i'm sure I've been given similar nods over the 30+ years I've been playing golf

mostly it is met with a thanks, glad to know that sort of vibe, but sometimes you can feel the resentment even if nothing is said, sometimes it is challenged, sometimes you are told you don't know what you are talking about.

I look up the rules a lot. if there is an instance on the course and questions are raised, i'll either whip out the book or look up online after. of course that nearly always leads to going off on some sort of tangent and browsing of other rules.

there is a great facility on the R&S rules site of a quiz. I play it lots, nearly always will throw something up at you that you don't know, are unsure of, think you know but maybe it's a trick.... well worth mucking around with to brush up your knowledge

https://www.randa.org/Rog/2019/Pages/Quiz

blue note

etxp wrote: »

Its up to the individual if a lie is unplayable or not I though? I can declare a ball in the middle of the fairway unplayable if I so wish. That was my understanding of it.

Yes, that's correct. I thought it was like saying "my ball went into the hazard here." ie you actually have to believe it to be able to use it as a point of entry. So if you declare your ball unplayable I thought you actually had to believe you couldn't play it.

But I was wrong. As you say you can declare your ball on the fairway unplayable. I wish they'd change the words used as it's misleading. And if anyone says it's fine, everyone understands it. I didn't after a couple of decades playing the game.

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

Yes, that's correct. I thought it was like saying "my ball went into the hazard here." ie you actually have to believe it to be able to use it as a point of entry. So if you declare your ball unplayable I thought you actually had to believe you couldn't play it.

But I was wrong. As you say you can declare your ball on the fairway unplayable. I wish they'd change the words used as it's misleading. And if anyone says it's fine, everyone understands it. I didn't after a couple of decades playing the game.

Easier to just realise that you can replay any shot anywhere for 1 penalty stroke. (Unless the ball is in the hole)

Golfhead65

gypsy79 wrote: »

Had a lad play with me on Wednesday who was a pavilion member of a upper class Dublin course but maintained a distance membership in another course

Anyway I played with two lads. Had 32 points. Missed loads of small putts. I had more points than both of them combined

one lad wasnt in competition. He basically told me he just wanted get his handicap down from 25.

I check results and see he has entered 38 points. He came ****ing 4th

I dont think he was trying to win

But he put a 4 in for our index 1 for 4 points and he lost 3 balls off tee. Enough said

Second abuse of COVID relaxations I have seen

Report it

[Deleted User]

Seve OB wrote: »

there is a great facility on the R&S rules site of a quiz. I play it lots, nearly always will throw something up at you that you don't know, are unsure of, think you know but maybe it's a trick.... well worth mucking around with to brush up your knowledge

https://www.randa.org/Rog/2019/Pages/Quiz

Will be using that cheers.

And from my first attempt at it, Ive learned im a cheater :eek:

I've definitely pressed clubs into the ground before shots not trying to improve a lie but found it a nice way to relieve tension from my hands. But apparently you can't.

I dont play in comps ever anyways but still like to try play as fair as possible

Synode

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Will be using that cheers.

And from my first attempt at it, Ive learned im a cheater :eek:

I've definitely pressed clubs into the ground before shots not trying to improve a lie but found it a nice way to relieve tension from my hands. But apparently you can't.

I dont play in comps ever anyways but still like to try play as fair as possible

What rule is that? Thought that's fine as long as the ball doesn't move or if it does it returns to original position (i.e. a spring up down)

blue note

Synode wrote: »

What rule is that? Thought that's fine as long as the ball doesn't move or if it does it returns to original position (i.e. a spring up down)

You can address the ball by resting your club before it. You can't press the ground down in front of your ball, that's improving your lies.

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

Easier to just realise that you can replay any shot anywhere for 1 penalty stroke. (Unless the ball is in the hole)

It would be easier and I think they should rephrase the rule to remove the "unplayable lie" part of it, since it's misleading. For golf rules in general they rely on the players honesty, so I always assumed when declaring a lie unplayable you had to sincerely think it was. In the same way that you had to be sure a ball crossed a hazard, not just say that it did it in the same way that for relief from an embedded ball it actually has to be embedded, etc.

DuckSlice

Deleted User wrote: »

Will be using that cheers.

And from my first attempt at it, Ive learned im a cheater :eek:

I've definitely pressed clubs into the ground before shots not trying to improve a lie but found it a nice way to relieve tension from my hands. But apparently you can't.

I dont play in comps ever anyways but still like to try play as fair as possible

I done worse in the beginner quiz than the expert one!!! Going to have to start reading the rules again while having toilet time

Seve OB

blue note wrote: »

For golf rules in general they rely on the players honesty, so I always assumed when declaring a lie unplayable you had to sincerely think it was.

Phil Mickleson springs to mind

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/us-open-2018-the-usga-still-got-it-wrong-when-it-didnt-dq-phil-mickelson

added a link there. i remembered incorrectly, he "should have" taken an unplayable lie and gone back

DuckSlice

Seve OB wrote: »

Phil Mickleson springs to mind

Should there be a separate penalty for intentionally breaking the rules to better your situation, with the intention of taking the penalty for that rule break? If that makes sense?

[Deleted User]

Is there any document or policy from the GUI on dealing with cheating?

Synode

blue note wrote: »

You can address the ball by resting your club before it. You can't press the ground down in front of your ball, that's improving your lies.

Sorry I was talking about behind the ball, not in front. Is it the same?

PabloAndRoy

It seems "Rules of Golf" could be a subject on Mastermind.

Seve OB

Synode wrote: »

Sorry I was talking about behind the ball, not in front. Is it the same?

yes

Seve OB

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

It seems "Rules of Golf" could be a subject on Mastermind.

that would be excellent

Ottoman_1000

A bit off topic as its not a story of blatant cheating but more of a clarification of the rules. I was playing golf in a open last week with 2 other non-members. One of the lads was a young enough lad and was fairly new to golf so naturally had a few questions throughout the round and I helped to the best of my knowledge.

Anyway we get to the 14th tee, par 4 and about 100 yards from the tee box there is a single line of trees that run perpendicular to the fairway on both sides. The young lad tees up and clips one of the tress to the right of the fairway and the ball drops behind the row of trees. As we head off and we are approaching where the young lads ball came down, we notice that there is a shallow dry dyke that runs behind the line of trees but there is no steaks or anything to indicate that it is a hazard. The dyke was full of loose leaves and rocks but we located the ball anyway, the young fella ask me what his options are and I tell him he is entitled to declare an unplayable but its up to him. This is where the other guy chimes in as he was in no way allowing him to declare it as an unplayable, he claimed the ball was there to be hit. I would not be a rules expert so we took the advice of the other fella as I wasn't 100% sure. Anyway young attempts his shot and as I expected we hear a loud crack off a snapped club, he definitely hurt he hand too but he did not say anything but he was in clear discomfort as he finished his round.

I came away a bit disappointed in myself that I didn't know what the exact rules were around the situation but if it was me there would be no way I would have hit out of there for fear of injury.

blue note

Ottoman_1000 wrote: »

A bit off topic as its not a story of blatant cheating but more of a clarification of the rules. I was playing golf in a open last week with 2 other non-members. One of the lads was a young enough lad and was fairly new to golf so naturally had a few questions throughout the round and I helped to the best of my knowledge.

Anyway we get to the 14th tee, par 4 and about 100 yards from the tee box there is a single line of trees that run perpendicular to the fairway on both sides. The young lad tees up and clips one of the tress to the right of the fairway and the ball drops behind the row of trees. As we head off and we are approaching where the young lads ball came down, we notice that there is a shallow dry dyke that runs behind the line of trees but there is no steaks or anything to indicate that it is a hazard. The dyke was full of loose leaves and rocks but we located the ball anyway, the young fella ask me what his options are and I tell him he is entitled to declare an unplayable but its up to him. This is where the other guy chimes in as he was in no way allowing him to declare it as an unplayable, he claimed the ball was there to be hit. I would not be a rules expert so we took the advice of the other fella as I wasn't 100% sure. Anyway young attempts his shot and as I expected we hear a loud crack off a snapped club, he definitely hurt he hand too but he did not say anything but he was in clear discomfort as he finished his round.

I came away a bit disappointed in myself that I didn't know what the exact rules were around the situation but if it was me there would be no way I would have hit out of there for fear of injury.

That's exactly the type of confusion I'm talking about with that rule - it's called declaring an unplayable lie, but that's not actually what you're doing.

That said, I always thought it was up to the player to decide if it was unplayable and if it's in a lie like that I'd certainly have considered it unplayable. A risk to a club is definitely something that would make it unplayable.