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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RyanthePirate

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

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[Deleted User]

biko wrote: »

I suppose Japan could be multicultural bliss if we only look at religions.
Buddhism arrived from China and Korea about 1500 years ago, but the native Shinto religion wasn't displaced.

There was some conflict and religious wars to start with, but after a while the two religions settled into coexistence.

One of the things I love about Asia is that there is no real religious history, the way there is in the West or the M.East. The lack of organised religion with political agendas has given most of the countries a very honest approach towards religious integration. They had their religious wars, but learned early to remove religion from governments, or even any community authority. Japan is interesting because of the role the Emperor played by keeping religious attention focused on a single figure, that mostly kept out of people's lives.

Wibbs

DublinWriter wrote: »

I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.

Well I for one think trump is a nasty little snakeoil salesman sociopath and a buffoon, and one that appeals to well, idiots to be frank. I certainly consider anyone Irish spouting stuff like MAGA to be at best pig ignorant, at worst a thundering moron. I've travelled quite extensively in my life and had a few "foreigner" girlfriends and have no issue with people in general. However I have seen both at a remove and much more closely how European "multiculturalism" works and has worked for decades and it's pretty much the same song with the same lyrics everywhere and it's not a good song. Not least for those in society who differ the most from the locals. Pick any such nation in Europe, or indeed anywhere where this is in play and you find the same social schisms, the same extra social issues and the same trajectories over time.

There are many reasons for this and yep racism is indeed a major one and one that even with decades of hopes, education and time, money and effort hasn't exactly gotten better. If anything it's gotten worse. The current BLM marches should tell you something. Never mind the apparently increasing left/right divide towards the extreme.

Now some - and I see them as wonderfully optimistic though naive - believe that education and more of the same effort and time will make the difference. This time. In my humble it won't. I'm more practical and realistic. Sure it'll get softer around the edges(hopefully), but you will still find the same social hierarchies with the darkest of skin more clustered at the bottom and social strife.

The sad truth is this. If you don't believe in multiculturalism in Ireland, then shelve all your hopes, dreams and aspirations for a united Ireland. For ever.

There's over 600,000 people in NI who culturally identify as British. Ask yourself what happens to those in a United Ireland? Are you going to ethically cleanse them? Send them to re-education camps?

Though I come from a long line of old Republicans I don't particularly seek a united Ireland. There's a whole heap of reasons why, the scary fiscal cost for a start and that's before we get to those who don't want it. Indeed Ulster is a good example of how disparate cultures, even though they're both White, pretty much identical genetically and both essentially follow the same faith and yet...

I also have a pain in my arse with the pandering involved in trying to push this narrative and the hypocrisy, even the rejigging of history and the whitewashing of the problems of this politic that has become more of a faith than a practical philosophy. You can see that because the faithful have little but platitudes and a credo not based on logic, nor history, nor reality and to even question multiculturalism one is branded a heretic. Hell, look at the recent utter nonsense around a few bronze statues outside a Dublin hotel. Yeah, like we really need more of that ballsology. Urban centres in France, Germany, the UK, Sweden, you name it have already fallen to this busted flush of a social experiment. I quite simply don't want that for Ireland. Though sadly it has already started.

[Deleted User]

DublinWriter wrote: »

I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.

I live, for the most part, abroad. Many other posters here have similar lifestyles.

The distrust is not about foreigners. It's not that simple... Which is why this thread has managed to continue for so long..

The sad truth is this. If you don't believe in multiculturalism in Ireland, then shelve all your hopes, dreams and aspirations for a united Ireland. For ever.

Except that many Irish people, myself included, don't want an united Ireland. We don't want the baggage that would come with the North, nor do we consider those in the North as being representative of the Republic. There's quite a few people who have given up romantic nonsense, and are looking at the cold hard consequences of unification... and the price is far too high... with extremely dubious gains.

There's over 600,000 people in NI who culturally identify as British. Ask yourself what happens to those in a United Ireland? Are you going to ethically cleanse them? Send them to re-education camps?

That's a rather inflammatory suggestion, and based on what exactly? Go on... show me where in the last dozen pages anyone has suggested anything like that for migrants...

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

One of the things I love about Asia is that there is no real religious history, the way there is in the West or the M.East. The lack of organised religion with political agendas has given most of the countries a very honest approach towards religious integration. They had their religious wars, but learned early to remove religion from governments, or even any community authority. Japan is interesting because of the role the Emperor played by keeping religious attention focused on a single figure, that mostly kept out of people's lives.

I've long thought that monotheism brings a load of problems with it. Polytheism much less so and Eastern religions tend to be much more of the latter. The thing about Polytheism is that society is used to people having more than one god or goddess as a fave, so a new religion coming in is much less of a threat and basically just another god being added. You could see that in ancient Rome. Religions were even "fashionable" if a new fancy one was brought in by way of empire. Christianity was one such, but it got a bit out of hand and then became the official state religion and... Monotheism upsets that apple cart. The adherents believe in just one god and if you don't you're automatically "wrong", so this increases distrust and even anger.

Arthur Daley

DublinWriter wrote: »

Really? You feel Irish culture is under that much cultural attack? You can't even speak your native language and never made an effort to do so. Mass immigration? Do you even know the stats? You see a few black faces and you're freaking out like a member of EDL. For shame.

Minister for foreign affairs Simon Coveney decided to inform the Irish people that they would introduce half a million into the country over the next 20 years. No vote, it's a done deal.

Dyr

DublinWriter wrote: »

I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.

The sad truth is this. If you don't believe in multiculturalism in Ireland, then shelve all your hopes, dreams and aspirations for a united Ireland. For ever.

There's over 600,000 people in NI who culturally identify as British. Ask yourself what happens to those in a United Ireland? Are you going to ethically cleanse them? Send them to re-education camps?

LOL, if you want to make an argument against large scale immigration up then the Ulster platation is a great example

Not to worry though, after 400 years and the imposition of power sharing them uns are pretty much assimilated now, they've even stopped burning other denominations out of their houses and such like. Change the lyrics of the National Anthem, stick a new flag on the roof, let them have their walks in the summer and its game ball. As John Hume said, we've more that unites us than divides us. Dont think that can be said for other recently arrived groups.

DublinWriter wrote: »

I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.

Oh deary me.

iebamm2580

https://twitter.com/Ireunderworld/status/1292578458476912640

working well in balbriggan , house set on fire by anti social youths today.

https://twitter.com/DarraghOBrienTD/status/1292568083543068672
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS8SacA4QGI

Bonniedog

iebamm2580 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Ireunderworld/status/1292578458476912640

working well in balbriggan , house set on fire by anti social youths today.

https://twitter.com/DarraghOBrienTD/status/1292568083543068672
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS8SacA4QGI

Why anyone would be naive enough enough to think that these people will become a social asset - uniquely - to any country including the festering kips they crawl out is mind-boggling.

iebamm2580

main problem i see is housing too many immigrants in the one area, lost of young kids from different cultures around my area in Tipperary that integrate and play hurling and have no problems due to the fact that they dont just stick to there own, but like irish communities in hells kitchen in nyc which had its fair share of trouble due to the irish sticking to there own and not integrating we will see the same in our cities.

Mr. Karate

iebamm2580 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Ireunderworld/status/1292578458476912640

working well in balbriggan , house set on fire by anti social youths today.

https://twitter.com/DarraghOBrienTD/status/1292568083543068672
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS8SacA4QGI

Isn't cultural enrichment wonderful?

[Deleted User]

Bonniedog wrote: »

Why anyone would be naive enough enough to think that these people will become a social asset - uniquely - to any country including the festering kips they crawl out is mind-boggling.

Well... that's the thing. They would have come over as children, or teens, and "adapted" to living in western nations. You can't really look at children and say that they'll turn out bad simply because of where they come from.

The issue is the environmental conditions that they are being brought into... and we do have ourselves to blame for that.

We're seeing similar (although usually not quite so bad) from our own native youth population. When you remove the social constraints (Corporal punishment, the influence of the RCC, etc) and not replace them with anything, there are going to be consequences. Especially now that community awareness is dying, and people are generally strangers to each other, there's far less pressure on people to conform to set modes of behavior.

Sure, part of it comes down to their own parents, and their cultural backgrounds, but we have to be honest about the environment we are introducing young migrants (and our own youths) into... and take responsibility for those choices.

It's one of the reasons we should be severely limiting migration... we really need to get our own **** together and solve some of our own societal problems. Youth crime is an issue, even without adding migrants (or their children) to the mix. It's just going to get even worse, because now we're adding other tensions, and influences to the mix...

Rodney Bathgate

Bonniedog wrote: »

Why anyone would be naive enough enough to think that these people will become a social asset - uniquely - to any country including the festering kips they crawl out is mind-boggling.

Shut your mouth. These are our future doctors and engineers. They will fund our retirement.

Bonniedog

RTE have decided that the burning of a house in the middle of the day is not news.

TomTomTim

iebamm2580 wrote: »

main problem i see is housing too many immigrants in the one area, lost of young kids from different cultures around my area in Tipperary that integrate and play hurling and have no problems due to the fact that they dont just stick to there own, but like irish communities in hells kitchen in nyc which had its fair share of trouble due to the irish sticking to there own and not integrating we will see the same in our cities.

The likes of Jobstown will likely have problems with this stuff in the future. While they technically live among the Irish, the African community & the Irish community don't seem to do a whole lot of mixing, most groups keep to themselves. I'm honestly surprised that there hasn't been more problems so far.

Rodney Bathgate

TomTomTim wrote: »

The likes of Jobstown will likely have problems with this stuff in the future. While they technically live among the Irish, the African community & the Irish community don't seem to do a whole lot of mixing, most groups keep to themselves. I'm honestly surprised that there hasn't been more problems so far.

There probably has been but it gets covered up or just not reported. Remember the white lad getting beaten up that was recorded a few months back and shared on social media? The one we were told by the Gardai not to watch.

Cordell

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Shut your mouth. These are our future doctors and engineers. They will fund our retirement.

Let's not jump to conclusions, surely it was just a science or engineering experiment that went wrong.

briany

Multicultural societies are inherently fragile and we don't even have to look beyond our own shores to see this. After 400 years, there is still a fault line of a sort in Northern Ireland, and when the circumstances allow, this generates social upheaval and political deadlock.

There are some people - not all, but some - who view multiculturalism as an end. It is not an end, it is a means. I believe the idea of it, really, is to promote a tolerance of one another and different value systems we may have, until we can arrive at a common set of values. You cannot have lasting social cohesion without this. You can pretend everything is hunky dory when times are good, economically speaking, but when recessions happen, people really quickly revert to a 'to each their own' mentality and demonisation of the other, and this is exactly what we saw springing from 2008 - a renewed wave of nationalism and racism has swept Europe.

The worst thing that can be done when trying to make multicultural societies work is sticking your fingers in your ears when anyone talks about a problem with their implementation. You wouldn't do this with any other issue. You have to be allowed to talk in order to explain why A) Why your concerns are perhaps misdirected, or

What can be done to solve the problems. Silence, on the other hand, just allows things to fester.

Bonniedog

Social engineering does not work. Why should the people of this country or any other European country be extras in some experiment to "include" backward social cripples?

TomTomTim

Bonniedog wrote: »

Social engineering does not work. Why should the people of this country or any other European country be extras in some experiment to "include" backward social cripples?

Nothing that's forced ever works optimally; it may hold together for a short period of time but it will eventually implode, or at best greatly decline. These are basic truths that the righteous pseudo intellectuals love to ignore, because of course they know better, regardless of them being wrong regularly. Immigrants aren't the problem here, the politicians and multiculturalists who support this near unregulated madness are the one who deserve all our contempt.

Arthur Daley

briany wrote: »

but when recessions happen, people really quickly revert to a 'to each their own' mentality and demonisation of the other, and this is exactly what we saw springing from 2008 - a renewed wave of nationalism and racism has swept Europe.

There is really no hard evidence of this though is there.

The reward the Irish people have got from their establishment for the slog of 2008-2014 has been the transformation of their country.

Yet another boot in the teeth. Lots of disaffected, those with dissident views would look to leave, but to where? It seems to be everywhere people would want to go now.

Bonniedog

Arthur Daley wrote: »

There is really no hard evidence of this though is there.

The reward the Irish people have got from their establishment for the slog of 2008-2014 has been the transformation of their country.

Yet another boot in the teeth. Lots of disaffected, those with dissident views would look to leave, but to where? It seems to be everywhere people would want to go now.

People are afraid to speak out. Even the alleged nationalists of SF are part of the coalition to turn this country into a deracinated kip.

If they had any insight they would realise that if the last major plantation from our neighbours is still the source of inter-ethnic/sectarian divisions, then importing hundreds of thousands of people with even less claim is hardly going to work out any better.

Hence the need for all this New Irish bullcrap. Is Shane McGowan "New English?"

In the meantime we are bombarded with lectures on how fkn racist we all are, and life stories of the one in a hundred African who plays hurling so that most of us would sooner disown our mothers rather than question where all of this is going.

Rodney Bathgate

Good call. Some would have us believe they are more Irish than the real Irish.

Slowyourrole

TomTomTim wrote: »

The likes of Jobstown will likely have problems with this stuff in the future. While they technically live among the Irish, the African community & the Irish community don't seem to do a whole lot of mixing, most groups keep to themselves. I'm honestly surprised that there hasn't been more problems so far.

Interesting you picked Jobstown as an example. Jobstown has always been a major area of youth violence. From Carrigmore to Kiltalawn and down to Fortunestown lane has a good number of housing estate focused gangs that clash. Killinarden, Cherry Orchard, Kilmahuddrick. All have gangs that clash with each other too. I don't think adding in different colours and nationalities will change that much.

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

There probably has been but it gets covered up or just not reported. Remember the white lad getting beaten up that was recorded a few months back and shared on social media? The one we were told by the Gardai not to watch.

Why do you people use the phrase "cover up" when something isn't given major coverage? Not reporting something prominently is not a cover up. House fires and youth violence very rarely make national, or even local, news no matter who has been involved, unless there is some injury or death. Clashes with Gardaí rarely make the news. It's hard to tell on these threads when people are just using an incident to push their agenda or if they are genuinely ignorant of the problem with youth violence across the country. Do you actually think that this particular group of black is doing something unique? Do you think this is some imported culture? If anything, I'd say they're doing a fairly good job of fitting in with youths across the country, but in particular in Dublin estates.

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Good call. Some would have us believe they are more Irish than the real Irish.

What makes someone a "real Irish" to you? How many generations of purity do you require?

TomTomTim

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Interesting you picked Jobstown as an example. Jobstown has always been a major area of youth violence. From Carrigmore to Kiltalawn and down to Fortunestown lane has a good number of housing estate focused gangs that clash. Killinarden, Cherry Orchard, Kilmahuddrick. All have gangs that clash with each other too. I don't think adding in different colours and nationalities will change that much.

I don't disagree, but it will end up being racial division instead of just division among rival gangs of natives. I'd argue that one is worse than the other, as most gangs end up ceasing to exist, while racial division is something that's not so easily nipped in the bud, as I'm sure you'd agree. I've mentioned Jobstown solely due to it being something I've experienced myself; I pass through there regularly, and have friends that live there. I don't like to speak of areas I haven't been to, as it would be foolish.

Snickers Man

We've always had "multiculturalism" here, and there have always been fúckwits who have tried to control cultural orthodoxy with legislation, oppressive peer pressure and economic sanctions. None of them work!

Mankind is a social animal. We travel, we interact, we intermarry, we embrace the things we like about cultures we encounter; we reject or ridicule things we don't like. We had the Norse, the Normans, the English, the Scottish, the Palatines, the Huguenots, even a few Jews. It's nothing new.

Putting up arbitrary barriers against such practices only exacerbates tension.

Remember when King Edward III sent over his dim younger son the Duke of Clarence to stop his Anglo Norman colonists from becoming "more Irish than the Irish themselves"? Less than 200 years after they had come over in the 12th century, the Norman invaders in most of the country had assimilated, as all good immigrants eventually do.

They were speaking Irish. They were arbitrating disputes according to the Gaelic/Brehon judicial system rather than Anglo Norman common law. They were dressing like the Irish. The native Irish didn't wear pants--outlandish behaviour according to the chroniclers of the time, not least Froissart. They had different rules of inheritance. They had different table manners. They played different (and better) music. They rode horses bareback.

"No more of that!" said Prince Lionel, the Duke of Clarence. No more speaking Irish. No more going around wearing cloaks with the wind whistling unfettered through your nether regions. ("Put some pants on, man") No more of that squawky pipe music ("Diddly diddly dee bad; hey nonny nonny good").No more of that Brehon court nonsense.

And most importantly of all: no more intermarriage!!!! Yup. The civilised Anglo Normans were no longer allowed get it on with those hot Irish lassies!!!!

Seriously: how do you reckon that worked out?

There are other examples, from a lot nearer to our own day. "We must revive the Irish language!" declared the revolutionaries, once they took power. Compulsory Irish for all pupils from the moment the walked in the classroom door.

After 100 years of that what do we have? A generation of Europeans from more than 30 countries who don't have English as a mother tongue but can still speak it as well as most of us can, while generations of independent Irish people who after 10 years of instruction can just about memorise the national anthem, the Our Father, the Hail Mary and "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?" Pathetic.

Leave the immigrants to their own devices as long as they keep to our laws (as most of them will) and we'll do fine. Insist that Muslim butchers stock rashers and sausages, or that all Arabs have to become dog owners, or that all Czechs and Poles have to play hurling rather than soccer and you will breed resentment.

And sure, this is the perspective of a middle class urban person but intercommunal strife will always hit the working class harder if they let it fester.
Immigrants will be grand.

Fluppen

For me it's simple.

People of any nationality, race, creed, religion, sexual preference, gender id, whatever who come in with the intention to work, integrate (within reason), live lawfully and contribute positively to their community and our society are fine by me.

Tell me how

TomTomTim wrote: »

I don't disagree, but it will end up being racial division instead of just division among rival gangs of natives. I'd argue that one is worse than the other, as most gangs end up ceasing to exist, while racial division is something that's not so easily nipped in the bud, as I'm sure you'd agree. I've mentioned Jobstown solely due to it being something I've experienced myself; I pass through there regularly, and have friends that live there. I don't like to speak of areas I haven't been to, as it would be foolish.

Hell of a lot easier to stop racial division when people stop trying to stoke racial division.

Snickers Man

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Lebanon has gone from a stable wealthy nation to a sectarian hell hole in less than fifty years while Nigeria is a ethnic hodgepodge held together by the military for the benefit of a corrupt ruling class.

Lebanon may have been "wealthy" 50 years ago (we're talking 1970) but it was hardly stable. Nor was it particularly "equal". There were gross disparities in wealth.
And yes, it had a particularly nasty civil war starting in the 1970s, one that was exacerbated by the volatile region of which it was part. REfugees who had been displaced first from Palestine and more recently from Jordan upset the fragile balance of communities that existed at the time. But these movements came about on top of earlier resentments, bitter memories and indeed outright wars that had raged between the "indigenous" Lebanese for centuries.

And indeed, there were some terrible massacres of Christian civilians. Often of the families of prominent politicians and businessmen. But these were often carried out by other prominent politicians and businessmen with their own private armies, most of whom were their Christian rivals.

Wibbs

Snickers Man wrote: »

We've always had "multiculturalism" here,

Here we go again with rosy potted history that isn't. Actually we have never had modern "multiculturalism" here and what examples of past movements were not exactly too great for the locals, but more on that...

there have always been fúckwits who have tried to control cultural orthodoxy with legislation, oppressive peer pressure and economic sanctions. None of them work!

This we'd agree on.

Mankind is a social animal. We travel, we interact, we intermarry, we embrace the things we like about cultures we encounter; we reject or ridicule things we don't like.

You forgot those other human characteristics that are equally if not more in play, namely xenophobia and divisions along cultural and ethnic lines.

We had the Norse, the Normans, the English, the Scottish, the Palatines, the Huguenots, even a few Jews. It's nothing new.

Eh, with the exception of the Jews the rest were invaders and/or planters for an invading force and culture. And that didn't go too great for the locals in most cases and we're still living with the echoes of it today, including a smouldering war that raged for decades in the North of this island. Yeah, great recommendation for "multiculturalism" alright.

Putting up arbitrary barriers against such practices only exacerbates tension.

Ah yeah, let's drop all borders in some Star Trek future fantasy land. That's beyond idiotic and for all your talk of human nature it seems you only want to see the nice aspects.

Leave the immigrants to their own devices as long as they keep to our laws (as most of them will) and we'll do fine. Insist that Muslim butchers stock rashers and sausages, or that all Arabs have to become dog owners, or that all Czechs and Poles have to play hurling rather than soccer and you will breed resentment.

And sure, this is the perspective of a middle class urban person but intercommunal strife will always hit the working class harder if they let it fester.
Immigrants will be grand.

Yeah, again it's a pity you don't look to the examples of every single other European nation(and beyond) that has tried to run this social experiment for many decades or more. Sure the middle classes tend to avoid the guts of the problems, but the working class urbanites don't. Their existing issues are enlarged in every single case. Again find me one, just one "utopia" of "multiculturalism" in Europe where the darkest of skin aren't clustered near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder or where there aren't extra social issues and flashpoints around ethnic lines. Good luck with that, but shure it "will be grand". This time.

RandomName2

Slowyourrole wrote: »

What makes someone a "real Irish" to you? How many generations of purity do you require?

This is probably the most important and relevant question here. I mean it's totally loaded, but leaving that aside, it is actually difficult to answer.

Clearly if someone's family came to Ireland during Celtic migration, the Viking or Norman invasions, they are entirely Irish. If their family was part of the plantations they probably are entirely Irish, but many that belonged to families that were part of the Ulster plantations certainly don't feel Irish or want to be branded as Irish.

But realistically the question really is about the last 50 years, and, in particular, going forward.

If someone is here two months, gets married, and becomes Irish, are they as Irish as you or me? Legally, sure. If they could not name a single famous Irish person, know nothing of the history or culture of the island, they are still completely Irish, from a legal point of view.

Personally I don't see how I could ever become another nationality. If I marry someone in Myanmar and then say I am Mayanmarese, I'd feel like a hypocrite, even if it were legally true. Imagine if I started having opinions about Myanmar history, despite my family having had no part in any of that country's history. I'd expect to be laughed out of it. It would be cheeky at best for me to express a strong opinion, downright insulting at worst. Who would I be to speak about such matters?

We also offer citizenship to people provided they are simply here long enough (as long as they weren't in education or applying for asylum during that period). This is reasonable insofar that it is unfair to have people give many years, often the best years of their life, to building a life in Ireland, and yet not offer them the securities and privileges that come with citizenship. However the fact that we have this as part and parcel of our system makes it important to ensure that we are careful about who will be allowed to stay in this country (and thereby be in a position to avail of citizenship).

I think the most important criteria is that immigrants aren't too samey. One of the reasons why the immigrants during the plantations in Ulster are distinct from Irish is because they were part of only two groups (Scottish/English, Presbyterian/ Church of England respectively). Immigrants shouldn't be in a position to congregate in neighborhoods of 'their own', instead they should be integrated into Irish society. An emphasis on the 'multi' of multiculturalism would help prevent distinct pockets of particular cultures or ethnicities from forming.

This is less an issue with immigrants from EU countries because we are all part of the suprastate of the EU. One of the important aspects of this is the freedom of movement. Many migratory workers from the EU are precisely that: once the work that they have been doing dries up they return home as there's no barriers to them doing exactly that. Someone from a non-EU that has obtained permanent residency here is unlikely to ever permanently return to the country from which they've come, for both practical and financial reasons.