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An argument for upgrading the Waterford-Limerick railway(or at least part of it)

ohographite

I am unsure whether the Waterford-Limerick railway actually will reopen as the country reopens, but I am arguing that it should and that it should have a better service.

Clonmel is the largest town on the Waterford-Limerick line, and has a similar population to Sligo town.
Sligo has a far busier station than Clonmel does, so I think Clonmel would have a station possibly almost as busy if it had a better train service to Dublin(Sligo has a better service to Dublin)
If you ran 6 return trains daily from Waterford to Limerick, which departed Waterford just after an arrival from Dublin, then there would essentially be 6 trains from Dublin to Clonmel(and the 3 smaller towns on the Waterford-Limerick line)
I think more people would use the Waterford-Limerick line if this was introduced, because if you want to travel from Dublin to Clonmel(or any of the towns on the line) you need to take a train to Waterford or Limerick junction, and then wait around half an hour for the connecting train to leave(there were only 2 return services daily on the Waterford-Limerick line before the Lockdown).
I'm not sure what the travel demand is like from Waterford to Limerick themselves, but I'd say it's about as much as from Limerick to galway(galway is bigger, but Waterford is connected to Limerick by a worse road).
So if you combine the Waterford-Limerick potential travel demand with the demand from Dublin to Clonmel and the other towns on the Waterford-Limerick line, I'd say there is a case for 6 return services daily from Waterford to Limerick.

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ohographite

esposito wrote: »

Ok so what is the story with this service. Is it going to resume anytime soon?
Irish Rail need to stop neglecting this line.

There is a lot of potential for this line to grow as it links Waterford, Clonmel and Limerick. Also the population of South Tipperary could potentially have a much better connection to Dublin with a couple of more services added along with a Sunday service.

Exactly. Your post is essentially my original post in a nutshell.

In this article Irish rail confirm it will reopen, but gives no indication as to when:
https://kilkennynow.ie/suspended-county-kilkenny-rail-service-will-return-but-without-changes-to-timetable-irish-rail/

Their spokesperson says the timetable will remain what it was before the lockdown, giving the low numbers of passengers on it as the reason why.
I do not feel this is a reason to keep the timetable as it was before, as I remain positive that a decent timetable is important in encouraging more people to travel on the railway.
I do not think that any public transport timetable should need to attract lots of passengers before it can be improved or changed(this seems to be a rule enforced by the Irish rail spokesperson in the article).

They go on to say that there has been a different timetable in the past, but without significant uptake.
To be honest I don't know what the timetable was like in the past.
However, this previous timetable still may not have been useful for most of the railway's would-be passengers.
Or maybe the patronage was okay, but still insignificant by the spokesperson's standards.
In short, I do not see the past efforts to change the timetable as a reason to keep the service as it was in February 2020.

Is anyone here aware of what timetables the railway had in the past?

end of the road

3 trains a day i believe. morning afternoon and evening.
yes irish rail are just making excuses not to improve anything as per, par for the course.
we will wait and see if it actualy returns, i'm going to call it and say it won't, hopefully i will be proved incorrect.

91wx763

IE 222 wrote: »

It's a costly line to operate with the number of manned crossings and signalling ect.

Snipped.

Don't the crossing keepers get a "retainer" so they get the same money whether it's a train a day or a train an hour though ?

IE 222

Not sure, but all staff that work the line currently have Sunday's OFF. There might be something for them to work the odd Sunday but if it was to become a regular thing it would need to be reflected into their wages one way or another.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

Not sure, but all staff that work the line currently have Sunday's OFF. There might be something for them to work the odd Sunday but if it was to become a regular thing it would need to be reflected into their wages one way or another.

Sundays off means nothing in thier terms and conditions. The issue is can the current staff work Sundays within their maximun contracted hours. If they cannot you then have a very big cost issue by runnig a Sunday service.

One way or reducing costs would be to have both servies cross in Clonmel on a Sunday evening but then again I don't know if for exmaple getting all the staff out for a 2 hours shift makes much difference to the normal 4-5 hours it would typically take.

Direct Waterford-Galway would do reasonably well Sundays, forget about the Junction during college season.

Working class heroes

91wx763 wrote: »

Snipped.

Don't the crossing keepers get a "retainer" so they get the same money whether it's a train a day or a train an hour though ?

No.

Working class heroes

IE 222 wrote: »

Not sure, but all staff that work the line currently have Sunday's OFF. There might be something for them to work the odd Sunday but if it was to become a regular thing it would need to be reflected into their wages one way or another.

Not true. Gatekeeper work a 5 over 7 contract. The fact that there are currently no services on a Sunday is irrelevant. If Sunday services were to be introduced the only thing that would be changed is the rosters.
Further recruitments may also be required.

DoctorPan

I remember a figure ~4k floating around to open the branch on a Sunday for the RPSI May Tour a while back

IE 222

Working class heroes wrote: »

Not true. Gatekeeper work a 5 over 7 contract. The fact that there are currently no services on a Sunday is irrelevant. If Sunday services were to be introduced the only thing that would be changed is the rosters.
Further recruitments may also be required.

I wasn't really trying to get into the nitty gritty of contracts ect. The point I'm making is that Irish rail would have to staff the line for another day which will account to an extra cost.

Working class heroes

IE 222 wrote: »

I wasn't really trying to get into the nitty gritty of contracts ect. The point I'm making is that Irish rail would have to staff the line for another day which will account to an extra cost.

Indeed. But not necessarily the way you suggested. i.e. an individuals pay

julyjane

How much does it cost to automate a gate? I know of one automated gate on the line at MSD between Carrick and Kilsheelan which I'm assuming MSD paid for when they put the plant there. I doubt gatekeepers are sitting twiddling their thumbs when there's no train so they'd hardly be redundant as a result of automating the gates. Plenty of towns along the route have people who are frustrated sitting waiting for gates to reopen and would be glad to see the back of the train line.

L1011

Guts of a million a gate

Design process, planning process, may need power or enhanced power to site depending on what was already there. Actual gates and kit, CCTV install, connection to the CIE network for the CCTV.

Del.Monte

julyjane wrote: »

How much does it cost to automate a gate? I know of one automated gate on the line at MSD between Carrick and Kilsheelan which I'm assuming MSD paid for when they put the plant there. I doubt gatekeepers are sitting twiddling their thumbs when there's no train so they'd hardly be redundant as a result of automating the gates. Plenty of towns along the route have people who are frustrated sitting waiting for gates to reopen and would be glad to see the back of the train line.

What a load of tripe. There are so few trains on the line there is mighty little disruption to road traffic.

91wx763

julyjane wrote: »

Plenty of towns along the route have people who are frustrated sitting waiting for gates to reopen and would be glad to see the back of the train line.

The only "town" that might have suffered like that was Carrick and they used to station a trackman at the crossing there in the beet season so the signalman didn't have to keep walking up to close the gates, then back to pull off the signal/give out the staff and walk up to open the gates, a 5 plus minute closure. With the meagre service anyone needing that Cregg road would know the train times nowadays.

Isambard

91wx763 wrote: »

The only "town" that might have suffered like that was Carrick and they used to station a trackman at the crossing there in the beet season so the signalman didn't have to keep walking up to close the gates, then back to pull off the signal/give out the staff and walk up to open the gates, a 5 plus minute closure. With the meagre service anyone needing that Cregg road would know the train times nowadays.

there's a second crossing too not far from it which must have been quite frustrating. I think it had a crossing keeper but I'm guessing those gates would need to be closed too before the signals could be pulled off

julyjane

Carrick and Fiddown are 2 that come to mind, I don't disagree that it's not a problem and it can't be more than a few minutes of a wait but I'm just saying what other people have said.

91wx763

julyjane wrote: »

Carrick and Fiddown are 2 that come to mind, I don't disagree that it's not a problem and it can't be more than a few minutes of a wait but I'm just saying what other people have said.

Fiddown is just an open and close job, like I said Carrick is the complicated one.

man98

L1011 wrote: »

Guts of a million a gate

Design process, planning process, may need power or enhanced power to site depending on what was already there. Actual gates and kit, CCTV install, connection to the CIE network for the CCTV.

I have been told before that the going rate is €3 - 400k per crossing for Iarnród Éireann. I'm sure rates greatly differ depending on location (thinking Maynooth line would be more difficult and costly) and whether or not they have land to install a gate, but that is the estimate that was given for automating each crossing on a rural line a number of years back.

Jamie2k9

Sligo line for example saw 8 crossings upgraded for just under 5.8 million or about 720k if everything was equal.

Anyway without upgrading this line to CTC first automation of crossings isn't much good. I don't know but assuming the one already automated is controlled from one of the cabins on the route rather than at Mallow.

dowlingm

Looking at OpenRailwayMap there is quite a scattering of crossings marked - some being farm crossings but there are enough RAIU reports to show these are no formality. A place like Kilsheelan might be easier to re-route/re-grade the line to eliminate all the existing crossings with overpasses at the same time as construction of an N24 bypass or relief road... maybe in a country where the "NTA" and "NRA" were just "the Department of Transport"...

lostweekend3

Just my opinion but I don’t see the need to upgrade to CTC on this line. There are only 2/3 services in each direction. CTC would cost too much.

The most important thing is that the track is maintained to a high standard.
I think the manual level crossings and mechanical signalling is adequate for this line.

Let’s hope services resume very soon.

L1011

The operational cost of manual crossings and legacy signalling makes low capacity lines exceptionally expensive per train operation though. Staff aren't just paid per trip

91wx763

lostweekend3 wrote: »

Just my opinion but I don’t see the need to upgrade to CTC on this line. There are only 2/3 services in each direction. CTC would cost too much.

The most important thing is that the track is maintained to a high standard.
I think the manual level crossings and mechanical signalling is adequate for this line.

Let’s hope services resume very soon.

The track is fine it's just you can't get any consistent speed due to signal sighting.

TheBoyConor

River Suir wrote: »

I am never sure who benefits from the usual timetable on that service or who IE intends to use it because the pre COVID timetable benefitted no one who could commute to work or school.

Actually it’s a good argument to hand over the operation of that line to a new regional railways group who would be tasked with developing the line rather than managing its decline...

Irish Rail would rather send a few batches of 22000s off to Hammond Lane rather than let some other private operator get their hands on them.

goingnowhere

L1011 wrote: »

The operational cost of manual crossings and legacy signalling makes low capacity lines exceptionally expensive per train operation though. Staff aren't just paid per trip

This is the issue the fixed cost base is massive.

The capital investment to automate is significant but you get a 24 hour 7 day railway in return which worst case requires 2 staff/shift (less in practice as staff would control multiple routes from a single position).

There was an effort to upscale the service back in 2007 era when it went to 4 trains/day. Losses went up as the extra fares didn't cover the marginal costs of staff/fuel. The trains and infrastructure were free effectively so if you are not able to make a return in the marginal cost case you are wasting your time.

This was the era you could board a train at Limerick Junction with a single seat ride to Arklow (yes I kid not) and a change there for Dublin, there was a connecting train also at Waterford and served Rosslare Port as well.

You could do the reverse as well with an early morning Arklow Rosslare service which got you a connection to the boat train to Limerick Junc

The point here is, it was tried, it didn't work

IE 222

goingnowhere wrote: »

This is the issue the fixed cost base is massive.

The capital investment to automate is significant but you get a 24 hour 7 day railway in return which worst case requires 2 staff/shift (less in practice as staff would control multiple routes from a single position).

There was an effort to upscale the service back in 2007 era when it went to 4 trains/day. Losses went up as the extra fares didn't cover the marginal costs of staff/fuel. The trains and infrastructure were free effectively so if you are not able to make a return in the marginal cost case you are wasting your time.

This was the era you could board a train at Limerick Junction with a single seat ride to Arklow (yes I kid not) and a change there for Dublin, there was a connecting train also at Waterford and served Rosslare Port as well.

You could do the reverse as well with an early morning Arklow Rosslare service which got you a connection to the boat train to Limerick Junc

The point here is, it was tried, it didn't work

Don't recall it having 4 a day. Think 3 a day was introduced after reopening from the Cahir Viaduct derailment but the services were targeted towards connections into Dublin & Cork services.

The line needs an operational shift away from a connection service and move into a local service similar to Cork - Tralee and Galway - Limerick and gradually once a customer base has developed direct services to Dublin.

Timing departures to meet trains 30-40 miles away in the middle of nowhere for another 100 mile journey is never going to attract a customer base especially when its run inbetween peak hours.

Working class heroes

Services will be resuming on August 31st

end of the road

goingnowhere wrote: »

This is the issue the fixed cost base is massive.

The capital investment to automate is significant but you get a 24 hour 7 day railway in return which worst case requires 2 staff/shift (less in practice as staff would control multiple routes from a single position).

There was an effort to upscale the service back in 2007 era when it went to 4 trains/day. Losses went up as the extra fares didn't cover the marginal costs of staff/fuel. The trains and infrastructure were free effectively so if you are not able to make a return in the marginal cost case you are wasting your time.

This was the era you could board a train at Limerick Junction with a single seat ride to Arklow (yes I kid not) and a change there for Dublin, there was a connecting train also at Waterford and served Rosslare Port as well.

You could do the reverse as well with an early morning Arklow Rosslare service which got you a connection to the boat train to Limerick Junc

The point here is, it was tried, it didn't work

and presumably they did everything possible to promote services and let people know they could make such journeys?
or was it as i suspect, the usual where only a couple of individuals who happen to really be in the know on railway matters were the only ones to have known about it meaning that what they tried was as useless as banging one's head off the wall?

Working class heroes wrote: »

Services will be resuming on August 31st

well i have to admit that is a massive shock.
a good one mind but still a shock all the same.

TheBoyConor

I remember it being 4 services a day each way when i took to taking the train in 2008-2009-2010 and it was grand because you'd have the full day in Limerick if you got the early train up and the late one back. After that it went back to 3 services and it really wasn't as attractive for me for a day out anymore because you'd only have a few hours above in limerick. And the wait in limerick junction was more which made it even worse.

Del.Monte

goingnowhere wrote: »

This is the issue the fixed cost base is massive.

There was an effort to upscale the service back in 2007 era when it went to 4 trains/day. Losses went up as the extra fares didn't cover the marginal costs of staff/fuel. The trains and infrastructure were free effectively so if you are not able to make a return in the marginal cost case you are wasting your time.

This was the era you could board a train at Limerick Junction with a single seat ride to Arklow (yes I kid not) and a change there for Dublin, there was a connecting train also at Waterford and served Rosslare Port as well.

You could do the reverse as well with an early morning Arklow Rosslare service which got you a connection to the boat train to Limerick Junc

The point here is, it was tried, it didn't work

The point is something was tried in the usual half-assed way that CIE have traditionally gone about things. There was NO promotion of the increased services and I travelled from Enniscorthy on the first day that the service operated and intending passengers for the train were locked outside the station. Fortunately I had the signalman's mobile on my phone and was able to get him down to open the doors - after the the train had pulled in from Arklow. There's no promotion of existing services in the south east (or anywhere else) and now Covid-19 will sound the death knell of some lines with people being urged not to use public transport. The perfect storm.