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Random EV thoughts.....

Old diesel

The main motors forum has the motors chat thread for the little things one would like to say but might not justify a thread.

Thought it might be an idea for here re hybrids and EV stuff.....

To kick off - i wonder if a new measurement for EVs might be assuming a start trip at 100 percent......

A how much range do you get with a 15 minute stop.

With a 350 kw charging a Porsche Tayman might do very well with getting on for 400 miles...

A Leaf 62 not so good.

Obviously where a car can do more then 50 kw charging we would need both a 50 kw and a whatever the cars top rate is figure*.

*IF chargers are available

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MJohnston

whippet wrote: »

just wondering what are people's opinions are on public charging of PHEVs ... I took mine down the country for the weekend and was able to charge on the granny cable where I was staying. But I'll heading out west next week for 10 days and while I won't be doing any mad mileage I will be out and about a bit. I can generally get between 40-48km on EV off a full charge but i've never really considered charging at public charge points as i'm not sure it's worth it.

I do like being able to do urban / semi urban driving on EV and if I did take advantage of public charge points it would be nice. On the home charger it takes about 3h15m to get a full charge .. it's a G20 BMW 330e so has no fast charge capability.

is it worth it .. or is the prevailing sentiment of BEVs that PHEVs are persona non grata when it comes to public charging?

Presuming you’re talking about AC points only here.

It’s really a factor of how many other charging points are nearby (say within 10km).

If there are other public chargers nearby, then imo “first come first served” is a fair attitude. But I’d suggest leaving a note on your dash with a phone number and staying close by.

If there aren’t, then I think best etiquette would be to wait in the car while it charges.

Ultimately in both cases you have the ability to drive wherever you want on fossil fuel, but a charging point may be the only option for a BEV.

innrain

From next week you're going to pay about € 3.5/100km vs € 5-6/100km on petrol. The only problem is that you have to charge at least twice to achieve that (4h). Some people might be judgemental about PHEVs charging especially in locations where chargers are scarce. I don't think you'll have any issues at Decathlon but in Dingle...

whippet

So it’s still relevantly efficient to charge while on the move which is nice to know.

Since there is no free charging anymore is subscribe to the notion of first come first serve .. I’d only be in any spot for an hour or two max anyway so. It as if I’d be doing anything different to a BEV

innrain

Some BEVs would charge in one hour 22kWh in the same spot which would be some 100km range. I would charge about 50km per hour so maybe efficiency is not the right word. Now in Dublin paying for parking while charging would make the experience quite expensive. Probably if you have to park and it happens to be a charger there why not, but to seek a charger just for few kWh is to much hassle. But that's just my opinion. I have a BEV and use standard chargers only if they happen to be there where I stop. Otherwise FCPs to the max. 😊

unkel

Is there really much point in public charging a PHEV when the charging for slow charging comes in? Let's say you can charge 10kWh, that will cost €3 or so and will give you 50km range. Which you could have got with say 3l of petrol costing about €4. Very little saving (€1) for the hassle of plugging in. Obviously if this gives you (free) premium parking that would make a difference, but that's not the case in Dublin.

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

Is there really much point in public charging a PHEV when the charging for slow charging comes in? Let's say you can charge 10kWh, that will cost €3 or so and will give you 50km range.

The bigger issue IMO, is it will take him 3 hours to get that 10kWh :eek:.

PHEVs, limited to 3.7kW charging speed, IMO should only be charged at home, at work or at destination charge points, privately provided by hotels, shops etc.

This talk of only using public charge points to avail of free or priority parking is ridiculous too.

whippet

Kramer wrote: »

The bigger issue IMO, is it will take him 3 hours to get that 10kWh :eek:.

PHEVs, limited to 3.7kW charging speed, IMO should only be charged at home, at work or at destination charge points, privately provided by hotels, shops etc.

This talk of only using public charge points to avail of free or priority parking is ridiculous too.

When you are paying surely BEV or PHEV makes no difference ... isn’t the idea of EV to have as much miles covered by the entire fleet done without the use of fossil fuels?

Kramer

whippet wrote: »

When you are paying surely BEV or PHEV makes no difference

It does if you're in a BEV, you NEED a charge to continue your journey or get home &....
1. you're in the west, with a paucity of available chargers/charge points
2. there's a petrol engined BMW 3 series occupying the only available AC charge point, charging at 3kWs
3. he's not charging because he needs to charge or is saving money.

whippet wrote: »

... isn’t the idea of EV to have as much miles covered by the entire fleet done without the use of fossil fuels?

Well, yes. But a PHEV occupying an SCP for 3 hours, drawing a lowly 3.7kW, could prevent a 22kW AC capable BEV, both charging & driving almost 200km, in that same 3 hours.

It's about the scarcity of recharging resources IMO but, as I said, at a hotel overnight, or a B&B, or private shop provided charge point, knock yourself out.

whippet

Your assuming 3 hours .. what’s the problem with taking a 90 min charge while having a lunch and getting the next 20km or so on EV?

Kramer

whippet wrote: »

Your assuming 3 hours .. what’s the problem with taking a 90 min charge while having a lunch and getting the next 20km or so on EV?

It's about 50%

Kramer wrote: »

a PHEV occupying an SCP for 3 hours 90 minutes, drawing a lowly 3.7kW, could prevent a 22kW AC capable BEV, both charging & driving almost 200km 100km, in that same 3 hours 90 minutes.

No different from using a fast DC charger really, that's why there is an overstay fee after 45 minutes on those.
These will also be introduced for SCPs.

Kramer

whippet wrote: »

Your assuming 3 hours

I did quote unkel's 10kWh post too - hence 3 hours.

unkel wrote:

Let's say you can charge 10kWh, that will cost €3 or so and will give you 50km range.

whippet

I’m aware of the time to charge but I’m not really understanding the mentality that public charging is for BEV only ... If the electricity is being paid for it’s fair game really

unkel

Paid or not, it's fair game anyway, first come first served, you are right!

Not much point though taking out your cable, plugging in, going through the app thing or using a swipe card and at the end reverse this whole process, app again or card and removing your cable and storing it back into your car, just to save yourself €1

And that's for a full charge from empty to full, taking 3 hours. Your maximum possible saving. If you only plug in for one hour, you save just €0.30

KCross

And around and around we go!!

This BEV vs PHEV argument will never be won. The charge points are for whoever wants them based on the operators rules.

It will make a lot less sense to plugin a PHEV once AC charges are brought in alright though.

Busman Paddy Lasty

whippet wrote: »

I’m aware of the time to charge but I’m not really understanding the mentality that public charging is for BEV only ... If the electricity is being paid for it’s fair game really

PHEV drivers agree. BEV drivers disagree. C'est la vie.

Kramer

whippet wrote: »

I’m aware of the time to charge but I’m not really understanding the mentality that public charging is for BEV only ... If the electricity is being paid for it’s fair game really

It's not just a question of paying for the electricity though. There are a limited number of public charging points. Electricity is relatively inexpensive, charge points are quite expensive.
It's very unlikely a PHEV occupying one for 3 hours to travel just 40kms is a good use of the resource, especially if it's capable of charging a BEV, with twice the efficiency, at 6 times the rate (22kW).

Obviously, a PHEV can continue its journey with a flat battery while a BEV can't.

There are arguments for & against PHEVs using public charging infrastructure. Having an ICE (x2), a PHEV & BEV, I'm still undecided :pac:.

slave1

Talk about going round in circles, first come first served, it is and always will be the same, not happy about it is a futile waste of your time

ELM327

Thats the same reason I wont use chargebump or need to charge (or anything like that)
It's first come first served. If I'm there before you then you need to look elsewhere (if its a destination/slow charger), if its a fast charger I'll be either in the car or in the services and soon back in the car.

DrPhilG

ELM327 wrote: »

Thats the same reason I wont use chargebump or need to charge (or anything like that)
It's first come first served.

I'll never understand this attitude.

And that's not because of my (well known) promotion of needtocharge. Ps you won't use ChargeBump because its dead as a doornail.

Nobody is suggesting that by leaving a note or registering on Needtocharge that you are giving up the right to "first come first served".

It doesn't put you under any obligation to hand over access to the charger just because someone else needs it.

ELM327 wrote: »

If I'm there before you then you need to look elsewhere (if its a destination/slow charger)

So if I arrive at the slow charger you're using and you're plugged in, I shrug my shoulders and go elsewhere (if there is an alternative), and 30 seconds later you arrive and unplug.

Now wouldn't it have been considerate of you to either leave a note saying "back at **pm", a contact number, or a needtocharge disc? Of course it would have been considerate. And it would have taken very little effort and zero cost. So why not?

ELM327 wrote: »

if its a fast charger I'll be either in the car or in the services and soon back in the car.

Again, you'll soon be back in the car. But if I arrive and you've only just plugged in, I don't know that. You could be an arse with lots of money who is going to charge a Leaf to 100% and just pay the overstay fee. You know that you're not, and will be back soon, but I don't. Again, it takes a minor amount of effort to be helpful to that person who might arrive in dire straights needing a rapid charge.

ELM327

I've done this to death with you in various threads and I'm not going to do it again.
First come first served. Same as anything else. If you need the charger get there earlier.

unkel

The era of netiquette that worked well up until sometime in 2017 is well and truly over now we are progressing from innovator to early adapter stages. It's a pity, I liked having a chat with whoever else was at a fast charger and a bit of give and take and courtesy about who needed a charge most, but that's just the new reality.

DrPhilG

Good to see that altruism is alive and well around here...

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

Good to see that altruism is alive and well around here...

F00k altruism.
I'm charging because I was there first.

If you're there before me then you're charging, otherwise I am.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

The era of netiquette that worked well up until sometime in 2017 is well and truly over now we are progressing from innovator to early adapter stages. It's a pity, I liked having a chat with whoever else was at a fast charger and a bit of give and take and courtesy about who needed a charge most, but that's just the new reality.

Agree
Back in 2016 when I got my leaf it was an event to meet another EV.
That community is no longer there as there are so many EVs

DrPhilG

ELM327 wrote: »

F00k altruism.

And that sums up your position on this. Like you say, no point discussing further.

liamog

When I turn up at a charger and someone is either plugging in or sat in the car, I'll give them a friendly, "hey, do you know roughly how long you are going to be charging for". Similarly if someone pulls up whilst I'm sat in the car, I'll give them a quick "I'm going to about x minutes". It costs nothing to give someone heads up.

MJohnston

whippet wrote: »

I’m aware of the time to charge but I’m not really understanding the mentality that public charging is for BEV only ... If the electricity is being paid for it’s fair game really

You seemed to be asking about the etiquette in your original post, so that's why you're getting a lot of responses explaining what the prevailing wisdom is.

Otherwise of course it's "fair game", because it's a public charger and you're not breaking any laws by using it—I would have thought that was obvious!

But the difference between what's fair game and what's courteous is vast. If you didn't want to know that, I'm not sure what you're asking about tbh.

whippet

MJohnston wrote: »

You seemed to be asking about the etiquette in your original post, so that's why you're getting a lot of responses explaining what the prevailing wisdom is.

Otherwise of course it's "fair game", because it's a public charger and you're not breaking any laws by using it—I would have thought that was obvious!

But the difference between what's fair game and what's courteous is vast. If you didn't want to know that, I'm not sure what you're asking about tbh.

I didn’t ask about etiquette I asked about opinions .. and I’ve gotten some fairly interesting opinions ... but I suppose opinions are like that alright.

It’s seems that I’ll probably have to charge under the cloud of a seething BEV owner ... that I’m cool with ... but I’ve no problem talking to anyone and being civil about it ... but it’s clear that once it’s a public utility that is first come first serve and pay for what you use I’m doing nothing wrong.

As with all things in life you can’t control what others think

MJohnston

whippet wrote: »

I didn’t ask about etiquette I asked about opinions .. and I’ve gotten some fairly interesting opinions ... but I suppose opinions are like that alright.

It’s seems that I’ll probably have to charge under the cloud of a seething BEV owner ... that I’m cool with ... but I’ve no problem talking to anyone and being civil about it ... but it’s clear that once it’s a public utility that is first come first serve and pay for what you use I’m doing nothing wrong.

As with all things in life you can’t control what others think

I'm still puzzled as to what you were asking though.

Like obviously it's nothing else but 'first come, first served'—logistically, physically, legally! There's no mechanism to reserve a spot on a charger, there's no law against blocking a charger all day.

The only interesting or useful thing to discuss beyond that—ie. where the opinions are—is in etiquette.

In other words, "first come, first served" is how the system works, but it's not how people have to work.

Also, don't be surprised if you're asking for opinions and you get opinions!

Casati

As a non EV owner I struggle to understand why charging is so emotive - don’t 99% of owners just charge at home all the time except for the v odd long distance journey - Ie typically when they are on holidays and have time to spare? Are chargers actually clogged up with lots of PHEV’s?