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Child Item

Post primary return to schools roadmap

Random sample

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/7acad-reopening-our-post-primary-schools/#additional-guidelines-and-procedures

A thread to discuss issues.

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wirelessdude01

Random sample wrote: »

No mention here either. We did get asked about the LWR position though.

Wasn't mentioned to us either. Guessing the principal has someone in mind though as that is the way she works. Doesn't mention things until she has them arranged in the background and has the numbers for a vote of needed.

am_zarathustra

LWR is elected by staff but the aide is just someone the principal chooses and it's a paid position, well paid actually.

Our principal will probably choose someone spuriously. I was exam aide for years and from a previous agreement did the mocks and in house exams and got all our kids signed up to pay online with medical cards (otherwise there is so much confusion) then when the role became the calculated grade in June she sent an email saying it needed to be someone not teaching 6th year because she knew who she wanted.....needless to say she can deal with the mess of the in-house exams this year

finicio

Advertised in our school

I also hope that you are enjoying your Summer Holidays within the current circumstances.

Please find attached a letter from Minister Norma Foley.

I also want to draw your attention to Section 3. of Circular 0046/20:

3. Employing an aide to help with school reopening logistics
Schools may employ an aide (s) to assist with the physical and logistical arrangements necessary for school re-opening including movement of furniture, setting up hand sanitising stations, signage, training, engaging with parents and staff etc.
The daily rate payable is €143.32. The table below sets out the number of days applicable based on school size.
Enrolment No. of Days
<600 - 15
>600 - 20

LW2018

am_zarathustra wrote: »

LWR is elected by staff but the aide is just someone the principal chooses and it's a paid position, well paid actually.

Our principal will probably choose someone spuriously. I was exam aide for years and from a previous agreement did the mocks and in house exams and got all our kids signed up to pay online with medical cards (otherwise there is so much confusion) then when the role became the calculated grade in June she sent an email saying it needed to be someone not teaching 6th year because she knew who she wanted.....needless to say she can deal with the mess of the in-house exams this year

Foolish to say that about not teaching an LC class because I know that exact question was asked at a JMB online zoom meeting for Principals and they were told to approach the existing exam aide if they so wished.

Seems premature seeking names for the LWR before the aide but some management might Be thinking that the aide will put their name forward for the LWR role afterwards as the person who was involved in setting up the school for the return.

LW2018

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We got asked today. It’s a massive job if you ask me. Way beyond the 2hr timetable alleviation they are offering

And then need to “explore other options” if a timetable reduction cannot happen based on allocation / teachers available in the school to absorb the 2 hours... would be useful to be linked with a health & safety officer (particularly if this a post in schools) to have additional support. I think there’ll be a change in AP2 duties in schools this year to take into consideration reopening of schools

rainbowtrout

ClydeTallyBump wrote: »

Yes, my bad. I meant to write extended. I shouldn't be typing so late at night:)

To be honest I had assumed the government in their wisdom had said they were giving more time to the projects, but at the same time were pulling the dates for submission forward in case we shut down again. It would be like something they would do.

am_zarathustra

LW2018 wrote: »

Foolish to say that about not teaching an LC class because I know that exact question was asked at a JMB online zoom meeting for Principals and they were told to approach the existing exam aide if they so wished.

Seems premature seeking names for the LWR before the aide but some management might Be thinking that the aide will put their name forward for the LWR role afterwards as the person who was involved in setting up the school for the return.

Oh absolutely, if I wanted to make a fuss I definitely could have. Very silly to have it in writing like that given every other school just employed the exam aide, it was really put there as so much of the work of the exam aide is done during the year anyway.

The LWR is a mad job though, no one teaching any amount couldnt do it! Two hours to be the person everyone complains to

Dave0301

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

In what sense is money being thrown at the situation? What measure are being implemented with the money?

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Yeah, this is what I would like to know too. Do we know of the steps taken by any of these schools who have successfully reopened? Would be helpful because then we can demand similar. Would really strengthen our case if we had that kind of proof

Just in terms of money, extra healthcare staff (boarding school) have been hired, as well as cleaning staff. Face masks will be provided for all students, although it is up to them to wear them if they want (staff will social distance by 2m). Additional hand sanitisng locations have been added around the school and in all classrooms.

All classrooms have been audited by H&S team to see the max number allowed per room to include social distancing, as well as set up for blended learning; new webcams/mics etc. Extra facilities have been secured to allow for excess number to take part in blended learning/isolate if needed. Students to have their own devices to take part in fully led IT lessons, and a support scheme available if needed.

Timetable has been reworked, and all the boarding houses are putting further social distancing measures in place.

I still think it will be hugely disruptive.

Mardy Bum

LW2018 wrote: »

Has anybody applied to be the school aide for the reopening? Ours is starting Tuesday morning and then in everyday until the school reopens. Haven’t heard of anyone from school being interested in the role yet so unsure what management will be faced with if that situation arises.

Surely a construction/metalwork teacher would be the most sensible choice considering most of the jobs will involve adapting classrooms and modifying seats, desks etc.

deiseindublin

Aide sounds well paid, but I'm not sure I'd bother either.

143.32 x 20 days (max) less 55% in deductions etc still isn't a fortune.
€1289.88 / 20 = €64.50 per day, to lose all of August.

Hopefully whoever does it is happy to lose the hols, and maybe even on lower tax rate somehow.

ulsen

I know Special education teachers in primary are expected to substitute for class teachers if no other substitute can be found, just wondering what the expectation is at post primary level, is it written into the roadmap anywhere?. Also any recommendations for students who attend both a ASD class as well as mainstream classes- I couldn't see anything in the roadmap either.

Bananaleaf

ulsen wrote: »

I know Special education teachers in primary are expected to substitute for class teachers if no other substitute can be found, just wondering what the expectation is at post primary level, is it written into the roadmap anywhere?. Also any recommendations for students who attend both a ASD class as well as mainstream classes- I couldn't see anything in the roadmap either.

Forgive me if I have taken you up wrong and as a result i don't really answer your question

At post primary special education teachers are mainstream teachers who (might if you are lucky) have a secondary qualification in SEN.

Due to the structure of PP, (teachers not with the one class group all day) if a teacher is absent, their classes are covered by a sub (certified) or by S&S (uncertified) The teacher covering the absent staff member may or may not be an SEN teacher, but teachers at PP level sub at 40min intervals, depending on when they are not teaching their own classes themselves (ie: during their free periods)

If you are referring to SNAs then no, they are not to be left in a position where they have to take on the role of teacher, sub or otherwise and there is nothing in the roadmap to say that is to change.

Edited to add that there is nothing in the roadmap about ASD students who dip in and out of mainstream. I guess that will be locally arranged. We have an ASD unit in our place with students who come and go, so when I know what is going on there I will happily let you know

ulsen

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Forgive me if I have taken you up wrong and as a result i don't really answer your question

At post primary special education teachers are mainstream teachers who (might if you are lucky) have a secondary qualification in SEN.

Thanks Bananleaf, I might not have phrased the question clearly. I am a post primary teacher with additional qualifications in SEN (working in an ASD class-can't call them units anymore).

The roadmap for primary schools indicates that when a substitute teacher can't be found, Special Education Teachers in the school can be used to cover for the class teacher. I'm just wondering is the same expectation there for post primary schools- if substitute teachers can't be found, will teachers who usually provide learning support be expected to cover classes. I couldn't see anything in the roadmap for post primary.

Random sample

ulsen wrote: »

Thanks Bananleaf, I might not have phrased the question clearly. I am a post primary teacher with additional qualifications in SEN (working in an ASD class-can't call them units anymore).

The roadmap for primary schools indicates that when a substitute teacher can't be found, Special Education Teachers in the school can be used to cover for the class teacher. I'm just wondering is the same expectation there for post primary schools- if substitute teachers can't be found, will teachers who usually provide learning support be expected to cover classes. I couldn't see anything in the roadmap for post primary.

I don’t see how that could work in secondary. In primary, learning support teacher takes the kid out of their classgroup, so they would just stay with their class if the learning support teacher wasn’t available. In secondary, learning support is timetabled, so the student isn’t out of another class as such, so there would be nowhere for them to go if the learning support teacher wasn’t available, they’d need a sub themselves then.

Bananaleaf

ulsen wrote: »

Thanks Bananleaf, I might not have phrased the question clearly. I am a post primary teacher with additional qualifications in SEN (working in an ASD class-can't call them units anymore).

The roadmap for primary schools indicates that when a substitute teacher can't be found, Special Education Teachers in the school can be used to cover for the class teacher. I'm just wondering is the same expectation there for post primary schools- if substitute teachers can't be found, will teachers who usually provide learning support be expected to cover classes. I couldn't see anything in the roadmap for post primary.

Oh sorry, get you now. Yeah I know we are not supposed to say unit anymore. Bad habit, apologies. Same with support assistants, still keep calling them SNAs, I need to get my act together!

So, are you full time with the ASD class? If so, I would imagine that you are not able to be used.

With regard to learning support, I do a bit of this and yes I wonder will this be abused by management (to be fair to them, maybe out of necessity rather than malice)

Eg: I take John and Mary for literacy withdrawal on a Monday at 10am. But this Monday I see I'm down to cover Mr X's class at 10am because he is absent and there isn't anyone else to do it.

Eg 2: I team teach a class with another teacher on a Monday at 10am. But this Monday I see I'm down to cover Mr X's class at 10am because he is absent and there isn't anyone else to do it.

Personally speaking, this kind of stuff has happened to me a couple of times prior to Covid when we have been stuck for cover. Management will chance their arm with stuff like this. Again, as I said above, often not to take advantage but because they're up the proverbial creek themselves.

A nice workaround for this that I have figured out is if you email them acting dumb

"Good morning XX, I noticed that I'm down to cover Mr X at 10am this morning, but I usually take John and Mary for literacy at that time. Do you want me to send them back to their Irish class and take the cover instead? Thanks"

They're never going to openly agree, in writing, to cutting back on the SET hrs to fill gaps and if they do, you have it in writing.

Taking a LSup teacher away from their group to cover another is no different to taking a mainstream teacher out of their class to cover another in my view. Learning support hours are allocated to the school specifically for LSup and I'd imagine there would be war (and rightly so) if they started getting used for something else

am_zarathustra

I didn't see anything about this when I was reading through (though I could be wrong). In post primary because LS might be a scheduled class for say kids exempt from Irish to support them in literacy it isn't as easy to move a teacher to cover the whole of another teacher. A good few of our learning support teachers are also classroom teachers. We have an English and French teacher who would have exam classes in these for 11/13 hours and the rest would be TEFL like support for students for whom English is not their first language. Timetabling is a quagmire at PP so I can't see it being in a guideline.

Now thats not to say that if you are scheduled for LS with and Irish removal group second class on Monday and they can't find any cover that you wouldn't be asked. Whether you do or don't would be dependent on the situation I would say

am_zarathustra

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Oh sorry, get you now. Yeah I know we are not supposed to say unit anymore. Bad habit, apologies. Same with support assistants, still keep calling them SNAs, I need to get my act together!

So, are you full time with the ASD class? If so, I would imagine that you are not able to be used.

With regard to learning support, I do a bit of this and yes I wonder will this be abused by management (to be fair to them, maybe out of necessity rather than malice)

Eg: I take John and Mary for literacy withdrawal on a Monday at 10am. But this Monday I see I'm down to cover Mr X's class at 10am because he is absent and there isn't anyone else to do it.

Eg 2: I team teach a class with another teacher on a Monday at 10am. But this Monday I see I'm down to cover Mr X's class at 10am because he is absent and there isn't anyone else to do it.

Personally speaking, this kind of stuff has happened to me a couple of times prior to Covid when we have been stuck for cover. Management will chance their arm with stuff like this. Again, as I said above, often not to take advantage but because they're up the proverbial creek themselves.

A nice workaround for this that I have figured out is if you email them acting dumb

"Good morning XX, I noticed that I'm down to cover Mr X at 10am this morning, but I usually take John and Mary for literacy at that time. Do you want me to send them back to their Irish class and take the cover instead? Thanks"

They're never going to openly agree, in writing, to cutting back on the SET hrs to fill gaps and if they do, you have it in writing.

Taking a LSup teacher away from their group to cover another is no different to taking a mainstream teacher out of their class to cover another in my view. Learning support hours are allocated to the school specifically for LSup and I'd imagine there would be war (and rightly so) if they started getting used for something else

A good response to exactly what I was saying. You might be asked and it's a good idea to think about how you feel about that in advance. Or you could copy and paste the above response 😜 having to admit what your doing is always a good deterrent

I don't blame management in some ways but vunerable children do suffer. I've had LS hours and I have to be honest, I had one principal who was so supportive of SET he only would have done this as an absolute last resort and fought tooth and nail for every bit of extra support. Second principal used applaing language to describe kids with additional needs and would do whatever was the easiest in any situation.my response to be asked to cover for the former would be different from the latter.

maynooth_rules

Has anyone had it confirmed that they have lost their base room for next year? The thoughts of losing your base room, staff room being almost out of bounds, planning in classes that you are off possibly having to be done in your car, are making the thoughts of this whole school year utterly depressing. And that's without the thoughts of standing in front of classes of 30 unmasked adolescents.

Bananaleaf

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Has anyone had it confirmed that they have lost their base room for next year? The thoughts of losing your base room, staff room being almost out of bounds, planning in classes that you are off possibly having to be done in your car, are making the thoughts of this whole school year utterly depressing. And that's without the thoughts of standing in front of classes of 30 unmasked adolescents.

Haven't heard a thing yet, but from speaking to some principals, it seems to be the approach a lot are going to go for.

Losing my base room kind of irks me. One of the most quoted lines in relation to schools going back has been "sure there's not much transmission between kids anyway, so the whole social distancing thing isn't really necessary". Well then why do they need to be kept off the corridors?

I've big issues with the kids having base rooms. As a secondary school student, I went to a school where the students had base rooms and the teachers moved. And as a relatively unpopular kid (not one of the cool ones) those 3-5mins when there was no adult in the room were the worst times of the day

When a teacher pops out of the room for a minute or two, there's a bit of opportunistic messing that will go on. But when kids know that they can expect to be left to their own devices for 3-5mins every 40mins-1hr per day, they will come prepared. Believe me, I speak from experience!!

Leftwaffe

Im doing the aide in our school. Not much administration wise I'm being told, just organising classrooms, etc. Starting next week at some stage.

In regards to homework. I'm going completely paperless. We use the O365 platform so will get them to type it up or send photos via Teams. Keep them all in individual folders. Bit of work to get it started but 100% worth it when it starts flowing. Give them HW in bulk at beginning of week possibly. Should really start to nail these things down now!

am_zarathustra

I can't see any way around it for principals, the guidelines are very clear. I suppose maybe if you didn't have enough rooms and didn't want to sacrifice the practical rooms maybe you could make a case? Ive heard of a few where it definitely student base rooms but most teachers I know haven't been told yet

Bananaleaf

Out of interest .... how many of ye have been given a timetable for this coming year or even know what year groups and subjects you are teaching

am_zarathustra

I know what groups (though that can change) but no timetable. Haven't heard a peep from the principal in a month

mirrorwall14

Same I have the groups, no timetable. Having said that it may change and often does

am_zarathustra

I've actually done a crazy amount of planning and stated making resource folders for every student so I hope my classes stay the same. Or the new NQT in my subject will have an easy first few months

Random sample

We’re losing our classrooms. But haven’t been told how that’s going to work. We don’t have enough rooms for it.

I usually know what classes I’ll have, but there are often a few changes from June to August.

Principal is working on creating a timetable with all doubles at the minute, but again, hasn’t explained how that will work with subjects that normally get 1/3/5 periods in the week.

It would suit me to have less groups and have them for both of my subjects. At least then I could teach them a period of each when I have them instead of having all doubles.

LW2018

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Out of interest .... how many of ye have been given a timetable for this coming year or even know what year groups and subjects you are teaching

We’ve been given our timetables... were issued them in June. Unsure if there will be any reworking of it however. I do think it will stay the same as we’ve a huge amount of subjects offered and limited space. I do think it’s a huge amount of pressure on management - from the calculated grades new territory in June and now this and the complications it will bring due to different logistics etc with timeframe and buildings and so on. Practical approaches with staff opinions welcomed and explored will help to some extent.

Leftwaffe

Base classrooms gone in our place. Overflow rooms being organised as well. I worked long enough without a base classroom so won't be an issue but can see how it will be difficult for many.

The whole thing will test management to the last tbh. Some schools will be far better organised than others naturally. But the time frame to implement all this effectively is just far too slim.

ulsen

[QUOTE=Redordeadqwwer;114191943 Overflow rooms being organised as well. .[/QUOTE]

Interesting, will these have live streaming, who will supervise the students?

Mardy Bum

Every single thing a principal does will be pointless if everyone is maskless. The hundreds of hours organising timetables, routines, tables, rooms, etc. will be akin to the roads to no where.