Hamsterchops wrote: » And I dare say not many would disagree with you, but it's the inhabitants of Northern Ireland I'm talking about, the majority who are Ulster Scots/ British/ Northern Irish and who wish to be part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, and who wish to be cordial (but seperate) from this State. The population will either decide to stay within the United Kingdom, or they may vote to leave it? And if they vote to leave the UK what next? A 32 county Republic? Or . . . . .
Fionn1952 wrote: » As for your last point, yes. This is what we all agreed as part of the Good Friday Agreement. If the majority of the people of NI vote in favour of Unification, then (subject to a vote passing in Ireland), there will be a 32 county Irish Republic. Until then, it remains part of the United Kingdom. What exactly are you asking here? This has only been established for over 20 years....
Hamsterchops wrote: » An independent Northern Ireland, a half way house between being an integral part of the UK and being absorbed into the Republic of Ireland... I'm talking Crown Dependency, like the Isle of Man or the Channel islands, not part of the UK but still loosely connected to the Motherland Total & utter seperation from GB would be a BIG shock to the Unionist inhabitants would it not, maybe resulting in instability?
Fionn1952 wrote: » Unfortunately for the absolutely TINY minority of people who desire an independent NI (seriously, this isn't a new idea, it has never had any support beyond some minor fringe types), the UK, NI and Ireland are all signed up to an international agreement which gives two outcomes. Remaining part of the UK, or unifying with Ireland. Should you feel strongly about this idea of yours, I'll enjoy your efforts to pass the referenda required and secure the agreement of the British, Irish and NI governments, along with your work to ensure EU support in your plan to replace the Good Friday Agreement. I'm not saying it's impossible.....but pretty close. As a counterpoint, don't you think your elaborate plan would be a big shock to Republicans, who have been told they now have a legitimate and peaceful pathway to Unification, only to have it pulled out from under them to keep a minority (in the hypothetical event of a border poll passing) happy? Isn't it a bit unsettling for a large swathe of the population to be told their opinion matters less, and their vote isn't worth as much as another group?
Fionn1952 wrote: » What exactly are you asking here?
Hamsterchops wrote: » Oops, I spoke too soon
Hamsterchops wrote: » Oops, I spoke too soon The Provo apologist is back, and this is where this conversation stalls in the face of Extreme Irish Republicanism, which never gets us any further in the debate. At least with Fionn we can bat ideas around without glorifying "the armed struggle".
Hamsterchops wrote: » Zero progress with you matey!
BonnieSituation wrote: » I see you're back peddling your happy clappy nonsense?
Junkyard Tom wrote: » If people like you had your way the famine Queen's giant arse would still be parked in front of the Dail.
imme wrote: » That is Leinster House in the time of RDS use. According to Wikipedia the statue was in front of Leinster House until 1948, hard to believe.
Hamsterchops wrote: » First of all it's nice to bat these ideas back & forth with a rational Nationalist, not of the Extreme Provo variety (maybe they're on their summer hols) in Libya. As usual I'm being the devil's advocate, making suggestions and trying to see each others side of the equation. Always curious to see how this might pan out long term for both sides. I'm not from NI myself but you are which is good, so how do you seriously see things going in the future with a Seperation/Unification vote? and what (in practical terms) be be the benefits and deficits of joining the ROI and leaving the UK.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Look at the size of it too like.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Wasn't she given to the Aussies?
Hamsterchops wrote: » Quite a few NI car registrations around down here since the 12th, visiting here with their yellow plates, and their shiny slightly 'higher spec' cars. Alerted by our odd looking 'Yeild right of way' signs instead of their Give Way signs, Kilometers instead of miles, Garda cars instead of Police cars. Paying by Euro instead of GBP at the pumps, listening to Irish DJs on the radio talking about ROI issues, slightly different Covid regs, different government, different laws, different attitudes, different country. So, do they crave to be the same? Or do they look forward to driving up back home & across the border, back to Vodafone UK, back to Sainsburys, back on UK soil, paying by GBP, listening to NI issues on BBC NI, and back home to all the other yellow number plates ....... Or do they really want to be the same as us? Unify with us, become one with us drop the NHS, embrace the HSE, and have Irish as their No1 official language . or do they like to just visit here have some fun and then go back home to NI. Do we know for sure what they want?
maccored wrote: » .... or make a new country not like either of the other two. That never dawn on ye?
maccored wrote: » ...one thing that obviously hasnt changed since my own visits to the south when i was a kid, is the number of people walking about who dont seem to have the slightest iota about the people living at the top end of the country. Im sure though you know the orange culture well mind you.
Hamsterchops wrote: » Well yes, hence my reference to the Isle of Man & Channel islands, neither of which are in the UK. But that's why I keep saying things like "But what do they want" in relation to their future? "They" being the population living there in NI. It's all very well people us in the South demanding a United Ireland, but it remains to be seen if that's what they vote for. As regards your Orange comment, I look upon them a bit like the masons, a curiosity from the past, an old-fashioned custom from the past, not sure exactly what they do apart from marching once a year (on the Queen's highway) I think is the term. Officially they have two choices, stay in the UK or leave and become one with us here in the ROI, although 'nutters like me' sometimes suggest (in the case of a split vote) a halfway house, a stepping stone between the two, which doesn't go down too well with some
Hamsterchops wrote: » ...... which doesn't go down too well with some I know, the meer suggestion of a halfway house must be a hideous thought to Nationalists who demand total and utter seperation from GB ASAP, but at least it would be a compromise in the short term?
BonnieSituation wrote: » No more than a UI is hideous to Unionists "who demand total and utter seperation from" Ireland. Honestly, do you read your own guff?
Hamsterchops wrote: » Yes, I always read my own guff which makes a nice change from reading the demands of the two extremes. I could of course stop posting here altogether, leaving you guys to a "guff free' thread
Hamsterchops wrote: » ...... which doesn't go down too well with some I know, the meer suggestion of a halfway house must be a hideous thought to Nationalists who demand total and utter seperation from GB ASAP, but at least it would be a compromise in the short term? We in the South didn't leave the UK with a bang, it took from the 1920s right up until the 1970s for total and utter seperation from the rest of these islands. Incremental stages, stepping stones... What's wrong with that?
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Watch your tone British empire fanboy, unlike you I'm deeply troubled by violence and I have never glorified any armed struggle unlike you with your fetishisation of brutal British colonialism. You Unionists wet the bed over Republicans remembering their dead while building a bloody culture around a 300 year old battle, and the ghosts of hundreds of thousands of young men whose lives were wasted fighting in foreign fields for obscure reasons. If people like you had your way the famine Queen's giant arse would still be parked in front of the Dail.
jm08 wrote: » Yes. She was deported to Australia.
Fionn1952 wrote: » You're presenting it as a reasonable middle ground, when the reality is you're suggesting a position that no one wants or is happy with.
Hamsterchops wrote: » Fionn, as you can see this thread gets very heavy sometimes, so what's wrong a little 'shooting the breeze' and suggesting what if?
What if we wake up in the morning after the vote only to find that it's split close enough to 50/50 Pro UI or Pro UK...... imagine that for one minute, too close to call +/- a small margin of error. So in reality whoever has the most votes wins, but imagine the outcry from the other side!
This is where my crazy idea of a 'half way house' comes into play. It's just a thought, it's just an idea, it's not agreed by anybody but with myself so it means nothing in reality. Quite logical I would think, but in reality not acceptable to either side.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Just thinking what a UI would mean for such symbolism of those from a different tradition to 'the victors'? Would it mean the erasing of the Unionist or Royal tradition from history? I mean the statue was built in honour of Queen Victoria after her death. Plus there was more of a call to build one since she also visited Ireland in 1900. The visit while dividing nationalist sentiment, but also saw IRISH institutions wanting to demonstrate thier loyalty to the crown.
We then to forget during Victoria's reign that Dublin was one of those city's who were given the monkier - 'The Second City of the Empire'.If you look at this description below it shows how it was designed to style Victoria as an Irish Queen.
But as usual the Republican narrative took over (in just over a decade) drowning out any other viewpoints. So we had Joyce referring to her as the 'auld bitch'.
But both Cosgrave and De Valera did not want to appear to be a bigots so it was the reason why the statue was left there so long.
John Bruton was against moving the Statue to Australia in 1986 as it was made by an Irish artist and part of Irish Heritage.
It has got me thinking what would happen Unionist and Royal symbols if there is a UI. Would it be 'meet the new boss same as the old boss - as The Who said? Prime example would be Edward Carson
Would the Dub be brought 'home' to Dublin? His Dublin gaff was only a few doors down from Conradh na Gaeilge after all!
So would all this talk of inclusiveness be just lip service in a UI (statues taken down etc) or is the annual Orange parade in Donegal a sign that a UI could work and let people carry on traditions?
