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An argument for upgrading the Waterford-Limerick railway(or at least part of it)

ohographite

I am unsure whether the Waterford-Limerick railway actually will reopen as the country reopens, but I am arguing that it should and that it should have a better service.

Clonmel is the largest town on the Waterford-Limerick line, and has a similar population to Sligo town.
Sligo has a far busier station than Clonmel does, so I think Clonmel would have a station possibly almost as busy if it had a better train service to Dublin(Sligo has a better service to Dublin)
If you ran 6 return trains daily from Waterford to Limerick, which departed Waterford just after an arrival from Dublin, then there would essentially be 6 trains from Dublin to Clonmel(and the 3 smaller towns on the Waterford-Limerick line)
I think more people would use the Waterford-Limerick line if this was introduced, because if you want to travel from Dublin to Clonmel(or any of the towns on the line) you need to take a train to Waterford or Limerick junction, and then wait around half an hour for the connecting train to leave(there were only 2 return services daily on the Waterford-Limerick line before the Lockdown).
I'm not sure what the travel demand is like from Waterford to Limerick themselves, but I'd say it's about as much as from Limerick to galway(galway is bigger, but Waterford is connected to Limerick by a worse road).
So if you combine the Waterford-Limerick potential travel demand with the demand from Dublin to Clonmel and the other towns on the Waterford-Limerick line, I'd say there is a case for 6 return services daily from Waterford to Limerick.

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River Suir

ohographite wrote: »

I am unsure whether the Waterford-Limerick railway actually will reopen as the country reopens, but I am arguing that it should and that it should have a better service.

Clonmel is the largest town on the Waterford-Limerick line, and has a similar population to Sligo town.
Sligo has a far busier station than Clonmel does, but Sligo
If you ran 6 trains daily from Waterford to Limerick, which departed Waterford just after an arrival from Dublin, then there would essentially be 6 trains from Dublin to Clonmel(and the 3 smaller towns on the Waterford-Limerick line)

I am never sure who benefits from the usual timetable on that service or who IE intends to use it because the pre COVID timetable benefitted no one who could commute to work or school.

Actually it’s a good argument to hand over the operation of that line to a new regional railways group who would be tasked with developing the line rather than managing its decline...

ohographite

River Suir wrote: »

I am never sure who benefits from the usual timetable on that service or who IE intends to use it because the pre COVID timetable benefitted no one who could commute to work or school.

Actually it’s a good argument to hand over the operation of that line to a new regional railways group who would be tasked with developing the line rather than managing its decline...

Apologies, my post was unfinished, I just edited it.
You didn't say anything that particularly assumed my post was finished, however.
You didn't say anything I disagree with either.

MoashoaM

From Rosslare to Limerick there's great potential for a southern rail to flourish, but it needs strong leadership and a marketing campaign, so now we know it will fail.

91wx763

ohographite wrote: »

I am unsure whether the Waterford-Limerick railway actually will reopen as the country reopens, but I am arguing that it should and that it should have a better service.

Clonmel is the largest town on the Waterford-Limerick line, and has a similar population to Sligo town.
Sligo has a far busier station than Clonmel does, so I think Clonmel would have a station possibly almost as busy if it had a better train service to Dublin(Sligo has a better service to Dublin)
If you ran 6 return trains daily from Waterford to Limerick, which departed Waterford just after an arrival from Dublin, then there would essentially be 6 trains from Dublin to Clonmel(and the 3 smaller towns on the Waterford-Limerick line)
I think more people would use the Waterford-Limerick line if this was introduced, because if you want to travel from Dublin to Clonmel(or any of the towns on the line) you need to take a train to Waterford or Limerick junction, and then wait around half an hour for the connecting train to leave(there were only 2 return services daily on the Waterford-Limerick line before the Lockdown).
I'm not sure what the travel demand is like from Waterford to Limerick themselves, but I'd say it's about as much as from Limerick to galway(galway is bigger, but Waterford is connected to Limerick by a worse road).
So if you combine the Waterford-Limerick potential travel demand with the demand from Dublin to Clonmel and the other towns on the Waterford-Limerick line, I'd say there is a case for 6 return services daily from Waterford to Limerick.

The infrastructure to run more and/or faster trains does not exist. You can't have trains passing one another anywhere except Clonmel, Tipperary hasn't a second platform so isn't much use, the crossing loop at Cahir was removed in 1985, the crossing loop in Carrick On Suir was "temporarily" removed when the equipment was found to be worn out about 8 years ago. There is inadequate signal sighting for the numerous level crossings reducing even the basic mediocre line speed.

Del.Monte

91wx763 wrote: »

The infrastructure to run more and/or faster trains does not exist. You can't have trains passing one another anywhere except Clonmel, Tipperary hasn't a second platform so isn't much use, the crossing loop at Cahir was removed in 1985, the crossing loop in Carrick On Suir was "temporarily" removed when the equipment was found to be worn out about 8 years ago. There is inadequate signal sighting for the numerous level crossings reducing even the basic mediocre line speed.

So what are you saying - should CIE just be allowed to destroy the railway?

ohographite

91wx763 wrote: »

The infrastructure to run more and/or faster trains does not exist. You can't have trains passing one another anywhere except Clonmel, Tipperary hasn't a second platform so isn't much use, the crossing loop at Cahir was removed in 1985, the crossing loop in Carrick On Suir was "temporarily" removed when the equipment was found to be worn out about 8 years ago. There is inadequate signal sighting for the numerous level crossings reducing even the basic mediocre line speed.

The infrastructure can be put in place. I said that I think the line should have more frequent services, but I was already aware that changes were needed to support this frequency.
I was well aware that Clonmel was the only station which allowed stopping trains to pass each other, and I was aware that the line needs better visibility at level crossings to speed up trains.

kiliandrury

Of course it should be upgraded! Like you said, better frequency and, crucially, better connectivity to other services would vastly increase the line's potential.

Isambard

i doubt many on here will disagree. This line in particular has a much better case for retention than the others under threat.

sweet_trip

I drive waterford to limerick regularly. The road infrastrucutre is brutal.

It's heavily commuted as people from waterford, clonmel, cahir, carrick, tipp town, bansha, mooncoin, piltown, kilsheelan (the list goes on) go to work and study.
Also, the amount of lorries I see from rosslare heading to limerick and shannon on this road is high.

When I was a teenager all my friends would hop on the bus to Waterford every weekend. My tipp friends would all get the train. It would 100% be used with a decent time table.

It's absolutely should be utilised as a commuter line, always said it and posted about it here a couple times.

I know irish rail will never make this possible, and the cost to upgrade it would be massive. But I always look at countries in the Netherlands, Germany, Japan, Norway etc and see very similar lines that are thriving.

So sad to see wasted potential.

91wx763

Del.Monte wrote: »

So what are you saying - should CIE just be allowed to destroy the railway?

I'm saying they have already for the purpose of what the OP suggested.

ohographite

91wx763 wrote: »

I'm saying they have already for the purpose of what the OP suggested.

That is possible to undo, though.

kiliandrury

ohographite wrote: »

That is possible to undo, though.

...or even replace with new, better, alternatives !

IE 222

Services are targeted in the wrong direction. Run the service with Limerick based stock for a pre 8:30am arrival into Waterford. If the point work was installed at Limerick Jct a Dublin - Clonmel service would flourish imo. With some speed improvement works a running time of 2 hrs should be achievable.

Runninghard

ohographite wrote: »

I am unsure whether the Waterford-Limerick railway actually will reopen as the country reopens, but I am arguing that it should and that it should have a better service.

Clonmel is the largest town on the Waterford-Limerick line, and has a similar population to Sligo town.
Sligo has a far busier station than Clonmel does, so I think Clonmel would have a station possibly almost as busy if it had a better train service to Dublin(Sligo has a better service to Dublin)
If you ran 6 return trains daily from Waterford to Limerick, which departed Waterford just after an arrival from Dublin, then there would essentially be 6 trains from Dublin to Clonmel(and the 3 smaller towns on the Waterford-Limerick line)
I think more people would use the Waterford-Limerick line if this was introduced, because if you want to travel from Dublin to Clonmel(or any of the towns on the line) you need to take a train to Waterford or Limerick junction, and then wait around half an hour for the connecting train to leave(there were only 2 return services daily on the Waterford-Limerick line before the Lockdown).
I'm not sure what the travel demand is like from Waterford to Limerick themselves, but I'd say it's about as much as from Limerick to galway(galway is bigger, but Waterford is connected to Limerick by a worse road).
So if you combine the Waterford-Limerick potential travel demand with the demand from Dublin to Clonmel and the other towns on the Waterford-Limerick line, I'd say there is a case for 6 return services daily from Waterford to Limerick.

Having drive from Galway to Waterford and back on numerous occasions, I agree wholeheartedly with this post (notwithstanding the infrastructural issues - all of which can be overcome). Unfortunately there does not appear to be the appetite to make it happen - as opposed to what occurred with the WRC, which despite its detractors has been a success. I often wonder why there are no real Community Rail Partnerships as in the UK where there are over 70 and where local community groups work with the Train Companies to develop their local rail lines and keep them open. Something like West-on-Track might work on this line either.

dowlingm

I am sympathetic to the notion of commuter services from Carlow/Kilkenny and Clonmel/Carrick on Suir into Waterford, but the trains arrive where the people/jobs largely are not. A look at Google Maps shows how the city sprawled south while the bit of growth on the north bank is constrained by topography and county boundaries. The station move further east will help a bit, but not as much as being near WIT etc would be.

kiliandrury

dowlingm wrote: »

I am sympathetic to the notion of commuter services from Carlow/Kilkenny and Clonmel/Carrick on Suir into Waterford, but the trains arrive where the people/jobs largely are not. A look at Google Maps shows how the city sprawled south while the bit of growth on the north bank is constrained by topography and county boundaries. The station move further east will help a bit, but not as much as being near WIT etc would be.

What are bus connections like to Plunkett station? Would a good local bus service, focused on the station as a hub help solve this problem to a certain degree...?

Del.Monte

kiliandrury wrote: »

What are bus connections like to Plunkett station? Would a good local bus service, focused on the station as a hub help solve this problem to a certain degree...?

A big fat zero as far as I know - the bus depot is in a separate location on the other side of the river - although it was briefly located at the station.

PS Nobody calls it Plunkett station - the renaming of stations in 1966 was a Todd Andrews wet dream.

Lord Glentoran

Del.Monte wrote: »

A big fat zero as far as I know - the bus depot is in a separate location on the other side of the river - although it was briefly located at the station.

PS Nobody calls it Plunkett station - the renaming of stations in 1966 was a Todd Andrews wet dream.

That ole joined up thinking just seems to elude CIE and the NTA.

91wx763

Del.Monte wrote: »

A big fat zero as far as I know - the bus depot is in a separate location on the other side of the river - although it was briefly located at the station.

PS Nobody calls it Plunkett station - the renaming of stations in 1966 was a Todd Andrews wet dream.

The JJ Kavanagh Ferrybank city service passes outside the station and although it did stop in the predeccessor Kenneallys days the road layout on Dock road now doesn't allow a bus to stop.

PS will we call it Waterford "NORTH" just for you JD

:D:D

Losty Dublin

91wx763 wrote: »

PS will we call it Waterford "NORTH" just for you JD :D:D

Go all GNR here and let's call it South Granny.

kiliandrury

Del.Monte wrote: »

A big fat zero as far as I know - the bus depot is in a separate location on the other side of the river - although it was briefly located at the station.

PS Nobody calls it Plunkett station - the renaming of stations in 1966 was a Todd Andrews wet dream.

Wow. I looked up the Waterford local bus services and it looks like not a single one of bus eireann's local routes even cross the river! Even for Ireland that's bad.... I know Waterford's not the only city/ town with this problem.

It just baffles me how local bus services have been allowed to remain so un-integrated from rail services, it feels like such a simple and common sense change that would have an immediate positive impact.

kiliandrury

.... I also read about the North Quays development plan, which does include a bus link to the new station (and a cycle/ bus only bridge) - is this actually going to happen?

ohographite

Runninghard wrote: »

Having drive from Galway to Waterford and back on numerous occasions, I agree wholeheartedly with this post (notwithstanding the infrastructural issues - all of which can be overcome). Unfortunately there does not appear to be the appetite to make it happen - as opposed to what occurred with the WRC, which despite its detractors has been a success. I often wonder why there are no real Community Rail Partnerships as in the UK where there are over 70 and where local community groups work with the Train Companies to develop their local rail lines and keep them open. Something like West-on-Track might work on this line either.

Fortunately for the Waterford-Limerick line,(and all railways in the south east) a campaign group known as South East on Track, which I am part of, has recently formed.

Our demands are to improve the service on all railways which run to the southeast of Ireland (this includes the Waterford-Limerick line as well as the Dublin-Waterford and Dublin-Rosslare lines) and to reopen the Waterford to Rosslare line.

This is a link to their website if anyone wants to check it out:

https://southeastontrack.com/our-mission

ohographite

I think a low-hanging fruit to improve services on this line (and hence increase passenger numbers) would be to increase the frequency to 6 trains daily only between Waterford and Clonmel(to start with), still with 2 daily continuing to Limerick Junction.
Trains could be ran from Waterford to Clonmel/Limerick Jn just after a train arrives from Dublin, or trains from Dublin to Waterford could even continue to Clonmel, either of which would give Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir a decent train servce to Dublin and some towns in between.
This would be the first phase in upgrading the line.

I call this low-hanging fruit because it wouldn't require additional passing loops between Waterford and Limerick Junction, nor would it require double-tracking Limerick Junction to Limerick Colbert.*
My original post suggested running 6 trains daily from Waterford to Limerick Colbert, and that would require the two investments mentioned above, as well as more rolling stock dedicated to the line and probably a few other things(I'm not an expert on railway engineering).

The suggestion I made in my original post could be a second phase to the upgrade of the line. I would however prefer both phases to happen together.

*I am aware that the first phase still requires additional rolling stock, better signalling and a second platform in Waterford, but all of these would also be needed in the second phase, as well as all the things I mentioned above.

julyjane

A Sunday service would increase use. We travel to Galway regularly and hate the road but not having the option to come or go on a Sunday means we have to drive to the junction and it's out of the car we want to get.

People going for weekends away and people returning for work/college on a Sunday in both did would get great use out of the line but here we are in 2020 with Sunday still being a day of rest.

Del.Monte

julyjane wrote: »

A Sunday service would increase use. We travel to Galway regularly and hate the road but not having the option to come or go on a Sunday means we have to drive to the junction and it's out of the car we want to get.

People going for weekends away and people returning for work/college on a Sunday in both did would get great use out of the line but here we are in 2020 with Sunday still being a day of rest.

The lack of a Sunday service on the Limerick Junction/Waterford route for decades has been a major factor in its decline. Weekend travel is the busiest time on other routes - why should places like Cahir, Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir not enjoy the same level of service.

dowlingm

Del.Monte wrote: »

The lack of a Sunday service on the Limerick Junction/Waterford route for decades has been a major factor in its decline. Weekend travel is the busiest time on other routes - why should places like Cahir, Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir not enjoy the same level of service.

it’s not like people in Waterford, Kilkenny or Tipperary have any interest in GAA. They just want to stay home and read the Sindo on a Sunday. None of them go to college in Waterford or Limerick either - and if they do they would rather bounce along the N24 on a bus

Geog1234

In terms of bus linkages to the current railway station in Waterford there is a bus bay immediately outside the station and marked as such.It has been used by replacement coaches at times of line closures.

At the time of the suspension of Waterford - Rosslare rail services the NTA were certainly aware of the potential to have the PSO buses to/from Rosslare serve the station. At that time there was an afternoon train on Limerick Jct - Waterford.

There would be no point in all Waterford/Rosslare buses serving the station but when they coincide with a train arrival or departure (window of half an hour or so) they could and should serve the station. But there is evidently no will to provide an user-friendly integrated offering.

As far as I'm concerned the NTA, Bus Éireann, IÉ have collectively failed to engage with users and it is my experience if one politely presents a proposal or idea which doesn't tally with the official "agenda" it is either ignored, not replied to, paid lip service to but ultimately nothing is done.

esposito

Ok so what is the story with this service. Is it going to resume anytime soon?
Irish Rail need to stop neglecting this line.

There is a lot of potential for this line to grow as it links Waterford, Clonmel and Limerick. Also the population of South Tipperary could potentially have a much better connection to Dublin with a couple of more services added along with a Sunday service.

IE 222

esposito wrote: »

Ok so what is the story with this service. Is it going to resume anytime soon?
Irish Rail need to stop neglecting this line.

There is a lot of potential for this line to grow as it links Waterford, Clonmel and Limerick. Also the population of South Tipperary could potentially have a much better connection to Dublin with a couple of more services added along with a Sunday service.

I reckon end of August we'll see services return.

It's not really up to Irish Rail to expand services on the line in fairness It's the NTA who decide on service levels. To be fair Irish Rail receive a very limited budget each year and they can't really justify spending millions on such lines at the expense of core main lines. It's a costly line to operate with the number of manned crossings and signalling ect.

The state and the developers of the new centre should be looking at investing in this line.

The new station been located in the shopping centre is going to deliver a lot of foot fall into the centre and offices, which will also attract larger companies meaning better jobs and €. The developers should be covering the cost of building the station and bridge as they'll be the main beneficiaries of this hub and get the state to pump the €50/60 million into the local rail network.

This project has the potential to transform the area in terms of jobs also. Large companies will love the fact the offices will have a transport hub on their doorstep. Id imagine demand will grow for Kilkenny/Carlow as well which will increase services to Dublin as well. Personally I'd even be mooting for the New Ross line to be reopened using the South Wexford Line as well.