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Is Ireland different?

[Deleted User]

Is Ireland different in how politics, the government, the media, and unions interact?

Anyone watching the COVIDA 19 discussions, would be struck by how COVID is being used to 'get at' various government departments via issues that long preceded COVID 19, fair enough maybe, SF trying to shoehorn a point on to a discussion about COVID 19 in the hopes of landing a blow on the government they are in opposition, but it comes across as very weak during a pandemic.

The unions are doing it via endless calls for more details and when that is answered calls for even more details.

Does any other national broadcaster have an Industry and Employment Correspondent? and if they do, is repeating calls from some union or other for the government to do something headline news?

One example of trying to tack another issue on to COVID 19 would be the two different pay scale in teaching that came about after the downturn, an issue that long preceded COVID19.

The navel gazing is unbelivibal sometimes, possibly to do with being a small small wealthy country with little real issues?

So are we unique?

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[Deleted User]

The news stations I watch outside of RTE would be the BBC and a bit of Al Jazeera and sky news and yes there is a difference.

blanch152

Working class heroes wrote: »

This post has been bugging me and I’m surprised no one has picked up on it.

I had a look and as far as I can see the maximum pension a teacher can receive is €625 per week. This is based on a finishing Salary of €65000 per annum with 40 years service. Now this is an excellent pension, the €700 state’s above as been “typical “ is far from correct.

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0041_2019.pdf

You need to look more closely at the circulars.

Teachers recruited before 2011 with an honours degree and a H.Dip (pretty much standard) finish up with a final salary of €70,446. That equates to a weekly pension of €675.

That isn't the end of the story, though. Primary and Secondary Education are among the last bastions of seniority getting promotion in the public sector, and most teachers finish up with at least a "B" post, which would push the pension over €700 a week.

Working class heroes

Re teachers pensions. Thanks guys. I genuinely didn’t realise the pensions where that good. Wasn’t trying to question anyone just wanted to be sure in my own head.

Brussels Sprout

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're kinda unique in that we don't give a **** about teachers and nurses and tell that their 'vocation' should be paryment enough.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So, then - why is it that the attitudes to nurses and teachers is that they are over-paid whingers?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I was also refering to attirudes towards personnel - nurses as well as teachers when I said people "don't give a ****" and some of the responces here kind of prove my point.

My friend is a nurse and this constant association with teachers drives her bananas.

As she says herself: "The teachers are always being lumped in with us and guards. Thing is they don't work shift. They don't work weekends. They get ridiculous holidays. It's not generally a dangerous job. It's nothing like being a nurse or a guard and yet they manage to somehow piggy back on the difficulties of our professions and lump themselves in with us in the eyes of the public".

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

My friend is a nurse and this constant association with teachers drives her bananas.

As she says herself: "The teachers are always being lumped in with us and guards. Thing is they don't work shift. They don't work weekends. They get ridiculous holidays. It's not generally a dangerous job. It's nothing like being a nurse or a guard and yet they manage to somehow piggy back on the difficulties of our professions and lump themselves in with us in the eyes of the public".

I wasn't "lumping" anyone in with anything else - I was (as the last post denotes) using them as two seperate examples of professions that are undervalued by the public.

[Deleted User]

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

My friend is a nurse and this constant association with teachers drives her bananas.

As she says herself: "The teachers are always being lumped in with us and guards. Thing is they don't work shift. They don't work weekends. They get ridiculous holidays. It's not generally a dangerous job. It's nothing like being a nurse or a guard and yet they manage to somehow piggy back on the difficulties of our professions and lump themselves in with us in the eyes of the public".

That is another very interesting point the dominance of those professions along with the public services in general in public discourses about jobs, finance culture, for example, the budget some commentator discussing tax band will reference the Gaurd married to the nurse.

Its as if there is an Ireland of two different cultures.

Bit cynical

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The people have spoken, three quarters of them don't want SF and their murdering/criminal legacy.

And yes Ireland is different we have a system which is proving resistant to polarisation which happened on either side of us (looks at UK & US)

The vote in the last election was roughly evenly divided between FF, FG and SF. SF did particularly well on first preferences with the other parties relying on transfers. The people, it seems, don't mind a bit of murdering/criminal legacy provided it is in moderation.

Charles Babbage

Geuze wrote: »

Pension = half = 34,529, or 664 per week

Surely the pension is 664- Old age pension. .

Geuze

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Surely the pension is 664- Old age pension. .

A typical teacher retiring now was hired before April 1995.

PS hired pre April 95 do not pay full-rate PRSI, and so do not qualify for a State Pension.

joe40

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

My friend is a nurse and this constant association with teachers drives her bananas.

As she says herself: "The teachers are always being lumped in with us and guards. Thing is they don't work shift. They don't work weekends. They get ridiculous holidays. It's not generally a dangerous job. It's nothing like being a nurse or a guard and yet they manage to somehow piggy back on the difficulties of our professions and lump themselves in with us in the eyes of the public".

People make career choices. Your friend chose to be a nurse and not a teacher. Why the problem now?

Charles Babbage

Geuze wrote: »

A typical teacher retiring now was hired before April 1995.

PS hired pre April 95 do not pay full-rate PRSI, and so do not qualify for a State Pension.

Indeed. But the useful part of the pension, for the purposes of comparing with other workers, is the bit above the state pension. This particular formula has always given the impression of PS pensions being better than there are.

Belfast

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The people have spoken, three quarters of them don't want SF and their murdering/criminal legacy.

And yes Ireland is different we have a system which is proving resistant to polarisation which happened on either side of us (looks at UK & US)

SF may havvea violent past but so have FF and FG when they were epected in 1920s too.
FF and FG have no problem with SF being in power in NI , but do not want them in power in the republic.

Indeed Ireland at least does not go for the anti-immirgat and anti lgbt that seems to be a vote winner in the US.

The irish army has a repuation as peace keepers unlike the armed forces in the US.

Belfast

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the civil service and their unions have more power than the government in some departments.

Its why the HSE will never be fixed regardless of who is minister for health or how much money we throw at it.

Journalists in RTE are as far as I know all member of the national union of jounrnusts so tend to be left leaning and pro union.

RTE are now working on small budgets to not much money to spend giving a more consider view on news stories.

eg.
Bertie Ahern earns more that US president. shock news
They failed to point out at the time that the US president did not have a pay rise since 1969.
President pay went up in the year 2001 when Bush Jr became president.
1789 $25,000 $709,000
1873 $50,000 $1,080,000
1909 $75,000 $2,140,000
1949 $100,000 $1,050,000
1969 $200,000 $1,370,000
2001 $400,000 $567,000
2018 $400,000 $400,000
Trump gets no pay.
the story was lazy or just a story to embarrass to the government.

Belfast

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland's not on this list. Look at this list - official EU 2016 teachers pay comparisons.

https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-policies/eurydice/sites/eurydice/files/teacher_and_school_head_salaries_2016_17.pdf

Page 13. Ireland very near the top on all indices for teachers pay. And very few countries get 2 / 3 months summer break like Ireland, where teachers can effectively work a summer job.

That's why there is so much hoo ha around Denmark's schools being open - their summer holidays are June 28th - Aug 2nd.

Similarly nurses are very well paid here, and our social welfare and pensions are very generous. Who isn't well paid generally speaking are people working for SMEs here.

But let's not let facts get in the way of the narrative.

Teachers can be elected to the Dail and still be be clased as ful time teachers for pension purposes.
Like Enda kenny and Michael D. Higgins and many other in the Dail.

Why are there so many teachers and principals in the 33rd Dáil?
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/why-are-there-so-many-teachers-and-principals-in-the-33rd-d%C3%A1il-1.4192628

Belfast

Girly Gal wrote: »

Teachers and lecturers are overpaid considering the hours and holidays they have. Also since the lockdown I know of teachers who didn't do a whole lot leading up to the summer holidays, just a few hours each week, yet when this is all over we'll hear a constant call for a pay rise for teachers because of how hard they worked during the lockdown. I know there are exceptions with some teachers who genuinely went above and beyond, but, the majority took it easy.

What teachers are paid is only part of the picture.
Teachers in other countries might be paid less but have lower cost of living.
A teacher in Ireland might earn more but would have VHI where as a teacher in the UK does not need VHI.
When I worked in IT in Dublin , I look at wages for similar jobs in the UK and they were paid less that I was.

List of European countries by average wage
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

One of the problem teacher had for years was find a permanent post. She got job as a drug rep for better money and a company car plus vhi etc.
When my sister graduated in the late 1980s she could only get work to cover on maternity leave and much of her class left the country or the profession.
One of her friends got a job in America in a public school and each class had a armed police man to protect the teachers from the students.
She was called in to the principles off and was told that her student marks in maths were too low.
she said that the test were correctly maked. She was told to remak the etest to meet the grade poit agrage or they would lose state funding and she would be layed off.
She left and got a job in a private cathoic schools where she did not need to fake the test results.

tabby aspreme

I wouldn't think very many people consider nurses to be overpaid, it's the clerical grades and the management in the HSE, who in many cases are overpaid, and carry no responsibility for their mistakes.

Belfast

tabby aspreme wrote: »

I wouldn't think very many people consider nurses to be overpaid, it's the clerical grades and the management in the HSE, who in many cases are overpaid, and carry no responsibility for their mistakes.

Nurses are in a position where they can work any where in the world.
I had a student nurse who worked part time to help care for my late mother who had parkinsonism disease.
She said that when she graduates she will head for the gulf where the pay is better a promotion is faster and most of her class were planning to leave the country.
Nurses now can get jobs as drug reps that pay better and have shorter hours and company cars.
We seem to train a lot of nurse in Ireland and a lot of the leave the country or the profession and then we need to import nurses from overseas to replace them.

For the record there are a lot of teachers and nurses in my family.
I an not one of either.

Clare Kat

tabby aspreme wrote: »

I wouldn't think very many people consider nurses to be overpaid, it's the clerical grades and the management in the HSE, who in many cases are overpaid, and carry no responsibility for their mistakes.

Well said, and treating it as “a vocation” as opposed to a profession contributes to this mindset. Nurses are far better paid and much more respected in America, Australia, UAE etc. The pay is crap here and they can’t do half the things that nurses do in other countries, no autonomy whatsoever. Doctor’s handmaidens from what I’ve observed.

RandomViewer

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The people have spoken, three quarters of them don't want SF and their murdering/criminal legacy.

And yes Ireland is different we have a system which is proving resistant to polarisation which happened on either side of us (looks at UK & US)

FG killed more with HEP C and cervical cancer scandals, they also are heavily involved in criminality

Belfast

Clare Kat wrote: »

Well said, and treating it as “a vocation” as opposed to a profession contributes to this mindset. Nurses are far better paid and much more respected in America, Australia, UAE etc. The pay is crap here and they can’t do half the things that nurses do in other countries, no autonomy whatsoever. Doctor’s handmaidens from what I’ve observed.

Well said.

Belfast

RandomViewer wrote: »

FG killed more with HEP C and cervical cancer scandals, they also are heavily involved in criminality

cervical cancer I did not understand.
The Uk had the same problem years before we had it and we did not seem to learn for the mistakes the NHS made.

Organ retention scandal Ireland.
I did not get that one either.
Retaining organ was standard practice in hospital here and else where for over 200 years and was not illegal.
I was told in biology class in secondary school that pituitary glands were taken routinely to make human growth hormone.
I was told this my drugs reps I know in the 1980s also.
It was a open secret that was known by many at the time. It only became scandal where it got in to the media.
I remember see documentaries on smoking and surgeons showing bin full of lungs retained after surgery removed for cancer patients on TV.
I never heard any one in the media saying the had been normal procedure for longer than anyone could remember.