Man with broke phone wrote: » Hi, I'm doing some thinking out loud and I was reading about some teachers working very hard during the lockdown and some not so much and I thought to myself (out loud) should we have a pay scale based on performance. Now I'm just a lay person so the nitty gritty would need to be kneaded out. Say for example a math teacher on grade 1 taught and motivated 80 per cent of her students to get an honour in junior cert maths surely she deserves to go up to grade 2. If she did it for 5 years in a row grade 3 would be given. This would seriously empty out the rot in the education system. I had too many teachers just turning up and getting paid one who read geography from the book at a monotone barely audible level then crucified anybody who looked like falling asleep. For a whole year. Nobody in the whole class got above a C in the junior cert in his subject. Why should he get the same money as somebody who is there as long as them and still lighting a fire under the students. In this world and systems Robin Wiliams oh captain my captain gets the same pay and conditions as Ferris Buellers teacher. What's the story here?
Bassfish wrote: » In such a system absolutely nobody would be willing to teach in poorer areas or teach kids with additional needs. The 'motivation' of the teacher, in reality is probably a minor factor in determining how well a student will do in a particular subject, especially one like maths. Some children are born with a natural flair, others aren't. Many kids have motivated parents who take an interest in their kids' education, others don't, some have parents who can afford grinds, others don't. Two identical teachers, one teaching in a deprived area and one teaching in a well to do area will have students getting vastly different results. The grades of a student is a very poor measure of a teacher's job performance. In saying that I'm all for finding some way of rewarding and incentivising teachers who go the extra mile for the kids.
Man with broke phone wrote: » That's abit unfair on some of the miracle work teachers do in deprived areas. Some teachers can make the experience magical and get all parties on board, parents, children brothers sisters and the local community surely they should have a bigger slice of the pie than johnny phone it in who turns up and reads the book.
Bassfish wrote: » Totally agree there's amazing teachers in deprived areas but that misses the point. Under a system of teachers being graded by their students' results, that Johnny phone it in teacher working in Dalkey will be classed as better than that miracle worker teacher working in Darndale because so many socio-economic factors are going to have a role in determining grades.
Man with broke phone wrote: » They could always test the students before and after the teacher works their magic. If they can balance the whole financial system of the world so that the price of grain in Bolivia can be steady with the price of bananas alaska surely they can come up with an idea where a few kids can leave a darndale school with the ability to go to college and to work for KPMG in a well paid position. How many are told to do a course in childcare and take a barely minimum wage job after they leave school if they are girls and get a trade off some Dodgey fecker that wont even register their apprenticeship if they are boys?
am_zarathustra wrote: » If this crisis has taught us anything it's that we should be very respectful of those working in childcare as our economy is very dependent on them. For some students a child care course is their dream, for some it's science, for some fintech, for other music etc. I'm in an area very like Darndale and we would have kids aiming for medicine and some delighted they already have their acceptance into their desired PLC. For most they will be the first in their family to continue their education after secondary, for a number they will be the first to sit and pass a leaving cert. As stated above the most important thing is they have a path, they have a desire for something for themselves in the future, they can see a future. Generational change is hard. I would agree with everyone above. Another thing to note is schools are very teamwork based. It's important we all basically get along in a staffroom, I've been in toxic staffrooms and I'd leave a school over it no problem. A round of promotions nearly caused mayhem in our school and we started in a good position interpersonally. Even if I was to benefit from such a system I wouldn't want the atmosphere it would bring. We are worryingly low on teachers as in anyway
Man with broke phone wrote: » Yeah maybe college professors but should somebody teaching geography and music in st random in north dublin get as much money as the teacher busting a gut in jobstown putting a high percentage of his kids into decent college courses. I think a system exists that breeds toxicity towards anybody that is seen as a try hard. I was allowed do music for my junior cert. I couldn't play an instrument, I couldn't afford one I was never going to have a career in it but they needed to fill up places and had a music class, nobody even asked me why I was studying it, they were just happy a science class or tech drawing had less applicants, I learned that a song exists called ripples in the rock pool and got a high score in the junior cert. I picked music because it was an easy honour. Nobody gives a fiddlers. Teacher I had, gave a bit of time to the few people with guitars or whatever but we had half a class that went there a few times a week to ensure she got paid and nothing else. I had a few alcoholic teachers that came to school for a rest. One fella who was a famous spoofed with a brother who was a doctor in my local area that spent every class talking about how great he was and never once looked at a book. Probably on tablets or drugs looking back now. For every hard working teacher there was at least one waster getting the same pay and probably holding children back by making sure other people didnt go above and beyond until they got extra pay for it. For me as a hard working guy I'd be fuming looking at them every morning in the canteen. Talk about toxic work environment. Would anybody know of a way we could get the good workers more pay and the bad workers a bit less.
Man with broke phone wrote: » Most unfunded education system in Europe or the one that spends the most on pensions and wages on people who should be fired and has nothing left for crayons and blackboards. I had a vice principal who used to go for pints at lunch and come back and send kids home for random reasons. One fella from a bad upbringing used to get sent home once a week for not having his hair combed, wrong shoes, smelling of smoke, any random reason. Ended up hanging himself in a local field a few years later. Probably could have intervened or helped him but instead that fella vice principal up to retirement. Another teacher who drank with him every day worked very hard even though he was half cut and was a huge influence on my life probably drank because the other fella was earning more than him all them years even though he did all the work.
Benicetomonty wrote: » Unfortunately you cannot apply your bad experiences to teaching in 2020 and make coherent points. If it's any consolation to you, a teacher nowawdays who continuously comes to work drunk will be removed from the teaching register. Of that, there can be no doubt.
rainbowtrout wrote: » You would like to introduce a system based on your personal experience only. You're also projecting reasons for drinking without any evidence whatsoever. You also seem to believe that this is what schools are like now. They are vastly different from the picture you paint. Really, your whole post can be summed up by 'teachers are overpaid and should be fired'.
am_zarathustra wrote: » more conversation by management with individual teachers around areas of improvement.
Man with broke phone wrote: » I believe in a system that rewards hard workers. I believe in a system that punishes terrible workers. I believe most industries have ways to deal with this but teaching doesnt. I have two children in primary school a year apart. One teacher was online every day working hard the other one sent a chapter of a book to do twice over the lockdown. Surely one should be well paid and the other should be walking around with the shovel of sand to throw over the sick kids vomit.
Mardy Bum wrote: » You do realise a hard working teacher does not necessarily mean successful learning for a student?
Man with broke phone wrote: » Yeah maybe college professors but should somebody teaching geography and music in st random in north dublin get as much money as the teacher busting a gut in jobstown putting a high percentage of his kids into decent college courses. I think a system exists that breeds toxicity towards anybody that is seen as a try hard. I was allowed do music for my junior cert. I couldn't play an instrument, I couldn't afford one I was never going to have a career in it but they needed to fill up places and had a music class, nobody even asked me why I was studying it, they were just happy a science class or tech drawing had less applicants, I learned that a song exists called ripples in the rock pool and got a high score in the junior cert. I picked music because it was an easy honour. Nobody gives a fiddlers. Teacher I had, gave a bit of time to the few people with guitars or whatever but we had half a class that went there a few times a week to ensure she got paid and nothing else.
rainbowtrout wrote: » You have a serious chip on your shoulder. The great thing about schools is that when you go in and choose your subjects in first year, it is a free choice, you're not forced to pick a subject because of your background. You chose music by your own admission. The music course is designed (like all junior cert subjects) to be accessible to those who have never studied it before. You don't have to play a musical instrument to choose music for junior cert, nor do you have to play a musical instrument for the junior cert exam. Singing is allowed. By your logic, those who have never cooked before should not study home economics, or those who have no experience working with a variety of tools should not study woodwork or metalwork for junior cert. You also don't have to study a subject so you can have a career in it. Sometimes you study a subject and you develop a huge interest in that area and continue in your studies at LC, college etc, and sometimes you decide that after JC you have enough of that and want to concentrate on something else. That is the beauty of choice. I have yet to forge a career around my knowledge of ox-bow lakes, but I don't feel hard done by because I studied Geography for Junior Cert.
