Fionn1952 wrote: » The neck on you to talk about level headedness, fairness and integrity only to follow up with a post referring to Irish history and culture as a bunch of chieftains raping each others wives.... Also, once more you demonstrate your total lack of reading comprehension in your desperate rush to take offense and blame SF for everything. You'll perhaps try reading it again and note where I said I had no real issue with Orangeism, where I said that I can see potential positive in marching bands, and you'll also note at no point did I describe your culture as rotten. I'd also highlight that I stated that those, 'isolated incidents' form a significant part of my lasting memory, so of course they're historic events. That was followed up by saying that you should accept at least PARTIAL responsibility for it....and you complain that I'm blaming it all on one side? The issue with your, 'name something recent' is that you jump around on what you consider connected to the 12th/Orangeism depending on how it suits your argument. You were previously provided with examples, which you dismissed as, 'isolated incidents'. You tried to claim that incidents at the 11th night bonfires were nothing to do with Orangeism and the 12th, and also tried to claim that issues within bands were nothing to do with Orangeism despite those bands being hired by and marching with the OO.....
downcow wrote: » Interesting letter leaked from Stormont today will put a lie to the posters on here blaming unionists for lack of coordination between ni and Roi I have been laughed at for claiming all along that Roi are cruising on with little consultation or interest in coordination around covid on the island. This letter will prove it. Can’t wait to see your spin. You delivered covid to ni through your reckless non coordination and it seems it’s continuing.
downcow wrote: » I simply responded to you claiming the twelfth cost £14,000,000 to police. I you make rediculous posts people will react
jh79 wrote: » Have you a link? Couldn't find anything on google.
downcow wrote: » Here is more of the problem. You guys cannot approach anything with a level head and a little fairness and integrity. Firstly most of your post refers to another time. I have been asking for a long time for issues during past year, before covid tbf, and you keep going away back to drumcree and twadell If you want to examine those historic events I am happy to. Are you honestly saying one side caused either of those issues? It takes two to tango and they were both certainly a dance between two communities in conflict. Or do you think otherwise? Then you come up with isolated nonsense. I could do this also and list stuff that happened at your events. You choose one and try me? You then try to suggest that these isolated incidents mean that a culture that has at least 3 million attending street festivals every year is rotten because a person urinates where they should not. You still don’t understand that most people have neither the interest or power to normalise a 300 year old organisation. I know no 300 year old org that is normal in today’s measure. Maybe you’ll tell me one? This is what you don’t get. The OO are the organisers of a minority of parades and those they do organise, they are a small minority of those who attend and are not the attraction for the spectators. The oo is archaic and I don’t believe will modernise enough to survive long term (but will certainly be around into next century and beyond). So don’t constrain my culture to OO. And be honest with me. Do you accept that the Ira/sf set out to use opposition to my culture as a new campaign to replace the armed campaign? And if you don’t, why do you think republican leaders are recorded saying such privately?
Fionn1952 wrote: » Your argument that the cost of policing the 12th has fallen from £14m to £100k.....because you feel it in your waters is much more ridiculous Downcow. At least we can state with confidence that at least the £14m figure was accurate at SOME point. The most recent numbers I can lay my hands on with a very rudimentary search put the Twadell protest alone at £22m of policing costs. I suppose you'll claim that expense is nothing to do with the 12th though.... I have no fundamental issue with Orangeism and the parades that go with it (beyond finding it a bit odd), and I can see potential for positive from the marching band scene, but when people's lasting memories are things like Drumcree, Twadell, circling in front of chapels playing songs with obvious sectarian intent (despite people like you insisting they were just covering the Beach Boys purely coincidentally), or urinating on a chapel.....perhaps the responsibility for normalising the Orange and increasing broader acceptance at least partially lies on your side of the fence.
The_Fitz wrote: » That's conspiracy theory stuff right there. Obviously the 12th costs more than £100,000. Cleaning costs (2018) - £21k - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45187951 Fire service costs (2015) - £78k - https://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/07/06/news/how-much-do-twelfth-bonfires-cost-the-fire-service--592445/ Thats your 100k alone give or take without taking into consideration policing and grants etc. You have derailed the topic of debate (and I have fallen for it).
FrancieBrady wrote: » I posted the differences before when you went at this rubbish. And I also pointed out that Sunningdale's failure had nothing to do with SF. But blame them anyway.. sure they are Irish.
BonnieSituation wrote: » Pedantic like our resident Unionist who flops over the "foreign country" to the South? You're posts are getting more and more ridiculous.
downcow wrote: » I appreciate you acknowledging the difficulties of the past, but do you accept that my community would be very nervous because what happened in the past, where the Unionist population was more or less wiped out in your country? If you are dedicated to preventing that from happening again then that is certainly a positive
downcow wrote: » I do not have any figures Fitz. I am not sure they actually exist as normally any freedom of information questions related to this issue are asked by Republicans and therefore couched in a way to ensure they get as big a figure as possible. I can only speak anecdotally. I attend the 12th, and the only place I see police officers are isolated ones and twos managing traffic issues. To the best of my knowledge there is no real disorder issues anywhere related to the 12th which the police would have to manage (unless you have some figures to hand). Historically there were a few isolated places that had issues, but I think we all know that they were not issues related to the 12th, but rather were issues of community division and the 12th was used as a vehicle for Republicans to stoke up more division. I cannot think of anywhere there are currently issues. Therefore there is no real need for any significant policing costs. I would quite like to do a freedom of information question around policing of the 12th. It's costs and number of arrests, and the numbers that the police estimate were in attendance. I think you would find the figures would be very shocking for anybody who has listened to the propaganda. I'll have a guess. In the region of half a million people in attendance, less than one dozen arrests, and I wouldn't know where to start with costs, but if it is greater than £100,000 i.e. 20p for everyone in attendance, then I would be surprised
The_Fitz wrote: » I'm not a neutral though. Have never said I'm a neutral. I'm a Republican. A Republican who sees the benefit of making this island work for everyone. I believe that the way forward is spelling out that everyone is welcome in a new Ireland, and more importantly, making them feel welcome. I don't want what has happened in the past, to happen in the future. The only way to achieve this is dialogue.
The_Fitz wrote: » I can assure you I don't have any sort of lack of understanding. Obviously, I didn't know the figure at the top of my head. I googled it and took it from the first story (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/policing-north-s-parades-cost-psni-almost-14m-1.1288030) - just noticed it is 2005, so very out of date. I would be very surprised if the money put into both occasions are in any way comparable. Do you have the figures at hand?
downcow wrote: » No comment on the actual question fitz? It was a serious question. I have had to accept that my views are often prejudiced, but then I am not presenting myself as some sort of neutral.
The_Fitz wrote: » I can see you're not able for any sort of debate on this issue. Which is fine. i hope others might look forward to the option of progression so that we can all share this island as equals.
downcow wrote: » There we are now Fitz. jm08 is hardly an orangeman and he has just said that even taking his wildly inflated figures, that your figure was seven times his crazy figure. Is there any learning and that for you Fitz, that you are so ridiculously misrepresenting my culture?
downcow wrote: » This is the sort of comment that is simply ridiculous. It shows a serious lack of understanding of the situation in Northern Ireland. I actually thought you were some sort of moderate nationalist that unionists could work with, but when I see you claiming that policing the 12th costs £14 million, I realise that you have a very prejudiced view. But sure why let the facts get in the way of a good story
jm08 wrote: » The marching season cost £22 million in 2002 and has decreased since then to £7 million (between April & Aug 2015). From what I can see the 12th costs just under £2million now and the rest of the Marching Season about 4 or 5 million.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » You should be very grateful every time a nationalist represents the non-country, no-anthem, no-flag, former unionist/protestant ethno-state.
jm08 wrote: » Why would you need devolution. That would be like the North East of England being devolved from the rest of England. All the money thrown the West Belfast Festival to keep nationals happy, we then need thrown at orangefest to keep the new minority happy? Isn't that Festival quite successful and a tourist attraction? I don't see funding that would be a problem bearing in mind that these type of festivals are held all over Ireland and are good for tourism. Since the breakup of the former USSR, UEFA/FIFA would prefer if there was just one team from the UK. With regard the soccer team, I'd suggest that the system pre-partition is used - i.e., keep the IFA team, based in Belfast and abolish the FAI as they are certainly not up to the task. Would you go for that DC? Already there in our written Constitution, so not a problem. edit: Just as an aside - the Irish Government also used to fund the Ulster-Scots project which was run by John Laird (now deceased). There were a few quesetion marks about his expenses coming up and down to Dublin where it turned out that he used a taxi from Belfast to Dublin to avoid being laughed at because he was wearing a kilt. And the Irish Government put up with that ****. Also, bearing in mind, the Irish Government developed an interpretive centre at the Battle of the Boyne so that unionists could fully enjoy their ancient past.
The_Fitz wrote: » You're repeating yourself now with a few of those, I've already answered them. Of course money will be pumped into Unionist culture, why wouldn't it?With regards to Feile an Phobail, I don't think you have a good comparison. Feile gets what, €300,000 a year? While I know that policing the 12th every year costs a minimum of around €14,000,000. Do you honestly believe that in a UI, orange parades would be banned? Not sure what you mean regarding the UK keeping nationalists happy with their flexibility on sporting teams? I'll repeat myself here, I couldn't care less if there was still an NI soccer team. They have no relevance to me, but I know they do for others, so happy to see that continue.
downcow wrote: » great flexibility is shown around national sporting teams to help keep the nationalist community content
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