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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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liamog

What real infrastructure looks like

unkel

liamog wrote: »

What real infrastructure looks like

16:29 says it all

Car drives up to charger, man hops out, picks up cable, sticks it into his car and just walks away, just 6 seconds after he got out of the car. He doesn't even (need to) check that the car is actually charging.

[Deleted User]

The route were taking regarding payment or to access chargers is bad also. You pay for petrol and diesel with euros, credit card, debit card or cash, all universal payment methods, the same should apply with charging and stop this nonsense of one card or fob for each network it’s mental and that should be sorted sooner rather than later.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

The route were taking regarding payment or to access chargers is bad also. You pay for petrol and diesel with euros, credit card, debit card or cash, all universal payment methods, the same should apply with charging and stop this nonsense of one card or fob for each network it’s mental and that should be sorted sooner rather than later.

It's a difficult one, you want universal access with NFC based payments, and people want plug&charge to work.

The plug&charge spec works by installing a digital membership in to your car, which then handles all the authentication and billing. It should basically be pay and go via NFC payments, and bill pay via plug and charge membership. That way you get the best of both worlds.

McGiver

unkel wrote:

The private sector works effectively and efficiently. State companies like the ESB do not. Heavy subsidies and free charging distort the market and prevent healthy competition.

Exactly.

Let the state focus on what they can (or could) do right - legislation, regulations and incentives. Not on building infrastructure which they were proven to be bad at time and time again.

I need to check the situation in Norway but I doubt the state built infrastructure over there and provided it for free.

Just follow Norway, the model has been proven to be working. I don't think the Irish government is capable of reinventing the wheel "Irish solution to an Irish problem". Look around Europe and copy the best policies. It's that simple, one doesn't need to be a genius to do that.

McGiver

Few weeks ago the Swiss federal government opened a tender for several dozens of charging hubs at rest places on major motorways which lie on federal gov owned land.

Criteria:
Max 500k EUR per site
100 sites total
2x HPC double CSS, 1x FCP triple head and battery storage per site minimum
Must support card payments
Deadline few years

This is on top of existing solid infrastructure. And on an area of about the same as Ireland.

In other news EV subsidies are being increased or introduced all over Europe.

I feel like Ireland is missing the train...

liamog

It depends what you want from a national charging network. An element of state support is required at the beginning to ensure there is a critical spread of chargers.
The difference between us and other EU countries, is that our government just outsourced the whole issue to ESB and let them get on with it.

Other countries used an agency like the NTA to fund chargers, but via open competition. Fortum is a state owned Finnish Energy Company, but has a huge network of charging infrastructure across the Nordics.
Similarly Fastned, a private company, competed for charging sites in The Netherlands, the UK has a number of fast chargers by many companies, funded by OLEV.

Our typically Irish approach was to avoid government interference in the roll out of the infrastructure, but pay the bills for a semi state to do it anyway, we're very good at grasping defeat from the jaws of victory.

Cyrus

liamog wrote: »

It depends what you want from a national charging network. An element of state support is required at the beginning to ensure there is a critical spread of chargers.
The difference between us and other EU countries, is that our government just outsourced the whole issue to ESB and let them get on with it.

Other countries used an agency like the NTA to fund chargers, but via open competition. Fortum is a state owned Finnish Energy Company, but has a huge network of charging infrastructure across the Nordics.
Similarly Fastned, a private company, competed for charging sites in The Netherlands, the UK has a number of fast chargers by many companies, funded by OLEV.

Our typically Irish approach was to avoid government interference in the roll out of the infrastructure, but pay the bills for a semi state to do it anyway, we're very good at grasping defeat from the jaws of victory.

from the etron owners forum on facebook the UK doesnt seem any great shakes either.

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

It depends what you want from a national charging network. An element of state support is required at the beginning to ensure there is a critical spread of chargers.
The difference between us and other EU countries, is that our government just outsourced the whole issue to ESB and let them get on with it.

Other countries used an agency like the NTA to fund chargers, but via open competition. Fortum is a state owned Finnish Energy Company, but has a huge network of charging infrastructure across the Nordics.
Similarly Fastned, a private company, competed for charging sites in The Netherlands, the UK has a number of fast chargers by many companies, funded by OLEV.

Our typically Irish approach was to avoid government interference in the roll out of the infrastructure, but pay the bills for a semi state to do it anyway, we're very good at grasping defeat from the jaws of victory.

Outsourced vs tendered is the critical issue here. Privatisation could help but no one would be interested in the less profitable parts of the network now.

liamog

Cyrus wrote: »

from the etron owners forum on facebook the UK doesnt seem any great shakes either.

The UK motorway network was captured by the worst operator, Electric Highway signed exclusivity deals with the service stations and didn't invest in upgrades or expansion. If you step away from the motorways there are now lots of DC chargers in supermarkets and pub car parks.

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

The UK motorway network was captured by the worst operator, Electric Highway signed exclusivity deals with the service stations and didn't invest in upgrades or expansion. If you step away from the motorways there are now lots of DC chargers in supermarkets and pub car parks.

And here lies the issue with privatising Ecars - I bet it would be bought by crappy UK operators...

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

And here lies the issue with privatising Ecars - I bet it would be bought by crappy UK operators...

Most of the UK operators are pretty good, Electric Highway wouldn't spend money, their owner is far more interested in his vegan football club

Silent Running

As far as I can see in most countries the electricity retailers have bought in and offer reduced rate - or free - public car charging to their account holders. Why has this not happened here?

AndyBoBandy

A subscription service could be a good earner for them;

€5-€10 per month for unlimited AC charging (DC charging charged at a per kWh rate)
€25 per month for unlimited AC & DC (DC capped at 200kWh)
€35 per month for unlimited AC & DC (DC capped at 400kWh)

Silent Running

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

A subscription service could be a good earner for them;

€5-€10 per month for unlimited AC charging (DC charging charged at a per kWh rate)
€25 per month for unlimited AC & DC (DC capped at 200kWh)
€35 per month for unlimited AC & DC (DC capped at 400kWh)

Why do we always put our hands out to be slapped.

The incentive for retailers is to attract customers. To my knowledge, in the UK they offer their customers cheap or free car charging as part of a household package.

Between you giving them notions of €35 a month and Unkel saying he'd pay €1 per kWh, It's not surprising we get screwed over in this country. We literally ask for it.

McGiver

Silent Running wrote: »

As far as I can see in most countries the electricity retailers have bought in and offer reduced rate - or free - public car charging to their account holders. Why has this not happened here?

Free? Where?

All what I see is paid charging across the whole Europe.

Actually, electricity providers seem to be favouring subscription/tariff based solutions rather than PAYG.
I think that's the way it will move ahead.

slave1

McGiver wrote: »

Free? Where?

All what I see is paid charging across the whole Europe.

Actually, electricity providers seem to be favouring subscription/tariff based solutions rather than PAYG.
I think that's the way it will move ahead.

Northern Ireland is free charging, Scotland is largely free charging

McGiver

slave1 wrote: »

Northern Ireland is free charging, Scotland is largely free charging

NI is not a country in true sense. Scotland is a borderline case in fairness. Any actual independent countries in Europe?

graememk

McGiver wrote: »

NI is not a country in true sense. Scotland is a borderline case in fairness. Any actual independent countries in Europe?

And it's run by a company in the republic!, same problem as here but with even less funding

Silent Running

McGiver wrote: »

Free? Where?

All what I see is paid charging across the whole Europe.

Actually, electricity providers seem to be favouring subscription/tariff based solutions rather than PAYG.
I think that's the way it will move ahead.

You've checked every retail electricity provider across the whole of Europe? :eek:

I know of a couple of providers where you can avail of free Polar Plus membership allowing you to charge free, or at greatly reduced rate at any Polar charger, and there are a huge amount of Polar chargers in the UK.

Some offer free miles as part of their home electricity account. Shell for Example. Even the woeful Ecotricity offer cheap public charging if you are a home electricity customer. That's just from speaking to people at chargers in the UK. People love to tell you that you're paying for something they're getting free.

Other companies have tariffs that offer EV owners a night rate even cheaper than the normal economy 7 night rate to attract customers.

As mentioned, Scottish Power give free charging. I'm sure with a little digging there would be more examples in the UK and more across Europe.

I hope you're wrong about the subscription stuff. Many won't even subscribe to Ecars here as they don't public charge enough to justify it; a huge amount of people do most of their charging at home/work, me included.

But sure, if you put ideas in their heads in a public forum, maybe they'll take you up on your offer of €35 per month.:P

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

Other companies have tariffs that offer EV owners a night rate even cheaper than the normal economy 7 night rate to attract customers.

There's even a company in the UK - Octopus - that pay you if you take their electricity at some times :cool:

This is the new future of massive renewables where at some times electricity is very cheap, free, or even has a negative value while we adjust our grid (storage) to cope with it. Interesting times! I'm ready for it, within a year I hope to have at least 120kWh of storage that I can connect to my house

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

There's even a company in the UK - Octopus - that pay you if you take their electricity at some times :cool:

This is the new future of massive renewables where at some times electricity is very cheap, free, or even has a negative value while we adjust our grid (storage) to cope with it. Interesting times! I'm ready for it, within a year I hope to have at least 120kWh of storage that I can connect to my house

Wouldn't it be crap if you paid €35 a month while others are being paid to take electricity?

Calahonda52

McGiver wrote: »

Exactly.

Let the state focus on what they can (or could) do right - legislation, regulations and incentives. Not on building infrastructure which they were proven to be bad at time and time again.

You too young to remember Ardnacrusha power plant?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_hydroelectric_scheme

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

Wouldn't it be crap if you paid €35 a month while others are being paid to take electricity?

Not a chance I'll pay any of them even a fiver a month for a subscription

It does seem like a viable business model though. In NL you pay Fastned €0.59 /kWh PAYG or €0.35 /kWh as a member paying €11.99 per month subscription. I would happily pay the former for the rare occasion I need public fast charging. The latter is for people who do a lot of travel and of course for the people who don't have a car charge point at home for their EV (a considerable and growing percentage of EV owners in the Netherlands but almost 0% of owners in Ireland)

ELM327

I don't think I'd pay a subscription as I don't use it enough.
Most routes are now covered by SuC, Ionity-Maingau and easygo that I don't need a subscription for.

Silent Running

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't think I'd pay a subscription as I don't use it enough.
Most routes are now covered by SuC, Ionity-Maingau and easygo that I don't need a subscription for.

Any you do quite a high mileage, don't you?

I think most EV drivers would be the same and wouldn't use it enough to justify any subscription... but you would probably switch your home electricity supplier if they offered you free or reduced cost charging on a popular network, like Polar in the UK.

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

Not a chance I'll pay any of them even a fiver a month for a subscription

It does seem like a viable business model though. In NL you pay Fastned €0.59 /kWh PAYG or €0.35 /kWh as a member paying €11.99 per month subscription. I would happily pay the former for the rare occasion I need public fast charging. The latter is for people who do a lot of travel and of course for the people who don't have a car charge point at home for their EV (a considerable and growing percentage of EV owners in the Netherlands but almost 0% of owners in Ireland)

But Fastned are like Ionity, they don't do home electricity (do they?).

My point was specific to the likes of SSE who offer special domestic rates to EV owners. SSE don't do that here. I wonder why not.

ELM327

Silent Running wrote: »

Any you do quite a high mileage, don't you?

I think most EV drivers would be the same and wouldn't use it enough to justify any subscription... but you would probably switch your home electricity supplier if they offered you free or reduced cost charging on a popular network, like Polar in the UK.

Yes I would (pre covid) have done >50k a year.

I would indeed switch for a reduced rate if it made sense.

innrain

Stealthirl wrote: »

From this report https://www.mdpi.com/2032-6653/11/1/18

I skimmed read the article and I found interesting the figure 11 which shows usage of over 1000 MWh per month in Feb 2019. And that is before larger batteries came on the market. at 25c per kWh that's € 250 k per month or about € 3M a year. And since than the number of EV probably doubled.

Busman Paddy Lasty

innrain wrote: »

I skimmed read the article and I found interesting the figure 11 which shows usage of over 1000 MWh per month in Feb 2019. And that is before larger batteries came on the market. at 25c per kWh that's € 250 k per month or about € 3M a year. And since than the number of EV probably doubled.

Figures post Nov 2019 will be a fun comparison. 1000 MWh of free juice vs ??? MWh paid service.