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Child Item

School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

Bobtheman

So the non plan seems to be to sacrifice the health of teachers. Basically social distancing rules outside will be ignored inside the schools.
In terms of kids and students not in terms of staffrooms.
Teachers will keep the 2 metre rule vis a via each other.
Obviously kids health will be risked too.
I appreciate there is no easy solution.
But this ain't it .

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mirrorwall14

Treppen wrote: »

It's unofficial though. Regular unions should be doing this survey

Oh I meant the articles about third level. They did come thouhh

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

It's unofficial though. Regular unions should be doing this survey

Gary Gannon has a video up on his FB this evening where he talks about various members of the opposition meeting with the Minister today and according to him she offered nothing concrete. Lots of 'appreciation' and 'sympathy' for the difficulties in schools, but no concrete plans, no money.

Interestingly he had a print out of the VFT survey and went through a couple of the questions and the teacher response to it.

Rosita

To be fair to the Minister we must presume that when decisions regarding money and organising schools are made they will be announced in an appropriate way. Lack of information at the moment does not necessarily mean disaster.

In fact, given the fears of a jump in numbers in the coming weeks any announcement might be too early anyway. I reckon they would do well to defer the full opening of schools to students until mid-September so as to see how the virus is behaving and allow arrangements to be made in schools and around state exams/projects.

We'll have been through all the phases of opening by then and there might be a chance to assess the situation with actual information and try to make arrangements that won't come unstuck at the first hurdle that emerges.

It is difficult for the Department to be expected to announce plans for September by the end of July when the virus is in such an unpredictable and potentially volatile state in Ireland where we are really only testing the water gradually after lockdown. I think the pressure for early information will lead to disaster further down the road. I think getting it right is better than getting it early.

rainbowtrout

Even if students are only in on a part time basis, teachers will be in. If that's the case, will they be providing PPE for teachers? That's a simple enough plan to figure out.

Will they be providing funding for extra cleaning staff, and cleaning supplies?

Going by the latest department statistics there are approximately 960k students in the education system between primary, secondary and further education. On top of that there are 67k teachers, and I don't have figures for SNAs, secretaries and other ancillary staff.

https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Key-Statistics/key-statistics-2018-2019.pdf

That's over 1 million people who are directly affected by DES decisions and are expecting to return to schools in September. That's almost one quarter of the country's population. On top of that is the knock on effect on parents of those students who may not be able to return to work if their children cannot return to school. Some of those parents are also teachers.

That is an economic issue more than a health one. However almost one quarter of the countries population are directly affected by the return to school and there is no plan.

There is nothing wrong with formulating a plan

Plan A: everything reopens and everyone returns: this is what is going to happen in that scenario
Plan B: teachers return and students return part time, this is what is going to happen in that scenario
Plan C: teachers return and some students (like exam classes in second level, and junior infants etc in primary return, everyone else stays at home and learns online, this is what is going to happen in that scenario
Plan

the country has gone to **** so everyone stays at home and more or less continues from where we were before the summer, here are the resources for that scenario.

The government were capable of putting together a five stage plan for the country back in April, which could be sped up or slowed down as necessary and it covered the time frame up to the end of August. Why can we not have a plan with some flexibility for the reopening of schools in September?

There is a plan for pubs. There is none for schools. Pubs do not provide a necessary service (aside from employment). Schools are lower in the pecking order than pubs, hairdressers, green list countries which have no direct flights (Hello Greenland and Monaco), GAA fixtures, 6 Nations Rugby, shopping in Penneys, visiting hotel for weekends away.

Things might change in the coming weeks, that's fine, then the plan can be adjusted. But do they really mean to say that there's no point planning because things might change? The DES would be the very ones to slate teachers who go into their classrooms unprepared, but that's exactly what we are expected to do in September under the current conditions.

scrubs33

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40020440.html
An article about tonight’s FF party meeting. Not sure what to make of the last paragraph.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There is a plan for pubs. There is none for schools. Pubs do not provide a necessary service (aside from employment). Schools are lower in the pecking order than pubs, hairdressers, green list countries which have no direct flights (Hello Greenland and Monaco), GAA fixtures, 6 Nations Rugby, shopping in Penneys, visiting hotel for weekends away.
.

But all the things you mention apart from schools are private sector concerns. Whether they ever open their doors again or not doesn't directly concern the government. The government provides guidelines and its up to these private concerns to adhere to them.

I would say the sheer impossibility of schools opening under any normal conditions given the need for social distancing until a vaccine emerges is more of a hindrance to planning than it not being regarded as a priority.

And to be brutally honest I don't see the value in announcing four or five contingency plans. That would create even more chaos.

Rosita

scrubs33 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40020440.html
An article about tonight’s FF party meeting. Not sure what to make of the last paragraph.

I'm not sure a FF parliamentary party meeting would be the place for an announcement. I wouldn't make anything of it.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

But all the things you mention apart from schools are private sector concerns. Whether they ever open their doors again or not doesn't directly concern the government. The government provides guidelines and its up to these private concerns to adhere to them.

I would say the sheer impossibility of schools opening under any normal conditions given the need for social distancing until a vaccine emerges is more of a hindrance to planning than it not being regarded as a priority.

And to be brutally honest I don't see the value in announcing four or five contingency plans. That would create even more chaos.

They are of concern to the government because these activities can increase the spread of the virus, they are services and activities which create situations in which there is little or no social distancing, and economically there is a fallout where the government is picking up the tab, whether that be through the covid payment, or social welfare down the line.

There is also an impact on the healthcare sector if these services re-open without government input in how they are run, because if there is a spike in cases hospitals will feel the brunt of it.

The government doesn't care how many pints you drink in the pub, but they do care that people will pack into pubs given the chance, have lots of drinks, get drunk and ignore social distancing and spread the virus. They have a vested interest in preventing that from happening so they have a plan for them.

Education is an essential service, and also one that involves lots of people being present in close quarters for a large part of the day. So a plan is needed.

There doesn't need to be confusion for contingency plans, it's not that hard to say 'We plan to reopen, we will be supplying every teacher in the country with a visor/mask. Every student in the country may only attend school if they are wearing a mask. They will line up in a socially distancing queue when entering the school each morning, they will wash their hands and their temperature will be taken. Each school will be supplied with an infra red thermometer. If it is above 38 degrees, their parents will be called to take them home and they will not be readmitted to school until they have taken a covid test and tested negative, or quarantined for 14 days. We are reopening schools on the basis that national cases do not go above 30 per day. If cases start to increase in the coming weeks in August we will be implementing a plan for students to attend part time with priority given to exam classes.' Or something to that effect.

It's really not that hard.

jetfiremuck

As a precursor youve only to see the leaving cert drip drip fiasco.........and now the sh"t show with the results...jesus wept.

Dont want to open the lid on the childcare minefield...where are the teachers kids going to go, what about their families as well as others too

scrubs33

Rosita wrote: »

I'm not sure a FF parliamentary party meeting would be the place for an announcement. I wouldn't make anything of it.

Granted but to have nothing at all to say is perhaps not the best stance to have around such a serious issue.

mirrorwall14

Rosita wrote: »

But all the things you mention apart from schools are private sector concerns. Whether they ever open their doors again or not doesn't directly concern the government. The government provides guidelines and its up to these private concerns to adhere to them.

I would say the sheer impossibility of schools opening under any normal conditions given the need for social distancing until a vaccine emerges is more of a hindrance to planning than it not being regarded as a priority.

And to be brutally honest I don't see the value in announcing four or five contingency plans. That would create even more chaos.

I would disagree here. I think there absolutely is a need for a full set of stages of contingency. We need those if there is a case in a school. If the numbers increase, if there is a flu epidemic this winter too.

schools should have a set of stages the BOM can implement as needs be depending on infections at a local level working on the advice of the NPHET, HSE and DES

Eg
No lockdown all in school in a pod style or other appropriate system
Partial lockdown. One year group isolated at home. All teachers working around that according to their timetable
Partial lockdown. 2m social distancing applies so students rotate in and out of the building to accommodate numbers
Partial lockdown. Only exam classes in. Teachers working around this
Full lockdown. All students at home teachers only in the building
Full lockdown. No one in the building

grind gremlin

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They are of concern to the government because these activities can increase the spread of the virus, they are services and activities which create situations in which there is little or no social distancing, and economically there is a fallout where the government is picking up the tab, whether that be through the covid payment, or social welfare down the line.

There is also an impact on the healthcare sector if these services re-open without government input in how they are run, because if there is a spike in cases hospitals will feel the brunt of it.

The government doesn't care how many pints you drink in the pub, but they do care that people will pack into pubs given the chance, have lots of drinks, get drunk and ignore social distancing and spread the virus. They have a vested interest in preventing that from happening so they have a plan for them.

Education is an essential service, and also one that involves lots of people being present in close quarters for a large part of the day. So a plan is needed.

There doesn't need to be confusion for contingency plans, it's not that hard to say 'We plan to reopen, we will be supplying every teacher in the country with a visor/mask. Every student in the country may only attend school if they are wearing a mask. They will line up in a socially distancing queue when entering the school each morning, they will wash their hands and their temperature will be taken. Each school will be supplied with an infra red thermometer. If it is above 38 degrees, their parents will be called to take them home and they will not be readmitted to school until they have taken a covid test and tested negative, or quarantined for 14 days. We are reopening schools on the basis that national cases do not go above 30 per day. If cases start to increase in the coming weeks in August we will be implementing a plan for students to attend part time with priority given to exam classes.' Or something to that effect.

It's really not that hard.

While I agree with what you are saying, ‘lining up in a socially distanced queue’ would require a line that is more than 50 meters long for a class of 25. I could have one child in the class and another in the car park..... lol

shesty

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Education is an essential service, and also one that involves lots of people being present in close quarters for a large part of the day. So a plan is needed.

There doesn't need to be confusion for contingency plans, it's not that hard to say 'We plan to reopen, we will be supplying every teacher in the country with a visor/mask. Every student in the country may only attend school if they are wearing a mask. They will line up in a socially distancing queue when entering the school each morning, they will wash their hands and their temperature will be taken. Each school will be supplied with an infra red thermometer. If it is above 38 degrees, their parents will be called to take them home and they will not be readmitted to school until they have taken a covid test and tested negative, or quarantined for 14 days. We are reopening schools on the basis that national cases do not go above 30 per day. If cases start to increase in the coming weeks in August we will be implementing a plan for students to attend part time with priority given to exam classes.' Or something to that effect.

It's really not that hard.

It really is not that hard.

Sitting on their hands until a vaccine appears would be horrifying, to be honest. To not even attempt anything? To just say yeah well our facilities aren't good enough, we won't be investing in them, everyone just go and cope.....?? What a reflection on the Dept of Education - and on all of us, as a country.

Equally waiting to see the numbers - what exactly will that achieve? And what point do we decide to open or not open? The week before? The day before? Totally impractical. What if the numbers are the exact same as now? And the rest of the country is opening up but the Dept can't get their sh&t together enough to make a few basic plans for schools? I mean if they even went so far as to offer guidelines around online platforms and teaching, that would be something, but they haven't even managed that.

rainbowtrout

grind gremlin wrote: »

While I agree with what you are saying, ‘lining up in a socially distanced queue’ would require a line that is more than 50 meters long for a class of 25. I could have one child in the class and another in the car park..... lol

That’s what you take from all of that???

400 students do not arrive at school at the same time.

grind gremlin

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That’s what you take from all of that???

400 students do not arrive at school at the same time.

I agree with all of your points made. We need a clear and concise plan and the one you suggested is definitely worthwhile.
As a primary school teacher, I can see problems with a socially distanced line. Anyone that has walked with a line of infants, unless they are closely packed together, they can very easily go astray. All you need is one daydreamer to stand still, lose the person in front of them, and you’ve a line of sheep all heading in the wrong direction. It happens on a regular basis.
I wasn’t criticising your points at all. They are valid. We need a clear and concise plan.

Just wanted to edit... I do not advocate packing infants closely together in the current climate!

shesty

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/covid-19-parents-say-loss-of-teaching-posts-could-jeopardise-safe-reopening-of-schools-1.4310856?mode=amp

It's this stuff....this is the stuff that could be being addressed now.Bend or adjust the rules around posts and numbers.Same as most workplaces have to adjust to manage.

FYI, I see down at the end of the article a note about about a release of information from the Dept next week, and information about sanitiser budgets and PPE being centrally procured.

rainbowtrout

grind gremlin wrote: »

I wasn’t criticising your points at all.

Well that’s exactly what you did with you’re edgy after hours comment.

grind gremlin

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well that’s exactly what you did with you’re edgy after hours comment.

It wasn’t meant to be offensive at all. I was alluding to the inherent difficulties of attempting to get young children to socially distance. By alleviating one risk (Person to person transmission), we might be creating another risk.....
If I am bringing a class into my room and the line is socially distanced.... am I at the front of the line..... in the middle.... or at the end.... either way I cannot see all of my pupils....

lulublue22

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well that’s exactly what you did with you’re edgy after hours comment.

TBF grindgremlin was probably looking at it from a primary level. 2 m SD queuing can be quite difficult to manage at primary. Also all our children are bussed to school so yes they do all arrive at the same time. Obviously that will have to change going forward.

grind gremlin

lulublue22 wrote: »

TBF grindgremlin was probably looking at it from a primary level. 2 m SD queuing can be quite difficult to manage at primary. Also all our children are bussed to school so yes they do all arrive at the same time. Obviously that will have to change going forward.

Throw a child with additional needs / anxiety into the mix (that may not want to enter the school) and we have a huge challenge ahead of us.

Staggered times in primary may throw up other challenges too. Parents and siblings may congregate as they await the start times of different siblings.
The bottleneck might move from within the school grounds to the car park / footpath outside.

wirelessdude01

shesty wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/covid-19-parents-say-loss-of-teaching-posts-could-jeopardise-safe-reopening-of-schools-1.4310856?mode=amp

It's this stuff....this is the stuff that could be being addressed now.Bend or adjust the rules around posts and numbers.Same as most workplaces have to adjust to manage.

FYI, I see down at the end of the article a note about about a release of information from the Dept next week, and information about sanitiser budgets and PPE being centrally procured.

Well done to those parents. Schools really can only do so much when it comes to these things so thanks to those parents for stepping up and creating a racket.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There doesn't need to be confusion for contingency plans, it's not that hard to say 'We plan to reopen, we will be supplying every teacher in the country with a visor/mask. Every student in the country may only attend school if they are wearing a mask. They will line up in a socially distancing queue when entering the school each morning, they will wash their hands and their temperature will be taken. Each school will be supplied with an infra red thermometer. If it is above 38 degrees, their parents will be called to take them home and they will not be readmitted to school until they have taken a covid test and tested negative, or quarantined for 14 days. We are reopening schools on the basis that national cases do not go above 30 per day. If cases start to increase in the coming weeks in August we will be implementing a plan for students to attend part time with priority given to exam classes.' Or something to that effect.

It's really not that hard.

I think it's harder than you might imagine.

Take this for example: We are reopening schools on the basis that national cases do not go above 30 per day.

Is it tenable to close schools in Kerry and Waterford if the 30 cases are in Cavan and Monaghan? There are so many variables that no government is going to stand over a gun-to-the-head comment like that where a journalist is going apoplectic saying "but you said...................".

And socially distanced queues? Where? Is there space to queue 700 students like that? If it's outdoor what about when the weather is dire? And what about the latecomers wandering around the school? It's easy to pick holes in this.

Leaving aside specific details like that, essentially the government is going to have to square the circle where they are on the one hand advising that no more than 50 people can gather in a very large church, or 200 outdoor in a very large GAA ground with a scenario where they are expected to put 30 teenagers into a relatively tiny space. They have crashed the economy on the basis of social distancing and now have to organise their own house in contravention of all those decisions. I'd say that's difficult.

And PPE, visors etc.......................we know that this is readily available and sourceable, do we? Not so sure.

And all being organised at a time when it is anticipated that cases are likely to be rising, and the country has never threatened to get to zero cases.

I would think organising all of that in a situation where every single thing you do will be criticised to the hilt by somebody is actually quite difficult.

I am giving the Minister the benefit of the doubt and time will tell but at the moment I am glad that she is reticent about giving out details that she does not have. The alternative is Simon Harris's constant "we are going back to school any day now" updates.

At least let us acknowledge the difficulty of the challenge.

TheValeyard

1200 students with a large amount bussed in and arrive at the same time. 8.30 school is dead quiet. 08.45 school is packed. No way be able to get a queue going or even social distancing.

Rosita

shesty wrote: »

Equally waiting to see the numbers - what exactly will that achieve?

What an extraordinary comment. If we are not to base actions and decisions on actual information we are really screwed.

mirrorwall14

7 billion stimulus package. Irish times

Includes:
“Every school in the country will be eligible for an enhanced minor works scheme worth tens of millions of euros, intended to fund structural alterations to classrooms and improve bathrooms to facilitate hand-washing.”

wirelessdude01

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

7 billion stimulus package. Irish times

Includes:
“Every school in the country will be eligible for an enhanced minor works scheme worth tens of millions of euros, intended to fund structural alterations to classrooms and improve bathrooms to facilitate hand-washing.”

Interesting to see the terms and conditions to this. Guessing the whole three tenders thing will be thrown in the wind.

Rosita

Two chances of going back in late August so if there's building work going on.

shesty

Rosita wrote: »

What an extraordinary comment. If we are not to base actions and decisions on actual information we are really screwed.

My point is not the actual numbers.In context of my overall post, my comment makes sense.My point is the timing.At some point, someone has to make a decision.As a country, are we aiming for zero cases to reopen, or are we aiming to try to reopen with a small numbers of cases.The Government is obviously using case numbers to generate it's "phased" openings, so where in the overall case numbers do they see school reopenings sit.At present, it would seem they are happy to reopen while the numbers are at their current level, but what is missing then is Departmental plans to mitigate risk of infection given that we are not at zero.

Obviously if we want cases down to zero before reopening, it is a totally different story.

rainbowtrout

A lot of people seem to have very little faith in students and their ability to queue. They have to queue everywhere now. Why should they behave any differently coming into a school. Talking to a fifth year this morning who does Irish dancing and football and she told me her temperature is taken entering the Irish dancing class and they are asked questions about sickness. Social distancing at football training. They are already doing all of these things.

Queuing to go into school may mean that when a child gets to school in the morning they queue to enter get their temperature taken and they go to their classroom or wherever. They don’t come back out. I know in some primary schools they are in the yard in the morning and line up and go into the classroom. That might have to change.

Weather was brought up. That affects everywhere in the country. You might find yourself queuing outside Tesco in the rain in December to do your shopping. Presumably you’ll bring a raincoat and umbrella.

If parents are capable of dropping their kids to football etc at the moment and adhering to guidelines about not hanging around surely they will manage it for schools too.

Rosita

shesty wrote: »

My point is not the actual numbers.In context of my overall post, my comment makes sense.My point is the timing.At some point, someone has to make a decision.

Yes, they do, but it makes sense to see how figures react to the lifting of restrictions as we work through the phases. Opening schools involves such an enormous movement of people every day that it needs to be done with a close eye on infection rates. The more information and the more up to date it is the better I would say. No point in making a rash decision based on partial information in July and having to row back on it in a month's time even before schools are open. A few weeks won't make much difference - schools will be chaotic in the autumn either way.