gormdubhgorm wrote: » Come on Francie you know them all. I certainly do not have to list them all. They are all on record. Even on a smaller simplier level SF are odd. As you said yourself they are not a normal political party. Damn right they are not! After all SF is a party with leader in the Dail who cannot and will not say, the name of the State they are purporting to represent! :rolleyes:https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/newton-emerson-sinn-f%C3%A9in-will-not-be-told-what-to-call-the-republic-1.4192872?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fnewton-emerson-sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-will-not-be-told-what-to-call-the-republic-1.4192872https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/why-sinn-f%C3%A9in-will-not-call-the-state-by-its-name-1.4182195 'This State' and 'Southern Government' are used and so on. :mad:
downcow wrote: » I described the murder as disgusting and despicable. You must have missed that bit.
I was taking offence to Francie raising that disgusting murder in a discussion on the 12th to somehow demonstrate that that those involved in parading had something to do with it. That is a horrible untrue accusation. Drugs were at the core of it. Even you qualify your claim of sectarianism by suggesting a personal grudge was involved - and you are also raising something I know nothing about ie giving sweets to kids.
As for bands seemingly insisting to play music past their granny’s house. That is plain wrong and I condemn it unequivocally.
The irony. With the kids growing up as prods in a working class community, building the boney and going to parades, it is inevitable some of them would have ended up as members of one of these bands.
This was a horrible chaotic time and most unionist politicians were doing all they could to defuse the situation on the 12th morning, with facts not clear, so you shouldn’t take their words at that time as evidence of anything. A terrible summer. 4 people including these 3 kids and a terrorist were killed by so-called loyalists while 31 People, all civilians including 11 children were killed by so-called Irish republicans.
But I repeat Francie used this tragedy to have a go at my community and culture and I simply presented some facts to bring some context
downcow wrote: » Haha. I had never really noticed that, but now you mention it. What is it they won’t say? And there was me thinking it was just the name of my country they despised. They are a wired lot
downcow wrote: » Another question fitz. If the british community ended up concentrated east of the river Bann, and there was no real appetite west of the Bann for devolution. Would you let them guys stay in the big bit and let east of the Bann have devolution. You’ll be making Francie I’ll with this talk lol
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Come on Francie you know them all. I certainly do not have to list them all. They are all on record. Even on a smaller simplier level SF are odd. As you said yourself they are not a normal political party. Damn right they are not! After all SF is a party with leader in the Dail who cannot and will not say, the name of the State they are purporting to represent! :rolleyes:https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/newton-emerson-sinn-f%C3%A9in-will-not-be-told-what-to-call-the-republic-1.4192872?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fnewton-emerson-sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-will-not-be-told-what-to-call-the-republic-1.4192872 'This State' and 'Southern Government' are used and so on. :mad:
The_Fitz wrote: » All answered
FrancieBrady wrote: » What 'hard questions' are they allowed avoid? Are these the questions you guys have already decided on the answers you want?
downcow wrote: » you see Fionn there is plenty of time for that if it should ever happen. If it happened my community would have the whip hand. A minority of 1 million people who have just had their country taken of them and feel alienated by their new rulers. A few centuries ago you could have just put us down, but unfortunately for you the world will not stand by and let you do that. They will instead ask you very hard questions about why this minority are feeling so alienated
downcow wrote: » Okay Fitz, I think you are genuine, and you have sucked me into a discussion. Can I start with a few questions I was asking an earlier post. In this hypothetical situation of a united Ireland would you: support devolution for Northern Ireland to a similar extent as Scotland currently have in the UK? I would definitely be up for a discussion as to how that would look. Would you allow us to have's two sporting teams, similar to England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland currently in the UK? In fact would you go further and lobby FIFA to allow it As an Ireland fan, this would not bother me one iota Would you allow our road signage to stay as it is i.e. not bilingual like the rest of the island? As an Irish language enthusiast, I couldn't care less what's on a sign, so yes. Will you allow our parades in new capital city i.e. Dublin? Yes Will you change your anthem and flag as obviously what you currently have has very bad memories from my community? I think that both are on the table, and personally, happy for both to be up for discussion if it helps smooths the process. Will you insist that major sporting bodies on the island become nonsectarian i.e. not allow them to parade religious priests at their events? I don't understand this one fully, and not aware of sectarian priests being paraded by sporting bodies, but as someone who has no interest in the Catholic church having any say in anything, then yes. Will you allow us to keep our British passports and negotiate British nationality for several generations of children? 100% yes That's just a few for starters Fitz
downcow wrote: » Francie, I don't know how many times I need to say to you, that I completely support the GFA and should there be a border poll, I will completely abide by the result. That is the deal. I am as sure as I can be about anything that we will not see the majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting to leave the UK in my lifetime or my children's lifetime. In the unlikely scenario that there would be a majority vote for a united Ireland, I have little doubt that the vast majority of my community will feel alienated and will be campaigning for as much autonomy as possible. We will obviously want a devolved government at Stormont, and I can't think of any scenario where the ROI government would not support that. They would undoubtedly be getting I made a collision course if they did not. I am curious, do you think they would refuse devolution for Northern Ireland?
I just hope we can keep our football team, and there is clearly a precedent for that, as England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland are all in the same union but have separate teams. I am also curious Francie, would you support our desire to have a separate football team?
Fionn1952 wrote: » See the thing is Downcow, if I still lived in the North I would absolutely be part of talks as to what I would like an inclusive NI to look like while it remains part of the United Kingdom. I would continue to aspire towards unification, but I can also accept that there is a possibility that won't happen. If unification isn't going to happen, I have a responsibility to future generations to ensure that even should it not be exactly what I hope for, that I at least ensure some compromises are made to accommodate my community. I would suggest that while Unionists will never aspire towards unification, those who are reasonably minded will at least accept it is a possibility and ensure that they can at least make their voice heard in making it as palatable as possible to them. You seem to be arguing in favour of ostrich techniques. Bury your head in the sand, pretend it is impossible, and act like engaging with a bit of hedging would somehow make it worse for you.
The_Fitz wrote: » As I said previously, the more discussions, the better. The more we understand the fears of the people who we want to share the island with, the better.
FrancieBrady wrote: » You support the GFA which states that a UI will happen if the majority decide on that. Are the Unionists community going to huff if it doesn't go their way? Will it be ok for the Nationalist community to huff and not take part in government if they fail to get a UI? You are not much of a democrat when it comes down to it. Refuse to engage if you don't get your way and refuse to guarantee that you will be peaceful if you don't get your way either.
downcow wrote: » Really the greatest evidence of all is that the Protestant population dropped from 10% to 3%. And a fair proportion of those 3% that remained were wealthy influencers
downcow wrote: » Guy's please try to keep up. I am absolutely not suggesting such, I am using it as an example for Fitz. I am just wondering would he hold talks with the only outcome on the agenda was something that was the opposite of what he wanted
downcow wrote: » Okay, that's fine Fitz, I missed that. Will we open a thread on it LOL
gormdubhgorm wrote: » SF allowed to avoid hard questions and are permitted to enter DE and Stormont even though they are not a 'normal' political party (as Francie Brady said).
The_Fitz wrote: » Yes I did Go back and check.
Fionn1952 wrote: » Doesn't this totally go against your point about self determination, Downcow?! The hypocrisy is hanging out again if this is an actual goal of yours.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Dream on. You're facing an Irish Sea border because both governments have the opposite aspiration. The very best you can hope for is to slow the pace of unification down by making the north indistinguishable from the south. I suggest you start embracing your Irishness and put the Union flags away. Good man.
The Golden Miller wrote: » The Irish were treated as second class citizens, and denied Irish citizenship. Left behind by the south and British culture lorded over them, denigrating any aspect of their Irishness. Will there be some equivalence of the above that unionists will face in a united Ireland? Backfired indeed! Your own comprehension is the only thing that backfires around here
The Golden Miller wrote: » Who's talking about religion? When pulled you say you have equal contempt for "both sides", so quote me one post where you criticised the unionists side and the unionist side alone, without trying to bring it back to the nationalist side. Because your posting history doesn't align with this view that your criticise both sides equally, infact the opposite. You harp on about and belittle one side, and one side alone, ad nauseum
gormdubhgorm wrote: » St Patrick was a Welshman a Brit. Most famous 'honorary Irishman' after St Jack. Plus a crowd of mostly protestant English born players went to visit the Pope in Rome back in 1990! Again close cultural ties between both countries is shown here. Personally I don't have much time for all that religion guff.It is just people looking for something to cling on to. Looking for a 'badge' and safety net of sorts. If you look at it what is the rate of regular mass going in NI or the ROI? Most don't bother in the ROI anyway. I think the lack of real interest in religion these days is just another thing both Britain and the ROI have in common.As for the Orange marches I don't think they are a good thing. If people don't like them ignore them. However, Catholics can hardly claim the moral high ground when it comes treatment of those from another religion. You only have to look up the ancient Order of Hibernianshttps://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/make-way-for-the-molly-maguires-the-ancient-order-of-hibernians-and-the-irish-parliamentary-party-1902-14/https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:83jfzeTk9hkJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ancient-order-must-adapt-or-disappear-1.176810+&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie or Ne Temere decree from the catholic church in 1907https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dekHulEiCpIJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/research-finds-protestant-obsession-with-ne-temere-1.120625+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie And of course the 'Baptism Barrier' in ROI schools which created hassle for second generation Irish kids who might not be of the Catholic faith. Only was removed in 2019!https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/baptism-barrier-to-catholic-schools-to-go-next-year-1.3488198 I find anyone who crows about thier religion is always looking for trouble. It is yet another reason why I do not want all that crap brought into a UI if at all possible. But the reality is if Catholics and Protestants were real Christians (in truest sense) they would not use thier versions of Christianity as an excuse for a row. TLDR: Ireland is full of hypocrisy over religion (Catholics and Protestants), people who rarely practice it yet some use it as badge. Plus Nordies are particular headbangers when it comes to religion. If thier is ever a UI or Ireland rejoins the commonwealth. I hope there is a separation of church and state as Ireland is now a more secular homogeneous society.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Calling a spade a spade and a shovel a shovel. I think there is a pair of youse in it both Republicans and Unionists. When NI matures politically and moves on to the next stage of real compromise and decency from both sides. Only then will there be movement forward.Personally I think the DUP and SF are just as bad as each other. Ironically the main thing they have in common is they know how to constantly wind each other up, getting constant digs in. Playing to the gallery. Heaven forbid that they try and look for common ground! I find it gas that for any change to really happen the moderates with a bit of cop on will have to take charge. All the school playground antics (literally and metaphorically) means thing may never change. It is always high on negative symbolism for one side and low on consensus on the other.
The point isn't who treated the poor better, the point is your sole focus is always to taking attention away from what Britain did, and bringing it back to castigating one's own country. Always the same narrative, like I said above.
SF and DUP are both sh!tehawks? Funny, I can't even remember a post from you criticising or even mentioning DUP, yet I'd say the vast majority of your posting history is running down SF. Impartial indeed!
They they have more in common culturally? How so? How do they have more in common with English people culturally, than their fellow Irish man? And you'd know this because you live there? Or your just talking absolute drivel again?
How is Republicanism given a blind eye? If you think that, you really have your head buried in the sand.
downcow wrote: » nonsense Francie. Firstly the international agreement was to stop people killing each other here, and in reality that means stopping the IRA killing, because most of the rest of the killings were in reaction to their sectarianism.
Of course the OO is dying out. Every archaic organisation from the churches to the AOH, the Masonic to the gentlemens clubs are all dying out. TBH the OO is bucking the trend by dying out very very slowly. The loyalist band scene has never been stronger and is growing and very attractive to young people. This is what I have argued all along is that cultures should be allowed to evolve. This is why money should not be pumped into what the great at the good or the gatekeepers decide what should be our culture. The loyalist band's should rise or fall on the interest and energy of those wanting to be involved in the should not be propped up with money from government, nor should the OO receive money to slow down its inevitable decline - exactly the same goes for Irish language and other Irish culture. You pretend that no one has any problem with my culture or identity. If a loyalist band, behaving impeccably, paraded down the Falls Road playing hymns, there would be mayhem from the locals, so don't try and pretend you do not despise my culture. You are now stuck with picking things out of last century to have a dig at it. Will you still be doing this next century?
The_Fitz wrote: » Telling people who they have more in common with and not allowing them to make that decision for themselves is a bit pathetic.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » It is a hypocritical demonstration of Irishness as I have already said. As most Republicans in NI have more in common with Britain (aside from politics) than any sense of Irishness. It always seems like adults playing out a Christmas panto with dressing up flags and so on, to me.
downcow wrote: » Fitz you still have not told me whether you would be up for a discussion on how stability can be created by both governments agreeing and declaring that Ireland will never be united and that instead support NI and it's existence and prosperity.
