The_Fitz wrote: » Insightful. You'd honestly think it was only the people in the 6 counties who created the environment for whatever sh*tshow has happened. Total ignorance of history. Thanks for saying that Brits are welcome to me Stormont is a glorified super council, so the politicians in the north looking like councillors isn't exactly shocking.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Come on. Loads of them are so amateurish in NI as politicians, granted there are few exceptions on both sides. But all are so used to playing 'the game' they forget half the time that they are there to actually serve people! Really frustrating to watch and listen to. :mad: Atmosphere up North needs to be normalised. When people can start talking about pot holes (not burial grounds) and normal day to day stuff. None of this pantomime dressing up, and provocative orations about the past. Or none of these 'shows of force' at funerals... Only then is NI ready for a border poll. I think it is way more distant than people think as a result. This thread proves it.
downcow wrote: » Your problem is that deep down you believe that it somehow more proper that the island is united, because it is surrounded by sea. I don't believe the United Kingdom would stand in the way of any country who voted by more than 50% today whether that be England Scotland Wales or Northern Ireland. I could just as easily say the writing is on the wall for the permanency of Northern Ireland since your country has removed its claim over it. Somebody was telling us a few posts ago how the writing has been on the wall now for a century. So if you remain happy with the writing on the wall then we are all honky dorey
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Sure its what we were thought at school Gaelic Ireland and so on. Even the old school copy books had a big massive Celtic design on it. It is no wonder it is believed. People were told it long enough either directly or subliminally. When in reality the Gaelic overlords could treat the poor just as badly as any Brit did. I think it is similar to how when African American's think of slavery they always think of them (whites) v us (blacks). When the truth was more complex many black slaves were captured by rival tribes, then sold on to the white fellas. As long as people still fall for a myth of Celtic Ireland people will always yearn for this holy grail 'a nation once again' It never was a whole nation! Plus there is no such thing as Celtic really as it was a mixture of a number of tribes - no 'Celts' ever called themselves Celts! All history is given a spin in Ireland based on the recent political history. Which is why you had Republicans going on about an 'Irish Race' and 'family of the Gael'. If you ever look at the GAA discussion boards on this site. I have found that anyone who uses the term 'Gael' are more often than not, form Ulster. Which is really telling. When Dublin play Meath - Dubs do not refer to Meath as Gaels - usually. But when Armagh play Tyrone (for example) it is normally 'fellow Gael' this, 'fellow Gaels' that. It has been fed into the psyche. And emerges as form of pride to demonstrate how Irish they are. Which is ingrained and tied into, a birthright myth of a UI etc.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Sure its what we were taught at school Gaelic Ireland and so on. Even the old school copy books had a big massive Celtic design on it. It is no wonder it is believed. People were told it long enough either directly or subliminally. When in reality the Gaelic overlords could treat the poor just as badly as any Brit did. I think it is similar to how when African American's think of slavery they always think of them (whites) v us (blacks). When the truth was more complex many black slaves were captured by rival tribes, then sold on to the white fellas. As long as people still fall for a myth of Celtic Ireland people will always yearn for this holy grail 'a nation once again' It never was a whole nation! Plus there is no such thing as Celtic really as it was a mixture of a number of tribes - no 'Celts' ever called themselves Celts! All history is given a spin in Ireland based on the recent political history. Which is why you had Republicans going on about an 'Irish Race' and 'family of the Gael'. If you ever look at the GAA discussion boards on this site. I have found that anyone who uses the term 'Gael' are more often than not, form Ulster. Which is really telling. When Dublin play Meath - Dubs do not refer to Meath as Gaels - usually. But when Armagh play Tyrone (for example) it is normally 'fellow Gael' this, 'fellow Gaels' that. It has been fed into the psyche. And emerges as form of pride to demonstrate how Irish they are. Which is ingrained and tied into, a birthright myth of a UI etc.
FrancieBrady wrote: » I'll continue to remind you that the bigoted sectarian and belligerent part of your 'culture' is 'rotten'. The society you created after partition was 'rotten'. An International Agreement between two sovereign countries had to be created above your heads to fix that society. A whole Commission had to be established to get your community to recognise the issues surrounding the expression of your 'culture'. Your own OO is dying out because decent unionists do not want any association with it's archaic religious sectarianism and bigotry. For once you could have the self awareness to thank them (the Parades Commission) for allowing you a base to celebrate your culture with respect for others. Nobody has an issue with your culture when you do this as we have seen.
munsterlegend wrote: » I believe the island being divided is rediculous yes. Scotland is different as U.K. give campaigned vigorously to keep it. Why? Scotland is seen by tories and labour as intrinsic part of the U.K. and it leaving would dissolve the union. Northern Ireland isn’t seen as such. It will be easily discarded without any efforts by the U.K. govt to keep it. You know that as well as I do.
The_Fitz wrote: » Totally agree re the politicans. If you were to ever visit the north, you'd find that 99% of conversations are about totally normal and not majorly focused on the past. Having lived both sides of the border there is very little in the day to day issues that affect most people. Obviously, as the conflict is fresher in the mins of those up north than it is in the south, it will have a stronger affect. That's why a discussion is needed from every single stakeholder in this island. Debate can only be good, there doesn't need to be a pre-condition that a debate will lead to a border poll, but what's the point in not discussing something that can be viewed as on the table at the very least.
The Golden Miller wrote: » Pure and utter waffle from start to finish. Again, trying to denigrate any strand of Irishness that people may take pride in, once again having a little cosy up to the unionists on this page. You say your impartial, but once again your whole post, like all your posts, is aimed at denigrating those of an Irish persuasion. Where's your long winded posts putting down those of an orange persuasion? Oh ye, if you do that your not progressive right? We could treat the poor just as bad as the Brits? More whataboutery by putting down your own in favour of whitewashing over anything Britain may have done. Why do you feel so strongly that you think you must take this position over and over again? Because you hate Sinn Fein or some other warped logic? Is their something wrong with Gaels in the north calling themselves Gaels? It's easy to pontificate about this being some sort of archaic nationalism, when you've personally never had to fight for your right to be Irish. Maybe it's not a demonstration of how Irish they are, maybe they just don't take it for granted, and take pride in being Irish? But I guess you'd know nothing about that. Some have it cosy down south, easy to preach from the sidelines. Maybe you should try looking at things for once from the point of view of the Irish in the north, instead of bending over backwards to seem accommodating to unionism to get a pat on the back and to be told what a great progressive fella you are!
munsterlegend wrote: » I don’t know where you went to school or when but I was never taught about island unification in school. We were obviously in my times advised on articles 2 & 3 but by the way you are going on you would think there was a government directed programme to brainwash the citizens to fight for a United Ireland. British history in Ireland is in a lot of ways shameful as is most of colonial history. It’s based on superiority. The same thought process continued in South Africa and in the north where unionism still can’t consider nationalists their equals in certain quarters.
The Golden Miller wrote: » Pure and utter waffle from start to finish. Again, trying to denigrate any strand of Irishness that people may take pride in, once again having a little cosy up to the unionists on this page. You say your impartial, but once again your whole post, like all your posts, is aimed at denigrating those of an Irish persuasion. Where's your long winded posts putting down those of an orange persuasion? Oh ye, if you do that your not progressive right?
We could treat the poor just as bad as the Brits? More whataboutery by putting down your own in favour of whitewashing over anything Britain may have done. Why do you feel so strongly that you think you must take this position over and over again? Because you hate Sinn Fein or some other warped logic?
Is their something wrong with Gaels in the north calling themselves Gaels? It's easy to pontificate about this being some sort of archaic nationalism, when you've personally never had to fight for your right to be Irish. Maybe it's not a demonstration of how Irish they are, maybe they just don't take it for granted, and take pride in being Irish? But I guess you'd know nothing about that. Some have it cosy down south, easy to preach from the sidelines.
Maybe you should try looking at things for once from the point of view of the Irish in the north, instead of bending over backwards to seem accommodating to unionism to get a pat on the back and to be told what a great progressive fella you are!
downcow wrote: » oh dear, your argument backfires about their. Your analysis would suggest that if a million Unionists are chucked into an all Ireland they will become far more Unionist
downcow wrote: » And Gerry says the Unionists don't have a culture and identity lol
gormdubhgorm wrote: » I have already said I have no time for people crowing about religion and denigrating others religion as a consequence. Mostly that is done by the Orange persuasion. But done by those clad in Green as well. Plus it is also hypocritical as most people are not regular mass goers if at all these days. But yet again, that is just the weirdness of NI, where majority non-practicing off-shoots of Christianity use it as a 'nice wee badge' when it suits.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » It is not whataboutery merely history:https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:g58oMILlOjwJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/800-years-of-myths-1.1125328+&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie As for SF I have equal contempt for them as I do of the DUP both are shítehawks.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » It is a hypocritical demonstration of Irishness as I have already said. As most Republicans in NI have more in common with Britain (aside from politics) than any sense of Irishness. It always seems like adults playing out a Christmas panto with dressing up flags and so on, to me.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » You will find it is the ROI who has to do the bending over backwards to accommodate NI. Look at the amount of times a blind eye is given to Republicanism for the sake of peace.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » You will find that most Irish Republicans today will say 'we are all the same people' aka Irish so it should be a UI. Same mindset. Not just Gerry.
downcow wrote: » both governments agreeing and declaring that Ireland will never be united
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Come on. Loads of them are so amateurish in NI as politicians, granted there are few exceptions on both sides. But all are so used to playing 'the game' they forget half the time that they are there to actually serve people! Really frustrating to watch and listen to. :mad: Atmosphere up North needs to be normalised. When people can start talking about pot holes (not burial grounds) and normal day to day stuff. None of this pantomime dressing up, and provocative orations about the past. Or none of these 'shows of force' at funerals... Only then is NI ready for a border poll. I think it is way more distant than people think as a result. This thread proves it. Plus as for ignorance of history. I am well aware that Republicans were one of the main causes of partition as if they had more insightfulness it would not have happened.
downcow wrote: » Fitz you still have not told me whether you would be up for a discussion on how stability can be created by both governments agreeing and declaring that Ireland will never be united and that instead support NI and it's existence and prosperity.
The_Fitz wrote: » Yes I did Go back and check.
The_Fitz wrote: » Telling people who they have more in common with and not allowing them to make that decision for themselves is a bit pathetic.
downcow wrote: » nonsense Francie. Firstly the international agreement was to stop people killing each other here, and in reality that means stopping the IRA killing, because most of the rest of the killings were in reaction to their sectarianism.
Of course the OO is dying out. Every archaic organisation from the churches to the AOH, the Masonic to the gentlemens clubs are all dying out. TBH the OO is bucking the trend by dying out very very slowly. The loyalist band scene has never been stronger and is growing and very attractive to young people. This is what I have argued all along is that cultures should be allowed to evolve. This is why money should not be pumped into what the great at the good or the gatekeepers decide what should be our culture. The loyalist band's should rise or fall on the interest and energy of those wanting to be involved in the should not be propped up with money from government, nor should the OO receive money to slow down its inevitable decline - exactly the same goes for Irish language and other Irish culture. You pretend that no one has any problem with my culture or identity. If a loyalist band, behaving impeccably, paraded down the Falls Road playing hymns, there would be mayhem from the locals, so don't try and pretend you do not despise my culture. You are now stuck with picking things out of last century to have a dig at it. Will you still be doing this next century?
The Golden Miller wrote: » Who's talking about religion? When pulled you say you have equal contempt for "both sides", so quote me one post where you criticised the unionists side and the unionist side alone, without trying to bring it back to the nationalist side. Because your posting history doesn't align with this view that your criticise both sides equally, infact the opposite. You harp on about and belittle one side, and one side alone, ad nauseum
gormdubhgorm wrote: » St Patrick was a Welshman a Brit. Most famous 'honorary Irishman' after St Jack. Plus a crowd of mostly protestant English born players went to visit the Pope in Rome back in 1990! Again close cultural ties between both countries is shown here. Personally I don't have much time for all that religion guff.It is just people looking for something to cling on to. Looking for a 'badge' and safety net of sorts. If you look at it what is the rate of regular mass going in NI or the ROI? Most don't bother in the ROI anyway. I think the lack of real interest in religion these days is just another thing both Britain and the ROI have in common.As for the Orange marches I don't think they are a good thing. If people don't like them ignore them. However, Catholics can hardly claim the moral high ground when it comes treatment of those from another religion. You only have to look up the ancient Order of Hibernianshttps://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/make-way-for-the-molly-maguires-the-ancient-order-of-hibernians-and-the-irish-parliamentary-party-1902-14/https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:83jfzeTk9hkJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ancient-order-must-adapt-or-disappear-1.176810+&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie or Ne Temere decree from the catholic church in 1907https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dekHulEiCpIJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/research-finds-protestant-obsession-with-ne-temere-1.120625+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie And of course the 'Baptism Barrier' in ROI schools which created hassle for second generation Irish kids who might not be of the Catholic faith. Only was removed in 2019!https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/baptism-barrier-to-catholic-schools-to-go-next-year-1.3488198 I find anyone who crows about thier religion is always looking for trouble. It is yet another reason why I do not want all that crap brought into a UI if at all possible. But the reality is if Catholics and Protestants were real Christians (in truest sense) they would not use thier versions of Christianity as an excuse for a row. TLDR: Ireland is full of hypocrisy over religion (Catholics and Protestants), people who rarely practice it yet some use it as badge. Plus Nordies are particular headbangers when it comes to religion. If thier is ever a UI or Ireland rejoins the commonwealth. I hope there is a separation of church and state as Ireland is now a more secular homogeneous society.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Calling a spade a spade and a shovel a shovel. I think there is a pair of youse in it both Republicans and Unionists. When NI matures politically and moves on to the next stage of real compromise and decency from both sides. Only then will there be movement forward.Personally I think the DUP and SF are just as bad as each other. Ironically the main thing they have in common is they know how to constantly wind each other up, getting constant digs in. Playing to the gallery. Heaven forbid that they try and look for common ground! I find it gas that for any change to really happen the moderates with a bit of cop on will have to take charge. All the school playground antics (literally and metaphorically) means thing may never change. It is always high on negative symbolism for one side and low on consensus on the other.
The point isn't who treated the poor better, the point is your sole focus is always to taking attention away from what Britain did, and bringing it back to castigating one's own country. Always the same narrative, like I said above.
SF and DUP are both sh!tehawks? Funny, I can't even remember a post from you criticising or even mentioning DUP, yet I'd say the vast majority of your posting history is running down SF. Impartial indeed!
They they have more in common culturally? How so? How do they have more in common with English people culturally, than their fellow Irish man? And you'd know this because you live there? Or your just talking absolute drivel again?
How is Republicanism given a blind eye? If you think that, you really have your head buried in the sand.
The Golden Miller wrote: » The Irish were treated as second class citizens, and denied Irish citizenship. Left behind by the south and British culture lorded over them, denigrating any aspect of their Irishness. Will there be some equivalence of the above that unionists will face in a united Ireland? Backfired indeed! Your own comprehension is the only thing that backfires around here
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Dream on. You're facing an Irish Sea border because both governments have the opposite aspiration. The very best you can hope for is to slow the pace of unification down by making the north indistinguishable from the south. I suggest you start embracing your Irishness and put the Union flags away. Good man.
