gormdubhgorm wrote: » I find it both gas and annoying at the Nordie posts on this thread for both sides which are arguing with each other.
downcow wrote: » Fitz I actually appreciate your attitude. Yes the vast majority of the Alliance party will vote to stay in the United Kingdom but I am not sure I would call in a Unionist party. I am interested in whether you would enter discussions on whether we could sign an agreement that Northern Ireland would stay forever within the United Kingdom. That is really what you are asking me to do the other way round
Junkyard Tom wrote: » It doesn't matter if it happens in my lifetime. The Orange statelet has been consigned to history, Unionist dominance is finished, the unionist majority is gone. If the British want to keep paying for the north while we weave the north into Ireland's economy, and society, then that's fine by me but there will be no going back to the days when Unionism ruled. You blew it, get over it.
downcow wrote: » it has been a very long wait and does not seem to be getting any closer.
The_Fitz wrote: » I don't think a UI requires the attention of those who have zero interest, but it definitely helps. Burying heads in sand is good for nobody. Blindly allowing yourselves to fall into a UI would be a disaster for the Unionist community, one that I hope can be stopped. My community of North Belfast was under a murderous campaign for a lot longer than 40 years. Funny thing is, a lot of the stuff that you have said to make a point, has already been imposed on us in some shape or form over the past 100 years. Apart from the English football team, thankfully never had that imposed on us . Butchers Apron, demonising of the Irish Language, swearing allegiance to the Queen, yep all happened. I'm not interested on getting into an argument of whataboutery. All I want to know, is what would it take to get Unionists to at least discuss a UI. Alliance, who are a Unionist party, will at leastmake some sort of effort to talk.
downcow wrote: » You know guys, I honestly feel a little sad for you when I look at the last few posts and see that your people have been waiting 100 years for the impossible. It cannot be easy. I struggled as we had to wait about 30 years to get to the Euro finals. We are talking about generations of your family that have waited. Clearly many generations more are going to wait. Do you not think we could have discussions about how we agree that Northern Ireland is the end result. How can we make it a place that everyone feels belonging to. What can we do that makes you guys feel ownership and satisfaction with this wee country? What do you think, is it worth starting a thread? On how we can all love Northern Ireland
downcow wrote: » Fitz you sound like a reasonable guy, but I just find it really interesting how you think that the aspiration of a united Ireland somehow requires the attention of those who have zero interest in such an outcome. You are aware that the graphs show that there is a decreasing interest in Northern Ireland in the island uniting for the first time ever, except under British force. It is just not happening in the foreseeable future. I live in a nationalist area, my community was hammered by the IRA. They told us they were going to bomb and shoot us into a united Ireland. They carried out their most horrendous crimes against our neighbours. They tortured and slaughtered them. You are being slightly naïve if you think that my community is about to enter a serious discussion about how we can realise their objectives for them. The IRA have ensured that a united Ireland will not happen in anyone's lifetime who is currently alive. Now if I can be positive. We can be fantastic neighbours. Of course there will always be rivalry as there is with Wales etc. But that can be friendly rivalry. There are nutters on here who want to do away with my football team, my flag, my identity, my culture, my pastimes, my heroes, my royalty, etc etc. it is just an absolute nonsense and is not going to happen. Let's try and help you Fitz. How would you feel if there had been a 40 year murderous campaign against your community. Their aim was to get you to accept England as their football team, accept the butcher's apron as your flag. They demonised Irish language and Irish dancing as sectarian. They said that you needed to get rid of your president and swear allegiance to the Queen. They wanted you to treat red white and blue as your national colours, etc etc. would you think it would be a good idea to enter discussions about how they could achieve this?
FrancieBrady wrote: » You have the three government parties here trying their best not to call it a UI but planning for one anyway and the SDLP who were afraid of the concept of a UI now trying to get in the act, and you have British University studying the mechanisms of holding a BP and you still say things are not moving inexorably to the first border poll? It is much 'closer' than it was even 3 years ago. Try exiting without a deal...that ought to be the tipping point. Looks like you are going to make a hash of the strategy again if you cannot even accept where things are heading.
downcow wrote: » haha you say 1920 1970 1998 it has been a very long wait and does not seem to be getting any closer.
The_Fitz wrote: » Ok - so Unionists will never enter into a conversation to shape a potential new outlook for our island, that is really sad. Your comparison with the south rejoining the UK is a bit wide off the mark. That doesn't look likely and there isn't a sizeable growing minority in the south who want to rejoin the UK. There are no major political players lobbying for that sort of constitutional change. Where was my animosity? We have broadly agreed that 50+1% (every 7 years) will be the deciding factor of the north place in the UK until it swings in favour of reunification. Until that happens (or if it ever does happen indeed), as much conversation about the outcome is surely a good thing?
downcow wrote: » That’s a fair question. I can’t see why any unionist would enter such a discussion. It would be like an Irish Republican entering a discussion about Eire becoming part of the Uk again. Why would you? You have a great culture, identity etc. Why would you rejoin uk and be absorbed into our culture. I respect your wish to remain independent and separate. If rathlin decided to go independent in the morning I would support them. There is no need for all this animosity. Francie, Bonnie and junkyard Tom have all said they support the current situation. They don’t want any change until/if my country decide for change. They have gone further and said that whatever my people self determine they will support. That is very generous and I appreciate it
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Your rotten little statelet is in terminal decline and you know it. The border is not coming back, you're not allowed to march where you're not wanted any more, you're allowed to sit in Stormont while the former political wing of the IRA say so. You're getting a border down the Irish Sea, Irish culture in the north is growing stronger year-on-year. It's painful for you but it's your own fault, you had an opportunity in the 1920's and blew it, you had an opportunity in the the early 1970's and blew it, and you had opportunity in 1998 and have blown that too. Unionism is incapable of reform, it thrives on division but division doesn't serve a minority any more. You are a people without a country.
downcow wrote: » Tom. That sounds like the rants or death throws of an aspiration that you know is gone. It’s sad for you I realise. Had the IRA never existed I believe we may be in an almost unified ireland today. The Ira ensured that any idea of it was put back at least 100 years. It’s ironic, in the same way as Paisley was bad for the union, the Ira was terrible for a United ireland. Thankfully the Ira were better at it than paisley.
The_Fitz wrote: » What in your opinion would it take for Unionists to at least take part in a conversation about a UI? Having a conversation doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » It's July, Unionists traditionally stopped talking to their neighbours and went out with their drums banging out 'croppies-lie-down' 'music'. They hate us, they hate that they live in Ireland surrounded by Irish people. They hate that the towns and cities they live in have names derived from the native language. They hate that they lost control of their little shithole. They hate that they've engineered a border in the Irish Sea when they were secretly hoping for a border in Ulster driven through Irish people in their Irish towns. Most of all they hate that it's not two hundred years ago when they called the shots.
downcow wrote: » If he travelled abroad he would run the risk of encountering them, no doubt
Fionn1952 wrote: » what does your comment about, 'travel abroad' actually add?
downcow wrote: » I think you are directing you anger at the wrong person. I have acknowledged throughout that (if he lived in Monaghan) Francie was really close to the UK and therefore if he entered the UK he would no doubt encounter UK army. Same the world over
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Sectarianism is a legacy of British/Unionist misrule, you consider yourself British/Unionist, stop crying about it and own your mess.
Fionn1952 wrote: » I never went through a RA checkpoint myself. I do know a few folk in Cavan who could've had a chat with the British Army from their own property. Even if we want to go along with your nonsense, a simple drive from Clones to Cavan would take one across the border multiple times. So even without wishing to spend any time, 'abroad' the ridiculous nature of the border would make never encountering a member of the British Army incredibly unlikely. I don't get why you can't just acknowledge the simple fact that living along the border would make it quite unlikely for a person to never have any experience with the British Army - apart from the sort of territorialism I'd usually expect from dogs with lampposts, what does your comment about, 'travel abroad' actually add?
downcow wrote: » Junkyard. I have agreed many times that there was a period catholics up here didn’t have a fair crack of the whip
downcow wrote: » I thought I was very clear. If he travels abroad it’s very likely. If he stays in his own country it would be very unlikely. RA road checks would be likely in both countries in that area.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Are you suggesting there might be a residual sectarian aspect to politics in that little former Protestant ethno-statelet? Are you trying to tell me that a rotten little enclave carved out to accommodate Protestant supremacy where the current largest Unionist political outfit was named the 'Protestant Unionist Party' might have an issue with sectarianism? Are you telling me that a place where the largest political party is dominated by a fundamentalist Protestant sect, where most of the sitting MP's are members of a weird 18th Century Protestant fraternity set up to maintain Protestant supremacy might have an issue with sectarianism? Do you realise the galactic levels hypocrisy you parade around this thread? As I've said before, you are beyond redemption, there is no point in trying to reason with you and you display perfectly, well into the 21st Century, to any neutral readers of the thread, what the nationalist people of the north were up against in the late 1960's.
Fionn1952 wrote: » Completely unnecessary and pointless, Downcow. Not too many places you can go, 'abroad', back and 'abroad' again from one end of your field to the next. Care to actually answer the question without throwing in the nonsense? Do you find it likely that someone could live on the Monaghan border during the troubles and have NO experience with the British Army?
downcow wrote: » Now where would this thread be. I almost detest their position more. The shinners pretend that they think there are not sectarian but they know fine well that they are sectarian. The stoops genuinely think they are not sectarian
The_Fitz wrote: » Stoops have set up a forum on a UI. Hopefully some Unionists will engage in conversation on how they would like their island to look on this potential outcome.
Fionn1952 wrote: » Not my place to make a judgement on any man or woman, Downcow (that includes you and all), I will say I've never spotted a claim of IRA membership from Francie though. My point was 100% that it is ridiculous to suggest anyone living in Monaghan would have no experience with the British Army during that period. A point which I presume you would 100% agree and back me on, right?
