Junkyard Tom wrote: » Sectarianism is a legacy of British/Unionist misrule, you consider yourself British/Unionist, stop crying about it and own your mess.
downcow wrote: » I think you are directing you anger at the wrong person. I have acknowledged throughout that (if he lived in Monaghan) Francie was really close to the UK and therefore if he entered the UK he would no doubt encounter UK army. Same the world over
Fionn1952 wrote: » what does your comment about, 'travel abroad' actually add?
downcow wrote: » If he travelled abroad he would run the risk of encountering them, no doubt
Junkyard Tom wrote: » It's July, Unionists traditionally stopped talking to their neighbours and went out with their drums banging out 'croppies-lie-down' 'music'. They hate us, they hate that they live in Ireland surrounded by Irish people. They hate that the towns and cities they live in have names derived from the native language. They hate that they lost control of their little shithole. They hate that they've engineered a border in the Irish Sea when they were secretly hoping for a border in Ulster driven through Irish people in their Irish towns. Most of all they hate that it's not two hundred years ago when they called the shots.
The_Fitz wrote: » What in your opinion would it take for Unionists to at least take part in a conversation about a UI? Having a conversation doesn't mean it's going to happen.
downcow wrote: » Tom. That sounds like the rants or death throws of an aspiration that you know is gone. It’s sad for you I realise. Had the IRA never existed I believe we may be in an almost unified ireland today. The Ira ensured that any idea of it was put back at least 100 years. It’s ironic, in the same way as Paisley was bad for the union, the Ira was terrible for a United ireland. Thankfully the Ira were better at it than paisley.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Your rotten little statelet is in terminal decline and you know it. The border is not coming back, you're not allowed to march where you're not wanted any more, you're allowed to sit in Stormont while the former political wing of the IRA say so. You're getting a border down the Irish Sea, Irish culture in the north is growing stronger year-on-year. It's painful for you but it's your own fault, you had an opportunity in the 1920's and blew it, you had an opportunity in the the early 1970's and blew it, and you had opportunity in 1998 and have blown that too. Unionism is incapable of reform, it thrives on division but division doesn't serve a minority any more. You are a people without a country.
downcow wrote: » That’s a fair question. I can’t see why any unionist would enter such a discussion. It would be like an Irish Republican entering a discussion about Eire becoming part of the Uk again. Why would you? You have a great culture, identity etc. Why would you rejoin uk and be absorbed into our culture. I respect your wish to remain independent and separate. If rathlin decided to go independent in the morning I would support them. There is no need for all this animosity. Francie, Bonnie and junkyard Tom have all said they support the current situation. They don’t want any change until/if my country decide for change. They have gone further and said that whatever my people self determine they will support. That is very generous and I appreciate it
The_Fitz wrote: » Ok - so Unionists will never enter into a conversation to shape a potential new outlook for our island, that is really sad. Your comparison with the south rejoining the UK is a bit wide off the mark. That doesn't look likely and there isn't a sizeable growing minority in the south who want to rejoin the UK. There are no major political players lobbying for that sort of constitutional change. Where was my animosity? We have broadly agreed that 50+1% (every 7 years) will be the deciding factor of the north place in the UK until it swings in favour of reunification. Until that happens (or if it ever does happen indeed), as much conversation about the outcome is surely a good thing?
downcow wrote: » haha you say 1920 1970 1998 it has been a very long wait and does not seem to be getting any closer.
FrancieBrady wrote: » You have the three government parties here trying their best not to call it a UI but planning for one anyway and the SDLP who were afraid of the concept of a UI now trying to get in the act, and you have British University studying the mechanisms of holding a BP and you still say things are not moving inexorably to the first border poll? It is much 'closer' than it was even 3 years ago. Try exiting without a deal...that ought to be the tipping point. Looks like you are going to make a hash of the strategy again if you cannot even accept where things are heading.
downcow wrote: » Fitz you sound like a reasonable guy, but I just find it really interesting how you think that the aspiration of a united Ireland somehow requires the attention of those who have zero interest in such an outcome. You are aware that the graphs show that there is a decreasing interest in Northern Ireland in the island uniting for the first time ever, except under British force. It is just not happening in the foreseeable future. I live in a nationalist area, my community was hammered by the IRA. They told us they were going to bomb and shoot us into a united Ireland. They carried out their most horrendous crimes against our neighbours. They tortured and slaughtered them. You are being slightly naïve if you think that my community is about to enter a serious discussion about how we can realise their objectives for them. The IRA have ensured that a united Ireland will not happen in anyone's lifetime who is currently alive. Now if I can be positive. We can be fantastic neighbours. Of course there will always be rivalry as there is with Wales etc. But that can be friendly rivalry. There are nutters on here who want to do away with my football team, my flag, my identity, my culture, my pastimes, my heroes, my royalty, etc etc. it is just an absolute nonsense and is not going to happen. Let's try and help you Fitz. How would you feel if there had been a 40 year murderous campaign against your community. Their aim was to get you to accept England as their football team, accept the butcher's apron as your flag. They demonised Irish language and Irish dancing as sectarian. They said that you needed to get rid of your president and swear allegiance to the Queen. They wanted you to treat red white and blue as your national colours, etc etc. would you think it would be a good idea to enter discussions about how they could achieve this?
downcow wrote: » You know guys, I honestly feel a little sad for you when I look at the last few posts and see that your people have been waiting 100 years for the impossible. It cannot be easy. I struggled as we had to wait about 30 years to get to the Euro finals. We are talking about generations of your family that have waited. Clearly many generations more are going to wait. Do you not think we could have discussions about how we agree that Northern Ireland is the end result. How can we make it a place that everyone feels belonging to. What can we do that makes you guys feel ownership and satisfaction with this wee country? What do you think, is it worth starting a thread? On how we can all love Northern Ireland
The_Fitz wrote: » I don't think a UI requires the attention of those who have zero interest, but it definitely helps. Burying heads in sand is good for nobody. Blindly allowing yourselves to fall into a UI would be a disaster for the Unionist community, one that I hope can be stopped. My community of North Belfast was under a murderous campaign for a lot longer than 40 years. Funny thing is, a lot of the stuff that you have said to make a point, has already been imposed on us in some shape or form over the past 100 years. Apart from the English football team, thankfully never had that imposed on us . Butchers Apron, demonising of the Irish Language, swearing allegiance to the Queen, yep all happened. I'm not interested on getting into an argument of whataboutery. All I want to know, is what would it take to get Unionists to at least discuss a UI. Alliance, who are a Unionist party, will at leastmake some sort of effort to talk.
downcow wrote: » it has been a very long wait and does not seem to be getting any closer.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » It doesn't matter if it happens in my lifetime. The Orange statelet has been consigned to history, Unionist dominance is finished, the unionist majority is gone. If the British want to keep paying for the north while we weave the north into Ireland's economy, and society, then that's fine by me but there will be no going back to the days when Unionism ruled. You blew it, get over it.
downcow wrote: » Fitz I actually appreciate your attitude. Yes the vast majority of the Alliance party will vote to stay in the United Kingdom but I am not sure I would call in a Unionist party. I am interested in whether you would enter discussions on whether we could sign an agreement that Northern Ireland would stay forever within the United Kingdom. That is really what you are asking me to do the other way round
gormdubhgorm wrote: » I find it both gas and annoying at the Nordie posts on this thread for both sides which are arguing with each other.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » I find it both gas and annoying at the Nordie posts on this thread for both sides which are arguing with each other. Youse are basically two sides of the same coin as far as I am concerned. Youse are basically THE PROBLEM. BOTH SIDES. As far as I am concerned the Brits are welcome to NI. Cos I don't want that cesspit of codology brought down here, thanks very much. If only everyone in NI/Ulster had Rory Mcllroy's or Barry McGuigan's attitude(s) it would be a much nicer place. No matter what happens in the future UI or not, I think that the Nordies will **** it up. And then blame the other side for it (which ever that is). I have zero faith in any of the political groups leading Unionism and Republicanism. Most looking like gloried County Councillors, and sounding it as well. Clothes thrown on them and being as "Parish pump" as you could get. I would not trust any of them as far as I could throw them, and I actually pity NI voters for the choices they realistically have.
downcow wrote: » Some others here need to get comfortable with their Britishness
downcow wrote: » Yeah I think Rory and Barry are two great examples of where we need to aim for. Two Catholics who know that ‘we are NI’ but also comfortable with their irishness. I have a bit of a journey to be comfortable to being associated with irishness as the ira/sf have poisoned that idea so much. But I am up for the journey. Some others here need to get comfortable with their Britishness
gormdubhgorm wrote: » It will forever be denied as it is just not the 'Irish' thing to do never mind Republicanism. All the cultural links (aside from politics) between Britain and Ireland are ignored when it does not fit a narrative. So many links at this stage lines have blurred. Personally as I have already stated, there is more that links Ireland to Britain than differentiates it these days. It is just a fact of life and the way of the world. Even when I was only a small child vaguely watching the News about NI. I knew it was different up there. I still remember when I was brought to Newry to go shopping (must have been a deal on exchange rate or something). I brought an Ireland Green, White and Orange woolly hat with me (on the sly) hid in my pocket. I thought it would be great gas to put it on when I got out of the car. I knew WE were 'Ireland' you see!My Mother did not see the funny side, and in a panic took the hat off me. And was very worried. I got really given out to for it. Not understanding the implications. If I was affected enough just by watching the news as a child. God knows the affect of living in NI has on peoples formative years. It is no wonder minds are warped and manipulated. It will take years to clean that out of NI psyche I think. Because that has to be done for any real progress.
munsterlegend wrote: » You are in denial downcow about the political realities. The British govt have stated they are neutral on the north’s future in the U.K. unlike their position on Scottish independence. could you imagine the Irish govt saying that about say a region like Connacht Or Munster? The writing is on the wall as the north us dispensable. The only question is when the conditions are right for the calling of such a poll. Peter Robinson can even see the inevitable drift of events.
downcow wrote: » this is one of the saddest legacies of all, of the conflict. There are few other places in the western world where the population are afraid to display their identity, for fear of attack, or more likely, simply because they think it would be bad manners and may offend. The second bit is actually the saddest of all. Most of us do it up here. I am passionate about my national team, but would never dream of wearing my jersey anywhere in Northern Ireland other than on the day of the game (I used to work to the twelfth etc, but I have staff that as I do not want I team associated with one side community). That is purely because I know some people will misread it and think I am trying to offend, or even that I am some sort of sectarian bigot. Actually reflecting on what I have just written, it is not across the whole community. It is a particular affliction for those of us who have grown up and live as a minority. I think we are much more tuned in to the impact of what we wear on others. As a young person the only time I could express my identity and wear what I liked was when I visited Unionist areas or went to the 12th. I soon learnt that you do not do it in nationalist areas unless you have a head start and wearing your trainers. I know I will get slated for this, but my observation is that the unionist community have developed greater tolerance to the expression of Irish culture, whether that be Irish music, GAA shirts, etc. I see Nationalists in Unionist areas happily wearing their GAA shirts etc. This tolerance, unfortunately is not replicated in most nationalist areas towards Unionist culture. And of course tolerance is only the first step, we really need to get to respect, and then the ultimate goal would be celebrating each other's diversity. Q Francie to remind us that my culture is rotten!
downcow wrote: » Your problem is that deep down you believe that it somehow more proper that the island is united, because it is surrounded by sea. I don't believe the United Kingdom would stand in the way of any country who voted by more than 50% today whether that be England Scotland Wales or Northern Ireland. I could just as easily say the writing is on the wall for the permanency of Northern Ireland since your country has removed its claim over it. Somebody was telling us a few posts ago how the writing has been on the wall now for a century. So if you remain happy with the writing on the wall then we are all honky dorey
